TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Archangel Battery-powered Bureaucrat

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    If the Portuguese are subjected to German influence, since the population is not so pro-German, there might be a governmental encouragement of emigration to the colonies, both to keep them and to release the valve of anti-German discontent.
    Another option would be emmigration to countries in South America, namely Brazil.
     
  2. Matt Wiser Well-Known Member

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    So who's supplying guns to the various anticolonials? The IM, perhaps? The Germans would react viciously if they found out the assault rifles killing Germans in some colonial uprising were stamped "Made in Constantinople", so how are the rebels being armed? Russia or Japan would be the only other possibles.

    I gather the nuclear powers number three: the U.S., Germany, and Austria-Hungary. The main delivery mode would be manned bombers, but the ICBM would start to supplant them as they did OTL (The Atlas ICBM became operational in SAC in 1959 and the Titan I in 1960).
     
  3. CT23 Well-Known Member

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    We going to see more of this?
     
  4. Michael B Doomfarer

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    The Austria-Hungarians aren't going to be a very big nuclear power, probably AH equivalent of OTL Britain.

    I don't think that the Japanese should be written off even if it takes them into the 60s to build a superbomb. There is also the possibility of a covert British programme. As long as they can hold onto some plans and fissile material they can build one. The Germans might demand that the British wartime programme was shut down, but without a house to house search they are not going to completely successful.

    Other powers not listed but would be nuclear interested are the Ottoman Empire (superbombs would keep it up with the big boys) and Australia (a superbomb on the spot would be a greater guarantee on stopping a Japanese invasion than US divisions an ocean away and they could recruit Pommie sciencists).
     
  5. Strategos' Risk Oriental Orientalist

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    This looks cool and is good.
     
  6. jmberry Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget South Africa and Brazil.
     
  7. Euroman26 Master of Science

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    Decades later will the United States and German Empire have a fall out causing the United States "covertly" supporting independence movements in Europe.

    Remember cause in OTL US is anti-colonial and Germany are treating her neighbours as defacto colonies.

    Rememberence can't have deleted anti-colonialism from US minds completly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2008
  8. Trotsky Trotsky

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    No, but it made it the bottom of the barrel of priorities.
     
  9. Neroon Banned

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    And in OTL the US didn't fight two world wars against the European colonies, when those were still independent.
    Furthermore: OTL there was no or almost no trading between the US and the Warsaw Pact. In TTL there's no reason why the US and Mitteleuropa shouldn't have reasonaby good trade relations. Which means there'll be people with money and influence wanting to avoid a Cold War analogue.
     
  10. Euroman26 Master of Science

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    Since the United States is the nation choosen by God to lead mankind :rolleyes:

    I guess won't the German and Japanese Empire eventuelly break down and like in OTL United States will be the supreme power of Earth? Lets by 2050 in TL-191?
     
  11. Nevermore All Killer, No Filler

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    I doubt Japan will survive Hirohito's rule as emperor (maybe not even throughout the 1960s, if what David is hinting at is true...), at least as an empire. Japan is going to still be a very wealthy nation with many nations that, if they gain independence, will still be economically tied to Japan...very much so. However, I do imagine Japan maybe keeping Korea and Taiwan, even if she closes shop eventually. Same with Germany: Germany is eventually going to have to let all of her African colonies go at some point, and will probably slowly give her client states more and more freedom. As for the U.S., they're not really an 'empire' as the other two, and I'd imagine parts are more likely to become states or territories than given actual autonomy though.

    Why around 2050? Judging by TL-191, everything appears to be shorter, and there's no real Cold War that we think of here either. Either way, by the dawn of Y2K, Japan, Germany, the U.S. will still probably all be hyperpowers in some way (you could argue they're all actually hyperpowers right now), with the Empire of Brazil maybe joining in sometime later as a fourth party.
     
  12. jmberry Well-Known Member

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    What did this have to do with my post about Brazil and South Africa becoming nuclear powers?
     
  13. Saladan Member

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    I don't get the whole US Germany hates each other thing. The two were close allies for a little over half a century. The two have common interests, both have their own spheres of influence that doesn't interfere with the other's (Germany: Europe & Africa. USA: North America & Pacific) and it's not like they have that vastly differing ideologies.
     
  14. Euroman26 Master of Science

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    There is a lot of factor in play here. First it will likely take at least 50 years for the former CSA and maybe Canada to cool down enough for the United States to become whole enough to concentrate on what is happening abroad.
    Secondly there is interesting factor. United States have access to oil all around her empire and I am sure that her purpit regime in Mexico will give her the rights for drilling outside waters of Mexico too.

    Germany, however will only be able to have steady flow of oil from Romania, cause its the Russians who are sitting on the biggest supplies in Europe.

    Germanies allies in the Ottoman empire will yes be able to drill for oil in what is OTL Kuwait/Saudi Arabia, but I am sure that arab nationalists maybe with help from Russia? Will try to disrupt this. Hurting German industry!

    Japan needs oil too but where to buy it from? Russia,Germany and United States will not sell it to her, and thusly only place to get is Indonesia.

    Maybe Islamic Nationalists will try to prevent this?

    So lets look at it. Ottaman Empire and the germans will have to commit a hudge level of troops and resources too hold down a possible insurgency in the Middle East and if Japan doesn't get a steady oil supply from Indonesia, it will hurt her too.

    I perdict that the Japanese and German economies will start to suffer from this in the 1960s maybe early 1970s.
    Maybe resulting in a breakup of German, Japanese and Ottoman Empire in the 1980s.

    Leaving Russia, Brazil, United States the strongest Nations on Earth maybe by 2020. and by 2050 United States will have scooped up her sphere of influency maybe simular to the one in OTL?

    What do you guys say?
     
  15. Trotsky Trotsky

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    Euroman has this irritating habit of quoting posts but not actually addressing what he's quoting.
     
  16. Nevermore All Killer, No Filler

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    That's not really a factor of the Cold War, you could argue. While the Soviet Union had to do something similar in OTL for its satellite nations, the U.S. isn't the USSR here. The places taken over are going to have to deal with being what they are: U.S. territories and possibly states someday. They don't like it? Well, I'm sure that they'll probably get an even tighter draconian control on their areas if they get funny with the U.S. Sad as it may be, that's how it looks for the future.

    Also, no doubt that Mexico will probably begin to supply oil anyway, as she's so economically tied to the U.S.

    Assuming, of course, that Austria-Hungary doesn't try to hoard all the oil for itself (sure, Germany may be able to pressure her a bit, but Austria-Hungary may attempt to resist a bit, especially if they begin to get more and more paranoid over their own sovereignty) remember, the Kingdom of Romania is an Austrian-Hungarian puppet, not a German one.

    The Ottomans pretty much stopped being friends with...um, anyone as soon as they set up the Independence Movement. I imagine, though, that they're going to still keep business going while all the while supplying rebels in other nations. I'm going to imagine that, as David said in a PM to me, they're going to become very rich as they begin to westernize in this decade (opening up her borders for immigration and trade). If Russia's smart, she'll stay down and not try to incur the wrath of Germany again, and I don't think the czar is in any position to try to do that either, what with being drained against a small war with the Empire of Japan and the Second Great War.

    Then she's going to face a big oil crisis sometime in the future, obviously. And Japan may to concede several things if she wants as much, especially if things like cars, etc. become more and more popular in the empire.

    Please just...how many times do we have to say it? Muslim extremism will be a non-issue here because the Ottomans won't tolerate it. It threatens the security of the empire that they have, and coming close to dissolving around the Great War's time, they're not going to probably ever take that chance again.

    Um, no. The Ottomans will most likely bar the Germans from her borders if they try anything cute. You're also underestimating the tenacity of the Ottoman military at this point: as another commentator here noted, any sort of revolt, Arab or otherwise, is going to be eaten for lunch, no questions asked.

    The Japanese and German economies? Maybe. The 1960s is going to be a turbulent time for...everybody, I'd say. The Austrian-Hungarian empire may break up around that time (especially if a recession hits in the '70s, I'd think...), or it may become a parliamentary democracy. I'd say the Ottoman empire, and maybe the Empire of Brazil, will probably be the only 'true' ones left by around the year 2000. After all, the O.E. has lasted for around over 600 years, who says it can't last more? Actually, by 1999, she'll have reached her 700th birthday.

    Honestly don't think Russia's going to be a super power here. She hasn't even industrialized most of her areas it would seem (at least by the 1940s), and that's going to take some serious shifts in governmental control if it's going to happen at all. While the U.S. may be the most stable in the sphere of influences, they still may be relegated to sharing the seat of power with a still strong Germany and Japan, if they fall apart. Once again, the Empire of Brazil is probably going to get her own sphere of influence in South America, and possibly be the new and emerging super power as well.
     
  17. Faeelin Lord of Ten Thousand Years

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    BTW, will there be a space race?
     
  18. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    There will be later, though it will be on a different trajectory compared to our world.
     
  19. Saladan Member

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    IS the US and Japan going to have any war in the future?
     
  20. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there will be a confrontation between the two powers in the coming years...