TL-191: After the End

By different Christmas songs, I'm guessing this is in terms of pop music hits (for instance, no memes about Mariah Carey's hit single for obvious reasons).

This comment actually made me look up if she was from the South, turns out she wasn't. But there certain were a ton of parents of OTL 21st century Black artists that became victims of the Destruction (Kanye and Lil Nas X's families are from Georgia off the top of my head). I took this in a real dark turn didn't I.

In any case, I guess I'll ask if any pre-POD famous African-Americans that lived in the South became victims as well if there are any figures you had in mind (funny enough, back when I bothered with the Misc TL191 photos thread, I had MLK as an Ellie Wiesel analogue).

EDIT: Just remembered that Blues is literally called Nameless because all the great artists were murdered in the Destruction so there's that.

I’m afraid that I am unable to provide a substantial answer to your question. Unfortunately, given the scale of the Destruction in former CSA in TTL, it’s unlikely that any segment of the African-American community would escape from its effects.
 
Was there something like Titanic in
I’m afraid that I am unable to provide a substantial answer to your question. Unfortunately, given the scale of the Destruction in former CSA in TTL, it’s unlikely that any segment of the African-American community would escape from its effects.
If there was it would possibly have been mixed race (ie very light skinned) African Americans at least in certain instances.While they would perhaps be viewed as the biggest threat and the most deserving of death by many if not most white Confederates some of them would be much more likely to show them mercy-especially if they had known family ties with them. Not saying it would have been official Freedomite policy just the reality on the ground depending on the circumstances. I have always thought that states with the most blacks would also see the most eager participation by the local Confederate whites-with perhaps the exception of Cuba...
 
With the Armenian Genocide the Ottomans perpetrated being more accepted and officially acknowledged by the other victorious Central Powers decades after it occurred, does the attitude change in Germany among the public that their country helped to enable it?

By 2021, there hasn’t really been a reappraisal or reckoning in the German Empire with their First Great War-era alliance with the Ottoman Empire.
 
With Greece being neutral during both wars, are there population transfers between them and the Turks in exchange for Greeks and other persecuted groups in their genocide?

While there was not a conflict in TTL akin to our world’s Greco-Turkish War, the Kingdom of Greece did absorb a large number of Greek refugees from the Ottoman Empire during and after the First Great War. The end result was that although there wasn’t a major war between the Kingdom of Greece and the Ottoman Empire, the Kingdom of Greece ultimately absorbed a roughly similar number of Greek refugees in comparison to our world.
 
While there was not a conflict in TTL akin to our world’s Greco-Turkish War, the Kingdom of Greece did absorb a large number of Greek refugees from the Ottoman Empire during and after the First Great War. The end result was that although there wasn’t a major war between the Kingdom of Greece and the Ottoman Empire, the Kingdom of Greece ultimately absorbed a roughly similar number of Greek refugees in comparison to our world.
Good. On that note, does Aristotle Onassis and family escape ITTL? What does he make his career in if so?
 
What's the statuses of the following Axis collaborators of OTL?
Belgium
--Staf Declerq
--Léon Degrelle
--Hendrik Elias
--Ward Hermans
--Joris Van Severen
Burma
--Ba Maw
Croatia
--Mile Budak
--Jure Francetić
--Slavko Kvartenik
--Nikola Mandić
--Ante Pavelić
Czechoslovakia
--Emil Hácha
--Jozef Tiso
Denmark
--Frits Clausen
Hungary
--Ferenc Szálasi
India
--Subhas Chandra Bose (Does he lead a successful rebellion, secure independence, and perhaps be a prominent politician in the new Bharat?)
Iraq
--Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani
Israel-Palestine
--Amin Al-Husseini
Latvia
--Viktors Arājs
Lithuania
--Kazys Škirpa
Netherlands
--Anton Mussert
Norway
--Vidkun Quisling (Collaboration with the invading British?)
Mengjiang
--Demchugdongrub
Philippines
--José P. Laurel
Russia
--Sergei Bunyachenko
--Bronislav Kaminski
--Konstantin Rodzaevsky (Secretary General of the Russian Fascist Party and Japanese collaborator IOTL. With the Whites wining the Civil War, does he rise to prominence?)
--Andrey Vlasov
--Anastasy Vonsyatsky (IOTL he was arrested and went to prison in the US for engaging in contacts with the Nazis. Does he become prominent post-Civil War.)
Serbia
--Pavle Đurišić*
--Dobroslav Jevđević*
--Draža Mihailović*
--Milan Nedić
--Kosta Milovanović*
Slovenia
--Leon Rupnik
Thailand
--Plaek Phibunsongkhram ("Marshal P")
Ukraine
--Stepan Bandera*
--Mykhaylo Omelianovych-Pavlenko
--Roman Shukhevych*
--Yaroslav Stetsko
Vietnam
--Bảo Đại (Last Emperor of Vietnam)

*selective role
I recommend you split answering these on a country-by-country basis.
Edit: a couple more added.
 
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What's the statuses of the following Axis collaborators of OTL?
Belgium
--Staf Declerq
--Léon Degrelle
--Hendrik Elias
--Ward Hermans
--Joris Van Severen
Burma
--Ba Maw
Croatia
--Mile Budak
--Slavko Kvartenik
--Nikola Mandić
--Ante Pavelić
Czechoslovakia
--Emil Hácha
--Jozef Tiso
Denmark
--Frits Clausen
Hungary
--Ferenc Szálasi
India
--Subhas Chandra Bose (Does he lead a successful rebellion, secure independence, and perhaps be a prominent politician in the new Bharat?)
Latvia
--Viktors Arājs
Lithuania
--Kazys Škirpa
Netherlands
--Anton Mussert
Norway
--Vidkun Quisling (Collaboration with the invading British?)
Mengjiang
--Demchugdongrub
Philippines
--José P. Laurel
Russia
--Sergei Bunyachenko
--Bronislav Kaminski
--Konstantin Rodzaevsky (Secretary General of the Russian Fascist Party and Japanese collaborator IOTL. With the Whites wining the Civil War, does he rise to prominence?)
--Andrey Vlasov
--Anastasy Vonsyatsky (IOTL he was arrested and went to prison in the US for engaging in contacts with the Nazis. Does he become prominent post-Civil War.)
Serbia
--Pavle Đurišić*
--Dobroslav Jevđević*
--Draža Mihailović*
--Milan Nedić
--Kosta Milovanović*
Slovenia
--Leon Rupnik
Thailand
--Plaek Phibunsongkhram ("Marshal P")
Ukraine
--Stepan Bandera*
--Mykhaylo Omelianovych-Pavlenko
--Roman Shukhevych*
--Yaroslav Stetsko
Vietnam
--Bảo Đại (Last Emperor of Vietnam)

*selective role
I recommend you split answering these on a country-by-country basis.
Had to split Franch collaborators from the list so you could reply to it on its own.
France
--Joseph Barthélemy
--René Bousquet
--Marcel Bucard
--Robert Brasillach
--Alexis Carrel (Nobel Prize laureate in biology who led a eugenics/euthanasia program in tandem with the Nazis.)
--Jean Chiappe
--Francois Darlan
--Joseph Darnand
--Louis Darquier
--Marcel Déat
--Eugène Deloncle
--Jacques Doriot
--Philippe Henriot
--Charles Hunztinger
--Charles Maurras (Most speculated to be PM during GW2 as Action Française co-founder and leader by fans and users. Is he in your head cannon?)
--Charles Nougès
--Maurice Papon
--Philippe Pétain
--Pierre Pucheau
--Maurice Pujo (Action Française co-founder)
--Xavier Vallat
--Maxime Weygand
 
Good. On that note, does Aristotle Onassis and family escape ITTL? What does he make his career in if so?

The analogue to Aristotle Onassis in TTL, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. His family left the Ottoman Empire for Greece in 1917, following the end of the First Great War. The Onassis family settled in Athens, and struggled to rebuild their lives after losing their property in the Ottoman Empire. Aristotle Onassis never left Greece for extended periods, and did not become a wealthy businessman, although he did ultimately saved enough money from working in various jobs to retire in relative comfort. By 2021, two of his grandsons are officers in the Greek army.
 
Was there something like Titanic in

If there was it would possibly have been mixed race (ie very light skinned) African Americans at least in certain instances.While they would perhaps be viewed as the biggest threat and the most deserving of death by many if not most white Confederates some of them would be much more likely to show them mercy-especially if they had known family ties with them. Not saying it would have been official Freedomite policy just the reality on the ground depending on the circumstances. I have always thought that states with the most blacks would also see the most eager participation by the local Confederate whites-with perhaps the exception of Cuba...

I don’t know if there the Titanic disaster also occurred in TTL.
 
What's the statuses of the following Axis collaborators of OTL?
Belgium
--Staf Declerq
--Léon Degrelle
--Hendrik Elias
--Ward Hermans
--Joris Van Severen
Burma
--Ba Maw
Croatia
--Mile Budak
--Slavko Kvartenik
--Nikola Mandić
--Ante Pavelić
Czechoslovakia
--Emil Hácha
--Jozef Tiso
Denmark
--Frits Clausen
Hungary
--Ferenc Szálasi
India
--Subhas Chandra Bose (Does he lead a successful rebellion, secure independence, and perhaps be a prominent politician in the new Bharat?)
Latvia
--Viktors Arājs
Lithuania
--Kazys Škirpa
Netherlands
--Anton Mussert
Norway
--Vidkun Quisling (Collaboration with the invading British?)
Mengjiang
--Demchugdongrub
Philippines
--José P. Laurel
Russia
--Sergei Bunyachenko
--Bronislav Kaminski
--Konstantin Rodzaevsky (Secretary General of the Russian Fascist Party and Japanese collaborator IOTL. With the Whites wining the Civil War, does he rise to prominence?)
--Andrey Vlasov
--Anastasy Vonsyatsky (IOTL he was arrested and went to prison in the US for engaging in contacts with the Nazis. Does he become prominent post-Civil War.)
Serbia
--Pavle Đurišić*
--Dobroslav Jevđević*
--Draža Mihailović*
--Milan Nedić
--Kosta Milovanović*
Slovenia
--Leon Rupnik
Thailand
--Plaek Phibunsongkhram ("Marshal P")
Ukraine
--Stepan Bandera*
--Mykhaylo Omelianovych-Pavlenko
--Roman Shukhevych*
--Yaroslav Stetsko
Vietnam
--Bảo Đại (Last Emperor of Vietnam)

*selective role
I recommend you split answering these on a country-by-country basis.

Before I post my replies, I will repeat the caveat that these replies do not reflect what Turtledove himself would consider to be canon in the world of TL-191, but is canon in this ATL.

-
Ba Maw’s analogue in TTL, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Unlike in our world, Ba Maw never went into Burmese politics, beginning an academic career in Rangoon prior to the outbreak of the Second Great War. Ba Maw fled Burma during the Japanese invasion at the end of the SGW, and eventually joined the Burmese refugee community in Delhi, which was the largest Burmese refugee community in Bharat. Ba Maw did not return to Burma until after the end of the Fourth Pacific War, but would leave again for Bharat in the early 1970s after running afoul of the country’s military rulers. He died in exile, still living in Delhi, in 1978.

-
Subhas Chandra Bose’s analogue, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Bose became involved in the growing pro-independence nationalist moment in British-ruled India after the end of the First Great War, but would eventually split from the Indian National Congress by the end of the 1920s over the question of Bengali independence, which Bose came to favor over the cause of a hypothetical independent India.

Bose, by the early 1930s, was engaged fully in the cause of Bengali independence. He was arrested by the British in 1934, as part of an early crackdown by the new British Coalition government on nationalist leaders in India. He died in prison in 1936, under mysterious circumstances. It would not be until 1974 that historians, working in both Bengal and the United Kingdom, were able to confirm that Bose had been murdered on direct orders from the Coalition government.

-
Bao Dai, in TTL, was the Emperor of the Japanese puppet state of Indochina following Japan’s acquisition of Indochina from France. During the Fourth Pacific War, Bao Dai reigned over a collapsing state, as the Japanese and Imperial Indochinese forces faced multiple revolts from Vietnamese, Laotian, and Cambodian groups. In September 1969, following the fall of Saigon to Vietnamese rebel and CDS forces, Bao Dai was captured and summarily executed by Vietnamese rebel soldiers.
 
I don’t know if there the Titanic disaster also occurred in TTL.
Right after I typed that I realized you wouldnt since HT did not mention it and I thought I had erased that comment.I always thought it would be interesting if there was with the ship having a UK/Confederacy itinerary and perhaps being felled by a hurricane or something other than a iceberg.
 
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Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because by TTL’s 2022, Texas would’ve been independent for almost longer than it would’ve been a part of either the USA or CSA.
Whatever it is chances are its light on the period between say 1933-1944-to the detriment of the students there
 
Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because by TTL’s 2022, Texas would’ve been independent for almost longer than it would’ve been a part of either the USA or CSA.
Im thinking more like how Poland OTL in some ways fails to acknowledge that some of the worst acts of the Holocaust occurred on its soil and with the help of some of its citizens.Texas has probably preserved anything to do with Camps Determination and Humble only because the USA insisted...
 
Im thinking more like how Poland OTL in some ways fails to acknowledge that some of the worst acts of the Holocaust occurred on its soil and with the help of some of its citizens.Texas has probably preserved anything to do with Camps Determination and Humble only because the USA insisted...
It can't really be like Poland since Poland was a victim with non-Jewish polish citizens suffering heavily as well, while Texas was a full part and complicit in the Confederacy.
 
Or it would be like how Austria taught its history for the first couple of generations after WWII OTL and say that Texas was one of the first victims of Featherston.
 
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