Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.
I'm not a Russophobe, more of a Pro-Japanophile who distrusts Russians
Another awesome update, Dave, even if I didn't agree with all of your choices for what's going to unfold in the future. But will we be seeing a map that at least shows us what the world looks like in the 2010s, though, even if you don't plan on going that far, Dave?
I think Dominic pretty much stated everything I wanted to in regards to the Ottoman Empire. It just feels so...incredibly out of left field that it made me confused more than anything else (same with Egypt, for that matter). The fact that we really haven't heard any troubles out of the Ottoman Empire added to it, not to mention the fact that no troubles with its Christian, Jewish or minority Muslim populations was mentioned before. I'm still not sure why the Russo-Kazakh War was as devastating as it was to the OE either...
That gripe aside, 'Ottoman Dissolution' doesn't sound good...for all parties involved. At least you're going the more interesting route, if it has to fall apart in some form, of a slow decline rather than the 'shambling corpse is blown away by Europeans' trope that seems so popular in regards to it in AH.
I think it could go either one of two ways for the OE at this point:
Best outcome (now that the Golden Wolves seem to be collapsing): The OE lives on as some sort of confederation/federation of republics and/or kingdoms with the Osman sultan/caliph as a nominal figurehead.
Worst outcome: Nasty border rearrangements (likely to be only hypothetical and porous for a long time). Bad feelings remain Sunnis and just about everyone else, with some horrific 'reprisals' down the road against the majority. Most of the successor nations end up as tinpot dictatorships in some fashion; probably maintain their independence through Russian and Bharati 'good will'/firearms. Turkey likely about the size it is IOTL, perhaps smaller.
I also think an interesting question (that no one's brought up yet) is what will happen to the position of caliph here in TL-191. Mecca and Medina could be made free states, perhaps, similar to OTL's Vatican City with the Osmans continuing their role there (if things go really south). Or the title could return to its pseudo-democratic routes, perhaps...
Regardless: I absolutely love all the alt movies, books, music, etc. you throw in here. It makes everything seem incredibly real and actually like you gave a damn to make it actual alternate history. I have to say, wondering what you'd come up with for that stuff is one of my favorite parts of each update. There do seem to be issues with footnote numbers in this chapter though (missing in one case, order of whack for a few others).
I find a lot of the alternate scientific and technological developments too. It seems a bit strange to me that we're only now getting personal computers, but TL-191 is advanced enough to try to get space stations on the moon and the like. Then again, what with bureaucracy being much more prevalent and accepted ITTL by just about everyone, I suppose this privacy should've been expected. Glad that we've made some headway against HIV/AIDS here more than OTL as well. Curious as to where Dr. Fleischer's career is going to go after his people map the human genome.
I'm guessing that a common theme of sci fi novels is going to be something like We Can Rule Together among the various powers of earth? In a sense, an eventual and more comprehensive alt-UN doesn't seem too far fetched here in TL-191. Certainly not soon, but perhaps later in the 21st century.
Also: Germany has successfully been integrating, at least so far, some of its former colonies into itself, as has Portugal. Might we see similar outcomes for Seychelles and Reunion (for Austria-Hungary) and Italy's African holdings as well?
If I'm also reading the situation in Europe right, you seem to imply that the U.K. and France are both going to be on the rise. Should we expect parallels, perhaps, with OTL's post-WWII Japan and post-Korean War (South) Korea? It seems like they could perhaps pull it off, if they play their cards right with Germany.
As far as the Kashmir War is concerned, it seems like that's going to be our last 'big' war for quite some time. My guess is that the Ottomans and Pakistan are going to be in for a world of hurt, which will be the death knell for the Independence Movement at last. Of course, doesn't mean it's going to be all that easy...or great for the Bharatis once they realize that they now have to hold down a (likely) hostile province without resorting to Japanese-/Confederate-/Ottoman-style crackdowns. I expect them to be a pariah for quite a while, if they succeed.
Anyway, there was a lot of stuff I couldn't go over, but it was all so enjoyable nonetheless. Cheers to December.
Whatever. When it comes to that issue, it boils down to the same thing.
That's not quite true. Ottoman authority in Georgia has been challenged by Georgian nationalists since 1973.
Because the Ottoman system was already weakened by serious economic troubles and the incompetent new Sultan.
The defeat in Kazakhstan and the Caucasus, subsequent riots within the Empire and the exit of most IM member destroyed
the reputation of the Ottoman Empire as a great power.
The actual Ottoman Dissolution is beyond the scope of this timeline. It will not occur until TTL's 2010s.
If that's the case, then that's an embarrassing mistake on my part. I suppose I can correct the dates if/when I ever post a final version of this timeline.
Thank you. Hopefully it will be thorough enough.
Hope you enjoy it!
Like The Life of Lord Lyons, President McClellan has a lot of elements of what we would call steampunk.
This is very valid criticism; in the earlier updates where I started to go into more detail about the Ottomans (the entire 1960s sequence), I did not have a very clear idea about where I was going, partially because I was only updating one year at a time, which slowed everything down. Consequently, I did not properly foreshadow the problems that the Ottomans would have down the line.
I will say that the Republicans will retake the White House one more time before this timeline concludes.
Thanks! Glad you've enjoyed it.
Yes, in Austria-Hungary, Germany, and the United States. As of 1989, there has been no major breakthrough.
I really appreciated it. Thanks again!
They were exiled by People's Friend Sakamoto to Hokkaido. As of 1989, they lead quiet lives in Sapporo.
The Russian regained the Kurile Islands, their lost Siberian provinces and Sakhalin Island in the Treaty of Sapporo.
As I've said, this timeline will end in 2009. Others are free to speculate about what comes next.
Again, an excellent critique. As I've mentioned, when I was writing the earlier posts with the Ottomans, the slow pace of updating (year by year) meant that I did not have a clear idea about the future. When I wrote up the seventies update (and started thinking about what to mention in the timeline decade-by-decade), then I started to see where the Ottomans would run into trouble over the course of the last thirty years of the ATL.
The 2010s will be a rough time for the Middle East, that much is certain.
This partially depends on wether or not there is still a sultanate in power after the 2010s in TTL.
It's one of my favorite parts of writing TTL. I hope I've done a plausible job. And would you mind pointing out which footnotes are wrong/missing?
The lack of a Cold War resembling our world's has led to some different pacing regarding technology. It was interesting, for example, to imagine what an analogue to our world's Space Race would look like without the specter of armed confrontation behind technological advances, especially regarding Outer Space.
That is a popular theme, depending on who's writing the story, of course.
Yes for Austria-Hungary. Regarding Italy, I mentioned the reforms made in the Italian Empire; the Italians granted full civil rights to the inhabitants of Libya and Eritrea, while granting independence to most of Somaliland.
That was a parallel I was going for, without copying exactly what happened regarding Japan and South Korea IOTL.
It will not be good, that much is certain.
Thanks. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.
Good update, David!
Regarding the "Comunidade de Lusophone" I believe you meant Comunidade Lusófona.
One minor request: Could you give some info on how the Caribbean US members are doing in the next update ? Specifically, the ones in the Little Antilles. Thanks.
Ah, thank you for the correction. The post has been edited accordingly.
I will try to do just that.
loved the update, and I;m sorry if this got answered already but will texas ever rejoin the US?
Texas will remain independent.
That is a rather original development. But, the more, the merrier - especially considering how North America and the Caribbean are one large US-wank.
That ought to be fun. I'm sure the the next two decades are for a lot of twists and turns, which is going to make things even more difficult to make an 'accurate' guess, I'd assume? Regardless, it'll certainly be fun to see play out.
You have a point about the economy basically coming apart at the seams; you're well met on the point that the new sultan is also a bigoted idiot. But I will say that, in retrospect now, I'm not sure why the Empire of Brazil didn't bother to try to bail the Ottomans out. They're one of their chief allies, after all. Then again, perhaps they will in some capacity in the near future.
As for Georgia: well, I never saw that (at least at the time) as being much more than a thorn in the Sublime Porte's side. I mean, sure, it's going to be oozing constantly, but not something that would necessarily get the Georgians anything. Ah well. Still, if anything, I'd expect that if/when the Arabs revolt in the peninsula, it's going to be much, much uglier...
Fair enough. I didn't mean for it to sound like I was whining or anything; I was honestly confused. Glad it's all been cleared up, at least. But I think it's worth noting that Austria-Hungary (which has just as many problems, I think) as the Ottomans is still doing pretty well; things looked shaky for a while, though, in the '50s I think it was? Then again, Vienna played her cards right and kept riding Berlin's coattails, to mix metaphors; that has to count for something.
Ugly indeed, I'd imagine. I'd hope that it somehow ends up being a better situation than OTL, but nothing is ever truly rosy, of course. I do wonder, if the Ottomans fall for good, who the new kids on the block will be in the region. There's Russia, obviously, but we haven't heard too much about Persia (even if the latter's own future looks pretty shaky too)...
A sound point, though you sound a bit ominous there.
If you don't mind me asking, looking at the footnotes: where would you say the U.S. (and the world in general, I suppose) is culture-wise? You suggest in this latest update that we're just now starting to experience a sort of counterculture movement that sort of started after the Fourth Pacific War. We had that alt-Woodstock, Ecoism seems to be spreading as an ideology, and you talked about this new generation shedding the 'conform or be ostracized' mentality of previous generations. At least if I'm reading all of this right?
As for those footnotes...
#24, in regards to the Great Lakes fishing industry at least, doesn't exist. It mentions the Kidon Mossad units instead (#25 should be here)
#25 This one mentions the Canadian bureau passing the fishing moratorium in 1992; no mention of the human genome project in our world.
#26 Paragraph mentions the Combine genre, but now we get our info on OTL's HG project.
#27 should instead be what #28 is.
Speaking of #28, it doesn't exist in the post. Hope this helps.
I suppose that's true. Not to mention, a somewhat more friendly air amongst the world powers (along with the fact there are more of them, too) certainly helps as well. It'd certainly be interesting to see how the world of TL-191 will proceed after the 2000s are completed here. "TL-191: The Final Frontier"?
Speaking of what happens after this is finished: I think we discussed a long time ago about a possible "What Happened to Them?"/"Where Are They Now?" segment. Is this still in the cards?
You did indeed mention that. I just forgot about it because it's been a while since I've read the earlier installments of this thread. I should probably do that again sometime.
I guess my next question is, then: who's going to be who? Or would that technically be leading us into spoiler territory? I think the UK and France resurgent by at least the 2000s would certainly be fun to watch...
With Japan taking a big hit recently, will it be Germany who invents Nintendo?
I can imagine a German Nintendo being called Glückhimmeltelespielgesellschaft and their breakthrough hit would be Donkey König.
I laughed so hard when I read that.
Great as always of course.
Apologies for the belatedness, been really busy with work and the beginnings of term. Excellent work with the update David, I really liked it!
Here's a map of the world in 1990. A few changes, I gave the JWR the dominant radical ideology color, and gave the Japanese yellow to Ezo. I also updated the claims in the Pacific to show the US territories, does it look accurate Dave?
Updated alliances map.
Compact of Democratic States
German Economic Association
Presidents of the United States:
1. George Washington (I-VA): April 30th, 1789-March 4th, 1797
2. John Adams (F-MA): March 4th, 1797-March 4th, 1801
3. Thomas Jefferson (DR-VA): March 4th, 1801-March 4th, 1809
4. James Madison (DR-VA): March 4th, 1809-March 4th, 1817
5. James Monroe (DR-VA): March 4th, 1817-March 4th, 1825
6. John Quincy Adams (DR-MA): March 4th, 1825-March 4th, 1829
7. Andrew Jackson (D-TN): March 4th, 1829-March 4th, 1837
8. Martin Van Buren (D-NY): March 4th, 1837-March 4th, 1841
9. William Henry Harrison (W-OH): March 4th, 1841-April 4th, 1841
10. John Tyler, Jr. (W-VA): April 4th, 1841-March 4th, 1845
11. James Knox Polk (D-TN): March 4th, 1845-March 4th, 1849
12. Zachary Taylor (W-LA): March 4th, 1849-July 9th, 1850
13. Millard Fillmore (W-NY): July 9th, 1850-March 4th, 1853
14. Franklin Pierce (D-NH): March 4th, 1853-March 4th, 1857
15. James Buchanan (D-PA): March 4th, 1857-March 4th, 1861
16. Abraham Lincoln (R-IL): March 4th, 1861-March 4th, 1865
17. Horatio Seymour (D-NY): March 4th, 1865-March 4th, 1869
18. George Hunt Pendleton (D-OH): March 4th, 1869-March 4th, 1873
19. James Asheton Bayard Jr. (D-DE): March 4th, 1873-March 4th, 1877
20. Samuel Jones Tilden (D-NY): March 4th. 1877-March 4th, 1881
21. James Gillespie Blaine (R-ME): March 4th, 1881-March 4th, 1885
22. Stephen Grover Cleveland (D-NY): March 4th, 1885-March 4th, 1889
23. Alfred Thayer Mahan (D-NY): March 4, 1889-March 4, 1897
24. Thomas Brackett Reed (D-ME): March 4th, 1897-December 7th, 1902
25. Marcus Alonzo Hanna (D-OH): December 7th, 1902-February 15th, 1904
26. William McKinley Jr. (D-OH): February 15th, 1904-March 4th, 1909
27. Elihu Root (D-NY): March 4th, 1909-March 4th, 1913
28. Theodore Roosevelt (D-NY): March 4th, 1913-March 4th, 1921
29. Upton Sinclair, Jr. (S-NJ): March 4th, 1921-March 4th, 1929
30. Hosea Blackford (S-DA): March 4th, 1929-March 4th, 1933
31. Herbert Hoover (D-CA): February 1st, 1933-February 1st, 1937
32. Alfred Emanuel Smith Jr. (S-NY): February 1st, 1937-March 27th, 1942
33. Charles W. La Follette (S-WI): March 27th, 1942-February 1st, 1945
34. Thomas Edmund Dewey (D-NY): February 1st, 1945-February 1st, 1953
35. Harry S. Truman (D-MO): February 1st, 1953-February 1st, 1961
36. Hubert Horatio Humphrey, Jr. (S-MN): February 1st, 1961-February 1st, 1973
37. Joshua Blackford (D-NY): February 1st, 1973-February 1st, 1981
38. Morgan Reynolds (R-BC): February 1st, 1981-February 1st, 1989
39. Leo Enos (S-MA): February 1st, 1989-
 First President to die in office.
 Died in office.
 First Roman Catholic President.
 Served more than two terms.
 First Jewish President.
I'm having a slight bit of trouble seeing the Falklands (more specifically what color they are), does Chile own them?
A classic platformer game (think Super Mario Bros.) where you play as a hapless, goofy little donkey of American descent, who just inherited the throne of the German Donkey Kaiserreich. But, alas, baddies have stolen the imperial throne and Donkey König must find it first and defeat the mean-spirited robbers. Powerups allow donkey to run faster and jump higher or grow bigger and stomp on his enemies with his clumping hooves.
Or, better yet: Wolfenstein 3D - One of the first 3D combine games ever. An edutainment simulation game for children that simulates the life of a family of wolves who live in the forest under the eponymous Wolf Rock mountain (a fictional Alpine peak).
They are blue, so they're a part of the CDS and therefore Chile.
I love this TL, great work David.
Overall, do Germany and the USA still get along okay?
Separate names with a comma.