TL-191: After the End

MaxGerke01

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In the immediate aftermath of the Second Great War, one of the major uncertainties for the survivors of the Destruction in the former CSA was on if the US would remain, considering the prewar fates of Kentucky and Houston. In the end, there was an overwhelming desire by most survivors leave the former CSA behind; this did not translate as necessarily wanting to become US citizens, although some survivors did move north.

If most survivors of the Destruction had wanted to leave for elsewhere in the USA, then the Dewey administration would have accommodated their decisions.
Ok I just dont see why thats not where most would not have wanted to go considering that many of the would have ties to family and friends in the US as well as the US being much more familiar to them culturally and in other ways than Haiti.I understand none of them but a handful wanting to remain in the former CSA but I would think the USA or even former Canada would be more attractive than Haiti. Was there possibly at some point a return to the US mirroring a back return to the South OTL when conditions were perceived as safer.?
 
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Is there alot of debates over the ethics of using the Superbombs during the Second Great War like IOTL? I'd doubt it considering that the Entente used them as well, but you never know.

What kinds of SGW battles are considered iconic in North America and Europe on the level of D-Day IOTL? I'd assume that Pittsburgh would be up there.
 
Ok I just donr see why thats not where most would not have wanted to go considering that many of the would have ties to family and friends in the US as well as the US being much more familiar to them culturally and in other ways than Haiti.I understand none of them but a handful wanting to remain in the former CSA but I would think the USA or even former Canada would be more attractive than Haiti. Was there possibly at some point a return to the US mirroring a back return to the South OTL when conditions were perceived as safer.?

I don’t think, unfortunately, that most African-Americans in the in the CSA would have necessarily had family or friends in the USA prior to the Second Great War. Unlike in our world, there was no equivalent to the Great Migration, and US society, from what I recall of the series, was not particularly friendly towards African-Americans.

In TTL, there were a number of factors as to why most survivors left for Haiti, including a general lack of trust in the US authorities to guarantee their safety.

During the postwar years in TTL, the vast majority of the survivors who went to Haiti never returned to live in the USA.
 
Is there alot of debates over the ethics of using the Superbombs during the Second Great War like IOTL? I'd doubt it considering that the Entente used them as well, but you never know.

What kinds of SGW battles are considered iconic in North America and Europe on the level of D-Day IOTL? I'd assume that Pittsburgh would be up there.

There aren’t really debates of that kind in the German Empire or the USA by 2022, especially in the USA, which was hit first in a Confederate attack.

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In the USA, the Battle of Pittsburgh is the most “iconic” battle from the Second Great War period. The US capture of Chattanooga and ultimate successful drive to Atlanta and through the Carolinas are also considered to be key elements of the North American theater by the US public, as well as the defense of Ohio immediately following the launch of Operation Blackbeard.
 

MaxGerke01

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I don’t think, unfortunately, that most African-Americans in the in the CSA would have necessarily had family or friends in the USA prior to the Second Great War. Unlike in our world, there was no equivalent to the Great Migration, and US society, from what I recall of the series, was not particularly friendly towards African-Americans.
Right I understand those from the CSA wouldnt mostly and there was no Great Migration but Im also talking about the ones who were already there pre War of Secession in the Northern states that had ended slavery and those who had managed to get there , the midwest and California before that.Also the ones like Cincanattus and his family and those who however briefly were part of the US in Houston Kentucky and Seqyoah and took the chance to move farther north. Combined with the descendants of the former and the few Destruction survivors that went north from the CSA after the 2nd Great War that should be at least 1 million or close to it by 1944-1945.So as for that population it also picked up and went to Haiti en masse with the CSA Destruction survivors ? Id really wonder why if so because it doesnt seem very likely.
In TTL, there were a number of factors as to why most survivors left for Haiti, including a general lack of trust in the US authorities to guarantee their safety.
Well again I could see that but only to a certain extent and especially if we are talking about them remaining in the CSA. But that begs the question that if the US forces occupying the former CSA couldnt keep them safe from the whites there then what were they doing ? The Equality pamphlet issued by the US government coupled with the occupying US forces should have created enough of a safe situation where more would stay you would think.Although I totally understand why they wouldnt take the chance and also you have an largely unrepentant and recalcitrant white population who had to be occupied until 1976 ! Every time I think about it makes me angry and its a fictional timeline but all I can say is that if I was there or writing this timeline which you are so you are the boss but if the whites in the former CSA didnt straighten up and fly right especially about this they would be in heap big trouble, They wouldnt get driven into the sea but close and they would not be Americans again-maybe their childrens children if they were lucky .

During the postwar years in TTL, the vast majority of the survivors who went to Haiti never returned to live in the USA.
Well its good to know some did although its another tragedy from the Destruction that it wasnt most if not all. Jake the Snake got his way about a mostly black free Dixie even if he didnt live to know about it but even worse most of those who supported him to make it possible got rewarded by having their prewar lives restored and being made Americans again.The parallels to post war Germany are clear and its stomach churning to put it mildly. Makes me want to reach through the text of In At The Death head south and make Dixie howl when necessary.
 

MaxGerke01

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In the USA, the Battle of Pittsburgh is the most “iconic” battle from the Second Great War period. The US capture of Chattanooga and ultimate successful drive to Atlanta and through the Carolinas are also considered to be key elements of the North American theater by the US public, as well as the defense of Ohio immediately following the launch of Operation Blackbeard.
This really raises the question of how these events were taught to children in the history classes of the mid South and Texas post war because if they were taught factually and honestly then their fathers and grandfathers and uncles and older brothers were the bad guys and in lots of cases the very bad guys in those events. Im picturing the looks on the faces when the question was answered who were the US troops fighting in fill in the battle.
But I suppose it had to be taught if re education was a key part to changing the mid South. I just think that as was often the case OTL they were hearing something very different at home which would also explain occupation until 1976.
Speaking of which how or even was the Bicentennial greeted that year in the mid-South and the rest of the US actually ? Id think its less of a big deal everywhere because of events from 1862-1944 which in a way make it a misnomer ?
 
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What was POW treatment like during and after the Second Great War and Fourth Pacific War?

And what is the fate of Kurosawa ITTL?
 
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What about Colonel Harland David Sanders 1890-1980 -what was his story ittl ? Was there a KFC or maybe AFC ?

This is what I wrote about Sanders and KFC, slightly edited.

Harland David Sanders didn’t exist in this world. Although there are a number of popular regional chicken restaurant chains in the US in 2022, there is no real analogue to our world’s KFC.
 
Right I understand those from the CSA wouldnt mostly and there was no Great Migration but Im also talking about the ones who were already there pre War of Secession in the Northern states that had ended slavery and those who had managed to get there , the midwest and California before that.Also the ones like Cincanattus and his family and those who however briefly were part of the US in Houston Kentucky and Seqyoah and took the chance to move farther north. Combined with the descendants of the former and the few Destruction survivors that went north from the CSA after the 2nd Great War that should be at least 1 million or close to it by 1944-1945.So as for that population it also picked up and went to Haiti en masse with the CSA Destruction survivors ? Id really wonder why if so because it doesnt seem very likely.

Well again I could see that but only to a certain extent and especially if we are talking about them remaining in the CSA. But that begs the question that if the US forces occupying the former CSA couldnt keep them safe from the whites there then what were they doing ? The Equality pamphlet issued by the US government coupled with the occupying US forces should have created enough of a safe situation where more would stay you would think.Although I totally understand why they wouldnt take the chance and also you have an largely unrepentant and recalcitrant white population who had to be occupied until 1976 ! Every time I think about it makes me angry and its a fictional timeline but all I can say is that if I was there or writing this timeline which you are so you are the boss but if the whites in the former CSA didnt straighten up and fly right especially about this they would be in heap big trouble, They wouldnt get driven into the sea but close and they would not be Americans again-maybe their childrens children if they were lucky .


Well its good to know some did although its another tragedy from the Destruction that it wasnt most if not all. Jake the Snake got his way about a mostly black free Dixie even if he didnt live to know about it but even worse most of those who supported him to make it possible got rewarded by having their prewar lives restored and being made Americans again.The parallels to post war Germany are clear and its stomach churning to put it mildly. Makes me want to reach through the text of In At The Death head south and make Dixie howl when necessary.

Was there any information provided in the series on the size of the prewar US African-American population, or on how extensive its ties were to the former CSA?

In the end, most survivors of the Destruction permanently left for Haiti in TTL for the same reason that most survivors of the Holocaust did not stay in Europe after World War II in TTL. Most survivors of the Destruction had lost absolutely everything by 1944, did not want to remain in the former CSA, and did not trust the USA.

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It would be a mistake to view the postwar residents of the former CSA as being “rewarded” in any way in TTL. Their country was destroyed at every level by 1944, thanks to Featherston’s regime and the war that he started and lost, and any hope of renewed independence from US rule was lost.
 
This really raises the question of how these events were taught to children in the history classes of the mid South and Texas post war because if they were taught factually and honestly then their fathers and grandfathers and uncles and older brothers were the bad guys and in lots of cases the very bad guys in those events. Im picturing the looks on the faces when the question was answered who were the US troops fighting in fill in the battle.
But I suppose it had to be taught if re education was a key part to changing the mid South. I just think that as was often the case OTL they were hearing something very different at home which would also explain occupation until 1976.
Speaking of which how or even was the Bicentennial greeted that year in the mid-South and the rest of the US actually ? Id think its less of a big deal everywhere because of events from 1862-1944 which in a way make it a misnomer ?

The Bicentennial celebrations were generally subdued in the Midsouth, although they made an honest effort to celebrate in New Orleans.
 
What was POW treatment like during and after the Second Great War and Fourth Pacific War?

And what is the fate of Kurosawa ITTL?

The official policy of the USA during the Second Great War and Fourth Pacific War was to treat POWs according to the laws of war, and to repatriate POWs after the end of the conflict. This was complicated at the end of both wars when the CSA and Empire of Japan collapsed entirely.

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Akira Kurosawa doesn’t exist in TTL, but an analogue to the Kurosawa family does exist. The family survived the Fourth Pacific War and Japanese Civil War, but was among those expelled to the Republic of Ezo by the Japanese Workers Republic in the early 1970s.

Several members of the Kurosawa family in TTL showed talent as artists. One member of the family, Kurosawa Kaede, gained international notoriety in the 1980s and 1990s for her extensive series of epic historical oil paintings that tells the story of the rise and fall of a fictional daimyo family during the Sengoku period. These paintings, known as the Endless War series, are still a popular tourist attraction in Sapporo, Ezo, and are on display at a private museum owned by the Kurosawa family. Many critics of the Endless War series believe that they are intended to be allegorical to the fall of the Japanese Empire during the Fourth Pacific War.
 
The official policy of the USA during the Second Great War and Fourth Pacific War was to treat POWs according to the laws of war, and to repatriate POWs after the end of the conflict. This was complicated at the end of both wars when the CSA and Empire of Japan collapsed entirely.
What about among the Central Powers and Entente Powers in Europe?

Also, Was drug use a common thing during the SGW and FPW, as in hard drugs like Coke and Meth? Like IIRC Meth was commonly used by both axis powers extensively.
 

MaxGerke01

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Was there any information provided in the series on the size of the prewar US African-American population, or on how extensive its ties were to the former CSA?

In the end, most survivors of the Destruction permanently left for Haiti in TTL for the same reason that most survivors of the Holocaust did not stay in Europe after World War II in TTL. Most survivors of the Destruction had lost absolutely everything by 1944, did not want to remain in the former CSA, and did not trust the USA.

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It would be a mistake to view the postwar residents of the former CSA as being “rewarded” in any way in TTL. Their country was destroyed at every level by 1944, thanks to Featherston’s regime and the war that he started and lost, and any hope of renewed independence from US rule was lost.
Not in the books but OTL there was about 4.5 million blacks in 1860 which included almost 4 million slaves mostly in South by a long shot and nearly 500,000 free blacks mostly in the North by a long shot-I looked it up to be sure,
Assuming the same numbers ittl which we should since the pod didnt happen until 1862 unless they all lost their minds and went South in mass by 1944 between that populations natural growth between 1862 and 1944 and all the other blacks who managed to get North even though there was no Great Migration ittl that means there was likely at least 1 million and possibly north of that thoroughly American blacks in the North in 1944. Regardless of what happened in the CSA why would any more than a handful of them chose to leave the US for Haiti? But if not why?
Then there is the separate issue of CSA blacks who survived the Destruction who had ties to the USA but it seems to me that most who did would go there rather than Haiti. It would likely be the majority of the total if not all?
Then there is issue of the CSA blacks who survived the Destruction with no ties to the USA, As disturbing as it is I could accept most of them who survived went to Haiti while some went to the Northern US and a relative handful would actually stay in the former CSA mostly outside of the Deep South ?
But you have at least 1 million blacks in the Northern US in 1944 and by 2022 depending on birth rates that should be at least 5-10 million black people there by 2022.So not the same number as OTL for blacks and Hispanics but higher than Natives which you have said are also a higher number ittl. Perhaps the same or a little higher than Asians ittl? Most Americans who live in cities you would think see at least a few black faces every day.?Again if that 1 million plus black Americans in the North in 1944 went to Haiti along with the black Destruction survivors from the CSA we really need to know why exactly I would think?
I also agree that for the most part the white residents of the former CSA were not rewarded EXCEPT they did for the most part get a black free South which was really the main Freedomite goal.As ugly as it is it happened just as it happened in OTL Europe with Jews.Also they are Americans again in form by 1944 and in fact by 1976.In my mind thats a huge reward that very few of them deserved. Generally I dont believe in punishing the children for the sins of the fathers but that is contingent on them being different from the fathers.As for the fathers imo the generation who were Freedomites ittl and Nazis OTL got off way too easy.Getting the country back which they did in Germany OTL even in the East really was bad enough but ittl they get a better country by leaps and bounds than the one they had before which is a lot worse. To me the better option would always have been to take the CSA from them and keep them occupied as long as needed and then make them puppets not Americans which was the most they really deserved.Then at some point in the future and you would think by 2022 they could be Americans again.
The key there is that they want it ask for it and then actually deserve it as opposed to giving it to them when they didnt want it and certainly didnt deserve it. Who are we talking about ?At a minimum anyone who EVER voted for Featherston at least before 1939 when there was still a real choice and anyone who may not have voted for him but actively supported the Freedomites in whatever capacity.That is talking about most of the adult white population in 1944- under18 should get a pass but only them.None of the others should have ever been allowed to be American again imo especially since there was not another hostile power hovering in the background as there was OTL in Europe.The US didnt need the cooperation and goodwill of the former white Confederates in 1944 and didnt need it ever until it was freely given as if they ever caused too many problems the South could be turned into melted slag.Lucky for them they were dealing with people who didnt want to do that.
 
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MaxGerke01

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Banned
This is what I wrote about Sanders and KFC, slightly edited.

Harland David Sanders didn’t exist in this world. Although there are a number of popular regional chicken restaurant chains in the US in 2022, there is no real analogue to our world’s KFC.
Although he was born in 1890 and misses the 1922 date by over 30 years ? Is that 1922 date not always definitive? Since Elizabeth and Margaret were born in 1926 and 1930 and still exist it would seem not to so Im just wondering what are the factors involved ?
 
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This is quite a random question, but is there a “Band of Brothers” equivalent ITTL that focuses on the US Airborne and their role in capturing Chattanooga and Atlanta?
 
What about among the Central Powers and Entente Powers in Europe?

Also, Was drug use a common thing during the SGW and FPW, as in hard drugs like Coke and Meth? Like IIRC Meth was commonly used by both axis powers extensively.

I don’t know how POWs would have been treated in the European theater of the Second Great War, but I imagine that the Entente powers, especially the French and the Russians, would not have treated prisoners well.

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I don’t know how extensive drug usage would have been among the different armies of the Second Great War.

During the Fourth Pacific War, drug usage was not an extensive problem in the US or allied CDS militaries. Drug usage was more widespread among Japanese forces stationed throughout the Co-Prosperity Sphere by 1967, especially in China and Southeast Asia.
 
Not in the books but OTL there was about 4.5 million blacks in 1860 which included almost 4 million slaves mostly in South by a long shot and nearly 500,000 free blacks mostly in the North by a long shot-I looked it up to be sure,
Assuming the same numbers ittl which we should since the pod didnt happen until 1862 unless they all lost their minds and went South in mass by 1944 between that populations natural growth between 1862 and 1944 and all the other blacks who managed to get North even though there was no Great Migration ittl that means there was likely at least 1 million and possibly north of that thoroughly American blacks in the North in 1944. Regardless of what happened in the CSA why would any more than a handful of them chose to leave the US for Haiti? But if not why?
Then there is the separate issue of CSA blacks who survived the Destruction who had ties to the USA but it seems to me that most who did would go there rather than Haiti. It would likely be the majority of the total if not all?
Then there is issue of the CSA blacks who survived the Destruction with no ties to the USA, As disturbing as it is I could accept most of them who survived went to Haiti while some went to the Northern US and a relative handful would actually stay in the former CSA mostly outside of the Deep South ?
But you have at least 1 million blacks in the Northern US in 1944 and by 2022 depending on birth rates that should be at least 5-10 million black people there by 2022.So not the same number as OTL for blacks and Hispanics but higher than Natives which you have said are also a higher number ittl. Perhaps the same or a little higher than Asians ittl? Most Americans who live in cities you would think see at least a few black faces every day.?Again if that 1 million plus black Americans in the North in 1944 went to Haiti along with the black Destruction survivors from the CSA we really need to know why exactly I would think?
I also agree that for the most part the white residents of the former CSA were not rewarded EXCEPT they did for the most part get a black free South which was really the main Freedomite goal.As ugly as it is it happened just as it happened in OTL Europe with Jews.Also they are Americans again in form by 1944 and in fact by 1976.In my mind thats a huge reward that very few of them deserved. Generally I dont believe in punishing the children for the sins of the fathers but that is contingent on them being different from the fathers.As for the fathers imo the generation who were Freedomites ittl and Nazis OTL got off way too easy.Getting the country back which they did in Germany OTL even in the East really was bad enough but ittl they get a better country by leaps and bounds than the one they had before which is a lot worse. To me the better option would always have been to take the CSA from them and keep them occupied as long as needed and then make them puppets not Americans which was the most they really deserved.Then at some point in the future and you would think by 2022 they could be Americans again.
The key there is that they want it ask for it and then actually deserve it as opposed to giving it to them when they didnt want it and certainly didnt deserve it. Who are we talking about ?At a minimum anyone who EVER voted for Featherston at least before 1939 when there was still a real choice and anyone who may not have voted for him but actively supported the Freedomites in whatever capacity.That is talking about most of the adult white population in 1944- under18 should get a pass but only them.None of the others should have ever been allowed to be American again imo especially since there was not another hostile power hovering in the background as there was OTL in Europe.The US didnt need the cooperation and goodwill of the former white Confederates in 1944 and didnt need it ever until it was freely given as if they ever caused too many problems the South could be turned into melted slag.Lucky for them they were dealing with people who didnt want to do that.

I’m not sure what making “puppets” out of the former CSA would entail, but if it’s referring to the USA granting political independence to former Confederate states after a military occupation, that seems like it would be far more lenient to the local population on the part of the US than annexation and reunion.

I also don’t think that the US would carry out such a policy after the end of the Second Great War because the US government would not want to run the risk of another anti-US revanchist regime coming to power in the region.

Again, the USA pursuing reunion is not “rewarding” the residents of the Midsouth. It does represent the USA ending an existential threat to its national security and permanently reversing the shameful loss in the War of Secession. It also represents the determination of the USA to present anything as monstrous as the Freedom Party’s dictatorship from ever coming to power in the region again.
 
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