TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. CT23 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Jorge Rodriguez will do anything 'spectacular.' That's not a knock against him per se (he was an interesting character I thought, especially how he turned in Quinn); but his last few POVs seem to indicate he just wants to live a normal life and won't cause trouble as long as the US doesn't push too hard.
     
  2. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

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    I just thought of something that I've never seen touched on when discussing TL-191: the effects of the Holocaust never happening in Europe.

    Aside from Germany and Austria Hungary keeping the nuclear talent, what butterflies result from Hitler (or anyone for that matter) never raping Central and Eastern Europe?
     
  3. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

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    Because I have nothing better to do at the moment, I've taken the liberty of listing the Presidents of the United States up to the current year in the TL.

    1. George Washington (I-VA): April 30, 1789-March 4, 1797
    2. John Adams (F-MA): March 4, 1797-March 4, 1801
    3. Thomas Jefferson (DR-VA): March 4, 1801-March 4, 1809
    4. James Madison (DR-VA): March 4, 1809-March 4, 1817
    5. James Monroe (DR-VA): March 4, 1817-March 4, 1825
    6. John Quincy Adams (DR-MA): March 4, 1825-March 4, 1829
    7. Andrew Jackson (D-TN): March 4, 1829-March 4, 1837
    8. Martin Van Buren (D-NY): March 4, 1837-March 4, 1841
    9. William Henry Harrison (W-OH): March 4, 1841-April 4, 1841
    10. John Tyler, Jr. (W-VA): April 4, 1841-March 4, 1845
    11. James Knox Polk (D-TN): March 4, 1845-March 4, 1849
    12. Zachary Taylor (W-LA): March 4, 1849-July 9, 1850
    13. Millard Fillmore (W-NY): July 9, 1850-March 4, 1853
    14. Franklin Pierce (D-NH): March 4, 1853-March 4, 1857
    15. James Buchanan (D-PA): March 4, 1857-March 4, 1861
    16. Abraham Lincoln (R-IL): March 4, 1861-March 4, 1865*
    17. Horatio Seymour (D-NY): March 4, 1865-March 4, 1869
    18. ??? (D-?): March 4, 1869-March 4, 1873
    19. ??? (D-?): March 4, 1873-March 4, 1877
    20. Samuel Jones Tilden (D-NY): March 4. 1877-March 4, 1881
    21. James Gillespie Blaine (R-ME): March 4, 1881-March 4, 1885
    22. ??? (D-?): March 4, 1885-March 4, 1889
    23. Alfred Thayer Mahan (D-NY): March 4, 1889-March 4, 1897
    24. Thomas Brackett Reed (D-ME): March 4, 1897-December 7, 1902
    25. ??? (D-?): December 7, 1902-March 4, 1905
    26. ??? (D-?): March 4, 1905-March 4, 1909
    27. ??? (D-?): March 4, 1909-March 4, 1913
    28. Theodore Roosevelt (D-NY): March 4, 1913-March 4, 1921
    29. Upton Sinclair, Jr. (S-NJ): March 4, 1921-March 4, 1929
    30. Hosea Blackford (S-DA): March 4, 1929-March 4, 1933
    31. Herbert Hoover (D-CA): February 1, 1933-February 1, 1937
    32. Alfred Emanuel Smith Jr. (S-NY): February 1, 1937-March 27, 1942**
    33. Charles W. La Follette (S-WI): March 27, 1942-February 1, 1945
    34. Thomas Edmund Dewey (D-NY): February 1, 1945-February 1, 1953
    35. Harry S. Truman (D-MO): February 1, 1953-February 1, 1961
    36. Hubert Horatio Humphrey Jr. (S-MN): February 1, 1961-

    Independent
    Federalist
    Democratic-Republican
    Democratic
    Whig
    Republican
    Socialist

    *President at the time of PoD
    **Actual date of death uncertain...I'm just nitpicky when it comes to leaving it without a precise date :p
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Feel free to use, update, alter, ect. this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
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  4. GreatScottMarty Stuck with Laurens-Burr

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    thanks for the list anyone care to speculate on the ???? on the list?
     
  5. Alexander Hamilton The Last Federalist

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    I add my thanks to the efficient list maker. Three questions:
    1. Do the books state that TR moved back to NY (as he did in OTL) to start his political career? Is it possible that he stayed in Montana and became a Senator from that state befor being elected President in 1912?
    2. I thought the books stated that Sinclair was from NJ at the time of his nomination in 1920 . In OTL Uppie moved to California and ran for Governor in 1934 but in TL-191 perhaps he stayed in NJ.
    3. Is HST a little old to serve two terms between 1953 and 1961? He retired as President in OTL in 1953 and looked and acted like an old man. Perhaps 7 years as President will do that and in TL-191 he is fresher and healthier in 1953.
    As for Democratic Presidents between 1905 and 1913 perhaps:
    1. Champ Clark of Missouri. However, this would break Turtledove's rule that only OTL Republicans can be Democratic Presidnts in TL-191.
    2. William McKinley. If he survived the War of Southern Independence, McKinley might still have had a political career in Ohio.
    3. Mark Hanna. A political kingmaker in OTL, Mark might have tried for the nomination under diifferent circumstances and lived long enough to win the election.

    Best Wishes for a Happy New Year
    AH
     
  6. jmberry Well-Known Member

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    May 8, 2008
    I'm not completely sold on a President Thomas Reed. Turtledove mentions after Hampton's assassination that no president in either country had died since Harrison, though I forget whether he specified assassinations specifically or any death in office.
     
  7. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

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    Thanks for the thanks, Ive seen a lot of other timelines have lists like these, and it was fun to make :D

    Thanks for the info on possible Presidents between 1902 and 1913 AH! Personally I had this feeling that McKinley was Reeds VP and served the rest of his term from 1902 to 1905...but I feel better if DBE had the final say on who the missing presidents are...

    To tell you that truth I just guessed where Sinclair was from when I was making it (I havent read Breakthroughs yet, Im still on Walk in Hell), so if it was New Jersey I shall fix :)

    Thanks and a Happy New Year to you all!!!

    ...oh, and as I said before, feel free to mess around with the list :D
     
  8. area11 Goddamn bitch in cat tights.

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    Ok this took a long time and some guess work but this is what I believe the world to look like at the present.
    TL191 After the end UCS.png
    Any criticisms or questions are welcome. :)

    TL191 After the end UCS.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
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  9. Grimm Reaper Desperate But Not Serious

    area11, why did Italy keep all the 1914 colonies and even gain Morocco?
     
  10. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

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    A sad parody of a functioning nation
    Italy didn't gain Morocco, it's just a similar color.
     
  11. vultan Defying Gravity

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    Oh, I see that now.
     
  12. Thon Taddeo Well-Known Member

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    Why do the central asian 'stans (save Kazakhstan) have OTL borders?
     
  13. Hawkeye Source?

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    That was my decision. I didn't see any reason for them to change and I think it's better to have borders with reasoning behinde them then random lines. That was a big problem with the original maps.
     
  14. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

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    I'm going out on a limb here but I believe those borders came about during the Russian Revolution. Many of the "-stans" declared independence as socialist republics. All because the Tsar won the Revolution doesn't mean those borders disappeared, and when Central Asia was given a chance at independence in this TTL, I would assume the Central Asian political organizations driving for independence would include those borders...
     
  15. area11 Goddamn bitch in cat tights.

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    Italy kept them as they stayed neutral in both Great wars and gained control of Corsica, British Somaliland and Djibouti due to the French and British empires collapsing and the Central Powers being unable to capture them.
     
  16. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    May 17, 2006
    Very good map! :)

    My only nitpicks are that Corsica should still be French, and that Puerto Rico should be Spanish. Other than that, excellent work! :cool:
     
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  17. jmberry Well-Known Member

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    May 8, 2008
    I'd say give Mittelafrika the DRC color as an outline. Westafrika should be outlined with Mali's color as well.
     
  18. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    1966:

    January, 1966 onwards—Due to the ongoing violence of the Rhodesian Turbulence, thousands of refugees, both Shona and Ndebele for the most part, begin filtering into Portuguese Angola and Mozambique, as well as into German East Africa and the Congo. Most languish for many months in squalid camps. By the end of the year, the United States, the Ottoman Empire, and the Empire of Brazil all offer to take in those displaced by the fighting, with some 90,000 leaving for these three nations by the end of 1966. Altogether, the Americans, Ottomans, and Brazilians will accept some two million refugees from Rhodesia by the time the Turbulence comes to an end in 1970.

    January 2, 1966 onwards—In Portugal, the Lisbon Comission releases its recommendations for the reform of the empire to the general public. Under the “Lisbon Plan,” the empire will gradually be decentralized, with many powers to be delegated to local governments, though all areas of the empire will continue to send representatives to Lisbon, with diplomatic and military affairs remaining under the jurisdiction of Portuguese government. The Comission recommends massive investments in urban renewal and other infrastructure projects, as well as the full enfranchisement for all living in the colonies. Finally, according to the Comission, the Portuguese Empire should be reformed as a “Portuguese Federation” [“Federação Portuguesa”] by no later than 1980.

    Over the next decade and a half, most of the Commission’s goals will be implemented via the Lisbon Plan. The discovery of oil both in Angola and São Tomé and Príncipe later in the decade will greatly assist in these endeavors. The projects undertaken by the Lisbon Plan do succeed ultimately in blunting support within the Portuguese Empire for violent independence movements in the vein of groups operating within Rhodesia and South Africa, though TPU-inspired organizations do and will continue to pressure Lisbon for the promised economic and political benefits in both Angola and Mozambique.

    The Lisbon Commission’s activities and recommendations will also influence other European powers in their transformations of their colonial empires in the coming years, most notably Germany.

    January 14, 1966—The Rhodesian government rejects yet another request by the Americans, Ottomans, and Brazilians to release Josiah Muzorewa from prison, claiming falsely that he’s one and the same with the militant ring of the former Rhodesian People’s Union.

    January 29, 1966-April, 1972—The leaders of Ethiopia, Kenya, and Uganda, along with representatives from the Ottoman Empire, attend the groundbreaking ceremony of the Ottoman funded Addis Ababa-Malindi Railroad, a new route designed to link the Ethiopian capital with the Indian Ocean, and notable for its usage of the newer, faster generation of “cylinder” trains borrowed from the Germans and Austro-Hungarians. The new railroad also mirrors a similar ongoing project to connect Addis Ababa with Khartoum, Sudan. The two projects will be completed by 1972.

    February 21, 1966 onwards—In Tokyo, General Ishii Yamada [1] is named to head a new military government. General Ishii, who is very anti-American, represents the coming of age of a new generation of Japanese military officers, who, for the most part, are eager to prove themselves in an “End Struggle” with the Americans and the C.D.S. for control of the Pacific. However, not all within the command of the Japanese military agrees with a new confrontational approach. In particular, the Navy’s leadership is hesitant at facing the massive U.S. Pacific Fleet, to say nothing of a general fear that’s present in all quarters resulting from the fact that in any war, the Americans would no longer be distracted in North America, as well as the clear and present danger of the U.S. superbomb arsenal. Nonetheless, General Ishii himself disregards any notion of hesitating from a possible confrontation, believing that the United States is too fragmented and fundamentally weak to be of any real concern. Ishii also orders the acceleration of the Japanese program to build and test a superbomb, which previous governments had allowed to fall by the wayside, over the fear that its success would invite instant American or German retaliation.

    In reaction to the political ascent of General Ishii, President Humphrey will order, over the following weeks, the deployment of over 50,000 new soldiers to Australia and New Zealand, as well as to additional bases in Alaska, the Sandwich Isles, and throughout the U.S. Pacific island territories. For their part, the Germans also deploy a sizable number of troops to their portion of New Guinea, as well to the Bismarck Archipelago. In a private audience with the Japanese Ambassador in Berlin, the Chancellor warns that any attack on Germany’s Pacific territories will result in the fullest retaliation.

    February 28, 1966—Construction begins in Bharat, as part of that nation’s Great Rebuilding efforts, on the planned metropolis of Navi Mumbai [2], which is designed in part utilizing some of the designs of Italian architect Giuseppe Sant’Elia. Navi Mumbai is planned to eventually be home to some three million people, and will include vast areas of forest and parkland to compliment its new buildings.

    March, 1966 onwards—The O.S.S. begins to increase gunrunning operations to the assorted Chinese resistance organizations operating against the Japanese. The largest beneficiary of this new wave of U.S. assistance is the National Reconstruction Army, based in the city of Xian, and led in China by General Zhuang Lin, and in turn represented in the United States by John Lu, through the Chinese-American Alliance, an organization dedicated to supporting newly arrived Chinese immigrants, and lobbying the U.S. government for tougher actions against the Japanese Empire.

    March 7, 1966—In reaction to a speech two days earlier by General Ishii promising a “Final Reckoning” regarding the “Siberian Incidents,” Russian President Viktor Turov announces that the Russian Republic will formally re-introduce conscription, beginning in early 1967. Privately, he moves to re-assure the German and Austro-Hungarian ambassadors that he will not deploy these new reserves to their respective borders, insisting that this buildup is necessary to contain any potentially offensive moves on the part of the Japanese Empire. Turov also orders the redoubling of training and equipping for the Grand Army of the Republic, which will now form the core of a rebuilt Russian military. The Russians also begin, with some American assistance, a modernization effort aimed at their air force.

    April 10, 1966 onwards—An outbreak of what will later be identified as the Heidelberg virus [Our world’s Marburg virus, more or less] begins near the town amongst the staff of a laboratory, ultimately killing five people. In Berlin, the Fleisher Commission is reconvened (minus Dr. Fleisher himself, who remains in the Congo researching the Syndrome which bears his name) ten days later, this time regarding the spread of infectious diseases from outside Germany’s borders. The Second Fleisher Commission will ultimately recommend to the government:

    • The permanent stationing of a major research center in the Congo to identify infectious diseases before they can become a threat, based around the new institute established in Wilhelmsville by Dr. Fleisher.
    • The creation and coordination of an international agency to stop epidemics and pandemics—an International Health Organization (I.H.O.), which will consist of a rapid reaction team of doctors and scientists on permanent standby to respond to outbreaks.
    April 14, 1966—Australia and New Zealand both sever diplomatic relations with the Japanese Empire, after General Ishii gives a rousing, belligerent speech to cadets at the Imperial Japanese Army Academy in which he belittles and insults both nations (as well as the C.D.S. in general), promising that they, “…will not last the century.”

    April 23-28, 1966 onwards—Russian troops in Siberia clash with soldiers from the Japanese Kwantung Army in a series of skirmishes. Both Tokyo and Moscow begin to move increasing numbers of men and material to the region in reaction to these border clashes, with the Russians led by the gifted barrel commander General Leonid Golovin, and the Japanese under the command of the Second Great War veteran Ikeda Yukio.

    May 1, 1966 onwards—Fresh waves of May Day protests occur throughout a number of cities in Japanese-occupied China, as well as in Singapore and Jakarta. Japanese forces, as in the case of previous demonstrations, are ruthless in putting them down, drawing yet another strong condemnation from President Humphrey. This coincides with an unexpected uprising in the puppet kingdom of Manchukuo, where huge anti-Japanese protests erupt in the capital of Hsinking [OTL Changchun], as well as in Harbin and Mukden [OTL Shenyang] for over five days, before they are dispersed—this is similar to the nationalist demonstrations which emerge, seemingly out of nowhere, but in fact long planned, by nationalist groups in the Empire of Indochina against that nation’s puppet government, before they are too are ruthlessly broken up after almost a full week. General Ishii echoes his predecessor’s claims that all of these developments are the result of “perfidious American conspiracies.”

    In the meantime, Matthias Neyere holds another major rally in Dar es Salaam, reiterating his political and economic goals, though attendance is down slightly this year, due to Berlin’s recent announcements that German East Africa will gain its own Advisory Council beginning in 1968.

    May 5, 1966—In a meeting with the German Ambassador, President Humphrey expresses his willingness to involve the United States in the proposed International Health Organization, to which he promises to bring participation in the I.H.O. up with the member-states of the C.D.S. The President also brings up his personal hope that the creation of the I.H.O. could lead to an international accord formally outlawing all chemical and biological weapons programs.

    May 10, 1966—In Bengal, a new wing of the country’s dominant Socialist Party comes into power, led by Shibram Chakraborty [3]. Chakraborty and his followers represent a growing pro-C.D.S. trend within Bengali political circles and society, with the United States being seen as an ideal counterweight towards the potentially looming threat of the Co-Prosperity Sphere. The USA has long been held in high esteem in Bengal, due to the critical assistance that was granted by the Americans during the second half of the 1940s when a devastating famine struck the region.

    May 16-18, 1966 onwards—The Germans and Austro-Hungarians launch two new satellites—the “Maria Theresa” and the “Otto von Bismarck”— from Tanganyika. In Berlin, Vienna, and Budapest, plans are finalized for the first manned launch into Outer Space, in either 1969 or 1970.

    May 27, 1966—A joint Ethiopian-Ottoman scientific team, working for the University of Baghdad, discovers the bone fragments near the Ethiopian village of Hadar of what turns out to be the oldest-yet discovered skeleton of a human ancestor. Named “dinqineš” by the team [4], the discovery will fuel an international interest amongst both scientists and the general public about the origins of humanity.

    June 3-10, 1966 onwards—In Washington, D.C., the Administrator of USAIA, General Michael Root, formally announces that the Russian Republic will be invited to participate in the pan-C.D.S. space program. President Turov immediately responds positively to the announcement, stating that space represents, “…the best opportunity to facilitate wider human cooperation, after so much global hatred and strife.”

    Privately, the leadership of USAIA begins planning for its first manned launched, which is, like the German-Austro-Hungarian efforts, tentatively scheduled for sometime in the early 1970s.

    June 18, 1966—In Vienna, the leadership of the German and Austro-Hungarian space programs (moving their planned announcement ahead by a few weeks in reaction to the U.S. announcement regarding their invitation of Russian participation in USAIA), announces that the new European Space Combine (ESC) will be created to facilitate full scientific cooperation between the member states of the European Community. The ESC will be inaugurated in 1969.

    July 12, 1966 onwards—Agents from the Remembrance Center manage to capture Holloway Bowers [5] in Buenos Aires, Argentina, a notorious Freedom Party Guard who was responsible for a number of atrocities committed in Mississippi and Alabama during the Second Great War. Bowers will be tried in New York City, ultimately being sentenced to death, and executed in January of 1968.

    July 16, 1966—The second American satellite, the “Alfred Thayer Mahan,” is launched from Cuba.

    July 30, 1966—The Brazilian government announces that it will begin a nationwide campaign (as part of its Great Rebuilding) to build a network of nuclear power plants throughout the country (which will not, as the government is quick to stress lead to any kind of project to build a superbomb). The Brazilians will use technology purchased from the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires for these projects.

    August 5, 1966 onwards—Brazilian zoologist Dr. Lucas Braga publishes what will become one of the most famous environmental works of the twentieth century—Noah’s Tears—which documents the impact of human commercial development upon the natural world, particularly towards the Amazon rainforest. Braga will later found the World Habitat Protection Agency (WHPA), which will lobby governments around the world to protect the habitats of threatened species. Dr. Braga’s initial efforts during the course of the 1960s and early 1970s will focus on protecting the Amazon, although the activities of the WHPA will spread around the globe during the following decades.

    August 12, 1966 onwards—Building begins outside of Gaborone, German Southwest Africa, on the planned city of Sonnestadt [Sun City]. Modeled after the planned Turkish community of Bu Kaynak, Sonnestadt is meant both to showcase Germany’s technological sophistication, as well as to provide a blueprint for future projects both in Africa and Europe.

    August 30, 1966—The Russian Duma overwhelmingly approves the introduced proposal to pool the Republic’s space efforts with those of the USAIA.

    September, 1966 onwards—Chile, Ecuador, Ireland, Mexico, and Quebec begin deployment of small numbers of soldiers (averaging 40,000 per nation) to Australia and New Zealand, as part of their security commitments to the C.D.S.

    September 9, 1966—The American Environmental Bureau announces that, under its mandate through the Clean America Act, it will begin a cleanup of Cleveland’s Cuyahoga River. The Cuyahoga Cleanup itself is a pilot program for other such endeavors, and will serve as the foundation for other such major environmental restoration projects, most notably those regarding the Hudson River, the Great Lakes, and Boston Harbor in the 1970s and 1980s.

    September 20, 1966—The U.S. Congress ratifies The United States-Chile Free Trade Accord (USCFTA), similar to the treaty signed with Ireland 1963. The agreement calls for the end of all trade barriers between the two allies by 1970.

    October 1, 1966—The member states of the European Community sign the Treaty of Innsbruck, formally marking the establishment of the International Health Organization.

    October 19, 1966—President Humphrey announces that he will push Congress to authorize the deployment of another 200,000 U.S. troops to Australia and New Zealand, alongside the now over 70,000 which have been moved to forward bases in U.S. territory by this time. This speech, months in the making, is in reaction to yet another bellicose declaration made earlier in the week by General Ishii promising that “maximum force” will be directed against the C.D.S. member states in the event of another Pacific War.

    In reaction to this last speech by General Ishii, Chile, Ecuador, and Ireland sever diplomatic relations with the Japanese Empire.

    November 8, 1966—In the U.S. Congressional elections, the Democrats manage to capture a sizable number of seats in both the House and the Senate, although the Socialists maintain overall control. One of the more notable Democratic victories comes in New York, where Representative Joshua Blackford, the son of former President Hosea Blackford and First Lady and Congresswoman Flora Hamburger Blackford, manages to win an open Senate seat.

    November 25, 1966 onwards—In one of its last major votes before adjourning, Congress approves U.S. membership within the International Health Organization. Subsequently, the U.S. ascension into the I.H.O. will lead to the remaining member states of the C.D.S. joining the new organization by mid-1967.

    December 3, 1966 onwards—Ground is broken in Bavaria on the planned town of Grün Fängt [Green Fields], which is planned for completion by 1971. It will be the first urban center in the German Empire powered entirely (as its name suggests) by renewable sources of energy. Similar settlements are planned in a number of other European nations, financed through national versions of the energy independence plans enacted into law by the Germans and Austro-Hungarians.

    December 17, 1966 onwards—Influenced by reports of the Austro-Hungarian experiments regarding the “Combine” ideas, the U.S. Department of Defense begins planning a similar series of tests, which will be up and running by mid-1967.

    * * *

    [1] An ATL son of our world’s General Ishii Shiro, who commanded the notorious Imperial Japanese Army Unit 731, which conducted horrific biological and medical experiments on mostly Chinese prisoners in Manchuria; Unit 731 also waged germ warfare attacks against Chinese civilians during World War II.

    [2] In our world, Navi Mumbai's construction began in 1972. With the Independence Movement-sponsored Great Rebuilding projects, the planned city’s building is greatly hastened.

    [3] TTL's analogue to our world’s Indian Independence activist and popular Bengali writer Shibram Chakraborty, except unlike his OTL counterpart, Chakraborty in TTL went into national politics.

    [4] Amharic for “You are beautiful,” roughly. These are of course the remains that were named “Lucy” in our world’s 1974; their earlier discovery in TTL is the result of an earlier geological survey conducted of Hadar, which in turn resulted in an appropriate rise in interest on the part of a number of paleontologists.

    [5] TTL's analogue to our world's notorious Samuel Bowers

    ~~~~~

    Comments?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
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  19. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

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    California
    awesome update.
     
  20. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

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    Awesome update David, it made my day! :)