TL-191: After the End

While this question probably warrants its own thread, if TL-191 Earth was in the Star Trek universe how would the nations of that Earth react to the wider galaxy and vice-versa? How would the Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons, and Romulans react to a humanity that is more militarized and conformist? Plus a humanity that didn't have to endure the Eugenics War and the nuclear WW3 (or Third Great War as it would be called in TTL).

Sorry if this question might be a little out of topic, but it's been in my head for a while now since Star Trek: ENT takes place around a decade before 2162.
I dunno, but I'd love to know the answer. I've been binge ~ watching Star Trek: Picard over on Amazon Prime for a while now, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Star Trek fan who reads Turtledove's works.

Would there be an equivalent to Charlie Chaplin in the TL ~ 191 universe, and, if so, what would his fate possibly be?

I am also curious if there might have been counterparts to Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy in the TL ~ 191 universe, and what would probably happen to them. In addition to enjoying Star Trek, I also enjoy Laurel and Hardy.
 
I dunno, but I'd love to know the answer. I've been binge ~ watching Star Trek: Picard over on Amazon Prime for a while now, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Star Trek fan who reads Turtledove's works.

Would there be an equivalent to Charlie Chaplin in the TL ~ 191 universe, and, if so, what would his fate possibly be?

I am also curious if there might have been counterparts to Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy in the TL ~ 191 universe, and what would probably happen to them. In addition to enjoying Star Trek, I also enjoy Laurel and Hardy.
According to DBE, Chaplin departed for Australia, Hardy never moved to Britain and Laurel volunteered in FGW and was killed in action.
 
I dunno, but I'd love to know the answer. I've been binge ~ watching Star Trek: Picard over on Amazon Prime for a while now, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Star Trek fan who reads Turtledove's works.
David already gave me the answer.
I don’t think that any of the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant would be especially surprised at encountering the militarized world of 21st Century Earth in TTL. The Romulans, Klingons, Andorians, and Vulcans maintain powerful military forces of their own, and each have extensive histories of war.

There is the question of how First Contact takes place. Does this come about because of one or more of the human great powers successfully carries out an experiment with a starship capable of warp speed?

Even if First Contact is peaceful in the 21st Century or 22nd Century, it’s going to be a massive political and social shock for the nations of Earth. There would also be widespread fear on Earth upon realizing how much more technologically advanced and militarily powerful the great powers of the Alpha Quadrant are in comparison to Earth. I don’t think that the nations of TL-191 would immediately unify into a world government, although there would be an immediate push to merge the different military and space alliances into a single defense, space exploration, and colonization pact. The priority would be on constructing a grand allied fleet and military force capable of defending Earth and gaining and holding territories beyond the Solar System. Another priority would be acquiring advanced technology from the other civilizations of the Alpha Quadrant. The United Federation of Planets wouldn’t exist in TTL, though I think the political and military leadership of Earth would be willing to ally with civilizations like the Vulcans against mutual threats like the Romulans and Klingons. Any equivalent to Starfleet would be primarily a military force, instead of an exploration force.

A worse version of First Contact would be Earth in TTL getting attacked in the 21st or 22nd Century in a Romulan or Klingon raid. One of the themes of the TL-191 series is nations seeking revenge for military defeats, and the destructive wars that result from this revanchism. Even if the nations of TL-191 Earth don’t ultimately form a version of interstellar civilization as vile as the Terran Empire from another universe, the outcome is probably dystopian.
 
I dunno, but I'd love to know the answer. I've been binge ~ watching Star Trek: Picard over on Amazon Prime for a while now, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Star Trek fan who reads Turtledove's works.

Would there be an equivalent to Charlie Chaplin in the TL ~ 191 universe, and, if so, what would his fate possibly be?

I am also curious if there might have been counterparts to Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy in the TL ~ 191 universe, and what would probably happen to them. In addition to enjoying Star Trek, I also enjoy Laurel and Hardy.

This is what I wrote about the analogues in TTL to Charles Chaplin, Stan Laurel, and the Hardy family, slightly edited.

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Charles Chaplin never became a prominent movie star and director in TTL. An early point of divergence from our world was Chaplin not joining Fred Karno’s comedy company; he never had the opportunity to tour the US as a performer. It was just as well, since US audiences in TTL’s 1900 would not have been particularly hospitable to a British entertainer. He did find steady work as a comedic performer in London theaters and music halls, while also improving his skills as a musician and composer.

Chaplin was in Britain when war broke out in 1914, and was eventually conscripted. He was wounded in action in 1916 and sent home. Any prospects he had once had as a public entertainer before the war were gone. However, Chaplin was able to find work in orchestras that accompanied silent movies. Eventually, he would find a place in the British film industry, such as it was, as a composer.

This career was cut short by the rise of the Silver Shirt regime. Although Chaplin had never been political in the activist sense of the word, he was well known in his own circles for having anti-war and internationalist views. This was enough for him to be blacklisted within the British film industry; it wasn’t long before he found himself in Australia as another exile, in Melbourne.

Chaplin discovered the hard way that there was not exactly a high demand in Australia for film composers. However, he was able to find relatively steady employment in orchestras and as a private musician. Chaplin is thought to be the real world inspiration for the recurring character of Aldershot, a down on his luck musician who appeared in several of Alfred Hitchcock’s Australian mysteries and thrillers.

Chaplin spent the rest of his life in Australia. His interwar film scores would later enjoy a renewed popularity in the 1990s among Australian fans of Fabrika-Punk music, which, as in Russia, was accompanied with a 1930s/1940s “dieselpunk” aesthetic, who used his scores, rearranged with modern instruments and styles, as a basis for what ultimately became Australian Fabrika-Punk’s New Old sound.

The analogue to Stan Laurel in TTL was Arthur Jefferson, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. As in our world, Jefferson had a natural talent for the theater, and eventually found success in the London music hall world in the years immediately prior to the First Great War. Unlike in our world, Jefferson never went to the United States with the Fred Karno Company.

Arthur Jefferson was in the United Kingdom when the First Great War began in 1914. He volunteered for the British Army, and was later killed in action on the Western Front in 1916.

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Oliver Hardy didn’t exist in TTL. His father, also named Oliver, served in the Confederate Army during the War of Secession. Unlike in our world, Hardy’s father wasn’t wounded, as the Battle of Antietam didn’t take place.

The Hardy family lived in Georgia throughout the existence of the CSA, with male members of the family serving in the Confederate military during the Second Mexican War, the First Great War, the Red Rebellion, and the Second Great War. In 1944, following the fall of the CSA, the Hardy family left for the Republic of Texas, rather than remain under US rule.
 
What is the fate of the Jefferson Pinkerton family?

By 2023, there are no living descendants of the Pinkard family.

Jefferson Davis Pinkard’s stepson Frank was killed by police in Mississippi in 1962 while taking part in anti-US rebel activity.

Raymond Longstreet Pinkard, a fugitive from US justice, was killed by the OSS in 1968 while fighting in the Rhodesian National Guard during the Rhodesian Turbulence.

Pinkard’s widow, Edith, never showed any remorse for her late husband’s crimes. She died in 1969 from meningitis.

Pinkard’s other stepson, Willie, never left Texas and never married. He died of alcohol poisoning in 1974.
 
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This is what I wrote about the analogues in TTL to Charles Chaplin, Stan Laurel, and the Hardy family, slightly edited.

-
Charles Chaplin never became a prominent movie star and director in TTL. An early point of divergence from our world was Chaplin not joining Fred Karno’s comedy company; he never had the opportunity to tour the US as a performer. It was just as well, since US audiences in TTL’s 1900 would not have been particularly hospitable to a British entertainer. He did find steady work as a comedic performer in London theaters and music halls, while also improving his skills as a musician and composer.

Chaplin was in Britain when war broke out in 1914, and was eventually conscripted. He was wounded in action in 1916 and sent home. Any prospects he had once had as a public entertainer before the war were gone. However, Chaplin was able to find work in orchestras that accompanied silent movies. Eventually, he would find a place in the British film industry, such as it was, as a composer.

This career was cut short by the rise of the Silver Shirt regime. Although Chaplin had never been political in the activist sense of the word, he was well known in his own circles for having anti-war and internationalist views. This was enough for him to be blacklisted within the British film industry; it wasn’t long before he found himself in Australia as another exile, in Melbourne.

Chaplin discovered the hard way that there was not exactly a high demand in Australia for film composers. However, he was able to find relatively steady employment in orchestras and as a private musician. Chaplin is thought to be the real world inspiration for the recurring character of Aldershot, a down on his luck musician who appeared in several of Alfred Hitchcock’s Australian mysteries and thrillers.

Chaplin spent the rest of his life in Australia. His interwar film scores would later enjoy a renewed popularity in the 1990s among Australian fans of Fabrika-Punk music, which, as in Russia, was accompanied with a 1930s/1940s “dieselpunk” aesthetic, who used his scores, rearranged with modern instruments and styles, as a basis for what ultimately became Australian Fabrika-Punk’s New Old sound.

The analogue to Stan Laurel in TTL was Arthur Jefferson, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. As in our world, Jefferson had a natural talent for the theater, and eventually found success in the London music hall world in the years immediately prior to the First Great War. Unlike in our world, Jefferson never went to the United States with the Fred Karno Company.

Arthur Jefferson was in the United Kingdom when the First Great War began in 1914. He volunteered for the British Army, and was later killed in action on the Western Front in 1916.

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Oliver Hardy didn’t exist in TTL. His father, also named Oliver, served in the Confederate Army during the War of Secession. Unlike in our world, Hardy’s father wasn’t wounded, as the Battle of Antietam didn’t take place.

The Hardy family lived in Georgia throughout the existence of the CSA, with male members of the family serving in the Confederate military during the Second Mexican War, the First Great War, the Red Rebellion, and the Second Great War. In 1944, following the fall of the CSA, the Hardy family left for the Republic of Texas, rather than remain under US rule.
From what I understand, when Chaplin presented himself for military service at the start of the First World War of our timeline, he was rejected for being underweight, and the fact that he didn't serve led to some resentment on the part of audiences in Britain after the War.

I also read somewhere that one of Arthur Jefferson's [Stan Laurel was his stagename, and, eventually, he legally changed his name] reasons for staying behind when the Fred Karno Company left the United States to return to Britain might have been that he wanted to avoid compulsory conscription, which he would have been subjected to had he left with them.

On Alfred Hitchcock, since you brought him up, is he still the "Master of Suspense" that we all know from our world, or does that title belong to somebody else? Another thing I heard was when Hitchcock tried to join the British Army in the First World War, he was rejected for being overweight.
 
From what I understand, when Chaplin presented himself for military service at the start of the First World War of our timeline, he was rejected for being underweight, and the fact that he didn't serve led to some resentment on the part of audiences in Britain after the War.

I also read somewhere that one of Arthur Jefferson's [Stan Laurel was his stagename, and, eventually, he legally changed his name] reasons for staying behind when the Fred Karno Company left the United States to return to Britain might have been that he wanted to avoid compulsory conscription, which he would have been subjected to had he left with them.

On Alfred Hitchcock, since you brought him up, is he still the "Master of Suspense" that we all know from our world, or does that title belong to somebody else? Another thing I heard was when Hitchcock tried to join the British Army in the First World War, he was rejected for being overweight.

This is what I wrote about the analogue in TTL to Alfred Hitchcock, slightly edited.

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Alfred Hitchcock entered into service with the Royal Engineers on the British home front at the very end of the First Great War in 1917. After the war, Hitchcock worked, usually as a technical clerk, for a number of telegraph companies. He never became a filmmaker. In the bleak postwar British world of national loss and economic recession, survival was the paramount concern for a wide cross-section of society. Hitchcock did enjoy going to the cinema whenever he could, even if he could never openly discuss enjoying US or German releases.

Hitchcock did find an outlet in creative writing, mostly in short stories submitted to any publication that would accept them. Of course, he never earned enough from while living in London to make it his full time profession. Hitchcock’s writing gravitated towards mysteries and thrillers.

The Conservative-Silver Shirt Coalition that came to power in the early 1930s changed Hitchcock’s circumstances. Although never in any real danger of being targeted by the regime, Hitchcock had a genuine wariness of the authorities in the best of times. On the eve of the Second Great War, Hitchcock and his wife moved to Australia through the offices of an Australian immigration agent. Hitchcock never returned to the United Kingdom. In Australia, his career as novelist began to finally take shape. Most of Hitchcock’s novels published in the 1940s and 1950s were mysteries and thrillers centered around the expatriate British community. Australian cultural historians later credited Hitchcock and similar writers with creating a “paranoid style” in Australian literature and cinema. Many of Hitchcock’s novels were later adopted by Australian filmmakers in the 1970s, albeit more often than not with an American Nihilist aspect.
 
How are stereotypes of Southerners different in TL-191’s 2023 compared to OTL?

By 2023, the stereotypes in the United States for people from the Midsouth are more negative compared to people from the same region in our world. This is a legacy of the North American Wars, particularly the Second Great War.
 
How are the successor states of Nigeria doing economically and politically ITTL?

By 2023, the Republic of Sokoto, the Republic of Oyo, and the Republic of Biafra are politically stable. Oyo and Biafra both benefited economically from oil production in the 20th Century and 21st Century, though the wealth generated from this was not distributed equally in either nation. In Sokoto, Biafra, and Oyo, the cities tend to be economically wealthier than the countryside.

By 2023, the HDI of Sokoto is analogous to the HDI of the Philippines by 2021 in our world. The HDI of Oyo is analogous to the HDI of Brazil by 2021 in our world. The HDI of Biafra is analogous to the HDI of Peru by 2021 in our world.

By 2023, Sokoto, Oyo, and Biafra are members of the German Economic Association, though the Kaiser is not the head of state for these nations, since they were never ruled by the German Empire.
 
By 2023, the Republic of Sokoto, the Republic of Oyo, and the Republic of Biafra are politically stable. Oyo and Biafra both benefited economically from oil production in the 20th Century and 21st Century, though the wealth generated from this was not distributed equally in either nation. In Sokoto, Biafra, and Oyo, the cities tend to be economically wealthier than the countryside.

By 2023, the HDI of Sokoto is analogous to the HDI of the Philippines by 2021 in our world. The HDI of Oyo is analogous to the HDI of Brazil by 2021 in our world. The HDI of Biafra is analogous to the HDI of Peru by 2021 in our world.

By 2023, Sokoto, Oyo, and Biafra are members of the German Economic Association, though the Kaiser is not the head of state for these nations, since they were never ruled by the German Empire.
Not to nitpick, but looking at the 2162 map, it seems the borders don't correspond to the nations you're describing. Oyo appears to control all of OTL Nigeria except for Biafra and the OTL Republic of Benin (1967), the latter two are Igbo-led and Benin shouldn't be named Sokoto after a Hausa kingdom. Is this part of the map inaccurate or is there a reason for the change in borders by 2162?
 
Not to nitpick, but looking at the 2162 map, it seems the borders don't correspond to the nations you're describing. Oyo appears to control all of OTL Nigeria except for Biafra and the OTL Republic of Benin (1967), the latter two are Igbo-led and Benin shouldn't be named Sokoto after a Hausa kingdom. Is this part of the map inaccurate or is there a reason for the change in borders by 2162?

It was a mistake on my part. The borders of these three nations should be different by 2162.
 
By 2023, the HDI of Sokoto is analogous to the HDI of the Philippines by 2021 in our world. The HDI of Oyo is analogous to the HDI of Brazil by 2021 in our world. The HDI of Biafra is analogous to the HDI of Peru by 2021 in our world.
It seems that the world as a whole is generally wealthier than in OTL. What nations and regions of the world have the worst poverty rates by 2023? What countries of OTL are they comparable to in terms of HDI?
 
Since we know that the Ecological Union of Japan is the worst place to live in David’s interpretation of TL-191, how are the living standards in the Republic of Ezo? What are they’re HDI equivalents to OTL?
 
Since we know that the Ecological Union of Japan is the worst place to live in David’s interpretation of TL-191, how are the living standards in the Republic of Ezo? What are they’re HDI equivalents to OTL?

By 2023, the HDI of the Republic of Ezo is analogous to the HDI of Bosnia and Herzegovina by 2021 in our world.
 
It seems that the world as a whole is generally wealthier than in OTL. What nations and regions of the world have the worst poverty rates by 2023? What countries of OTL are they comparable to in terms of HDI?

By 2023, the Middle East and the Ecological Union are the least economically prosperous regions of the world. In the Middle East, this is because of the wars stemming from the Ottoman Dissolution. In the Ecological Union, this is because of the collapse of foreign trade and the drive of the ruling Ecological Collective to forge their imagined utopian society.

The successor states to what was once Pakistan haven’t recovered economically by 2023 from the Pakistani Dissolution of mid-2010s, or the militarist dictatorship that proceeded the collapse of the state.

By 2023, Sudan hasn’t recovered from the disastrous outcome of the Sudanese War with the United States and the CDS in the early 2010s.
 
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