TL-191: After the End

David bar Elias

Burnsie said:
How is “American culture” viewed ITTL without Texas and the mass consumerism kicked off in OTL’s 1950’s?
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By 2021, US culture, while still influential around the world, is not as influential as it was in our world’s 20th Century. It also took longer for the idea of a global culture, or a global market for popular music or film, to emerge in comparison to OTL.

US culture is also very different by 2021 in comparison to our world. Rock’n’ Roll, along with its related genres, doesn’t exist. Neither does the Blues in any recognizable form. The US film industry never developed anything along the lines of the mega franchises of our world.
 

David bar Elias

TheDetailer said:
How would TTL’s European countries react to their OTL counterparts? Specifically during the WW1 and WW2 phases?
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I imagine that the Austro-Hungarians and Germans of TTL would be appalled at the loss of the Central Powers in our world’s First World War and would be horrified by the atrocities and crimes committed by the Germans during our world’s Second World War.

Likewise, I imagine that the British and French in TTL would be pleased at the ultimate Allied military victories in both of the World Wars in our world, and at the USA being a military ally in both conflicts, instead of an enemy. The British and French would also be horrified by the crimes and atrocities committed by the Germans during our world’s Second World War.

There are some developments from OTL that none of the TL-191 European powers would necessarily expect, such as our world’s First World War resulting in the fall of the ruling dynasties of Austria-Hungary, Germany, the Ottoman Empire, and Russia, or the successful emergence of a communist regime in the former Russian Empire.
 
Burnsie

Burnsie

By 2021 are there any sports that are popular in the US besides football? Did Basketball or Hockey ever become popular outside the Canadian states?
 

David bar Elias

Burnsie said:
By 2021 are there any sports that are popular in the US besides football? Did Basketball or Hockey ever become popular outside the Canadian states?
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By 2021, professional hockey is more popular in the USA in comparison to our world. Basketball and soccer are both fairly popular across the USA, though not to the extent as football. Baseball is still mostly a regional sport mostly popular in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic states.
 

BigAbeRangel

David bar Elias said:
By 2021, Belgium has been annexed into the German Empire. The status of Belgium has not changed by 2162.

The Kingdom of Poland, the Kingdom of Belarus, and the Kingdom of Ukraine are still under German and Austro-Hungarian influence by 2021, and are closely allied politically with both Berlin and Vienna through the European Community and a network of mutual defense treaties.
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Questions on the Eastern client states.
First Poland: Who got to rule Poland and to the present? Archduke Charles Stephen and his descendants? Also, how did Poland manage to prevent some of their territories being annexed by the Germans (whom had ulterior motives IOTL and planned to ethnically cleanse the Poles during WWI in the event of victory from annexed land), and how would the Oath Crisis have been solved? The Poles would protest such action and the victorious CP would not want to deal after tiredly winning the war, and so they give in to them IMO. I myself have thought of writing the idea out on Filling the Gaps and how it would have resulted.

On Belarus: Who rules them? IOTL there was the Belarussian Democratic Republic, which existed between the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and the Soviet takeover. There was a mixed stance regarding them by the Germans, but as far as I know there weren't any plans to make them a kingdom and would've considered them as part of their MittelEuropa plan. Me personally, I don't see them as a kingdom but the same Republic as a German client state ITTL.

On Ukraine: Who rules them? Are they under one of the CP's royal families or are they ruled by the Skoropadskyis? IOTL after the Russians withdrew, Ukraine was briefly a CP-backed dictatorship ruled by Pavlo Skoropadskyi as Hetman of Ukraine before the CP lost WWI and the Ukrainian People's Republic was back in power. Not to sound nitpicky, but this is what IMO would be the most plausible scenario ITTL, though not as a "monarchy" per se.

Are one or more the Baltic states under monarchs or all as republics? There's no formal view on what resulted in the books, but it safe to say for this thread that they're all most likely independent German-backed republics and no United Baltic Duchy was ever created.
 

David bar Elias

BigAbeRangel said:
Questions on the Eastern client states.
First Poland: Who got to rule Poland and to the present? Archduke Charles Stephen and his descendants? Also, how did Poland manage to prevent some of their territories being annexed by the Germans (whom had ulterior motives IOTL and planned to ethnically cleanse the Poles during WWI in the event of victory from annexed land), and how would the Oath Crisis have been solved? The Poles would protest such action and the victorious CP would not want to deal after tiredly winning the war, and so they give in to them IMO. I myself have thought of writing the idea out on Filling the Gaps and how it would have resulted.

On Belarus: Who rules them? IOTL there was the Belarussian Democratic Republic, which existed between the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and the Soviet takeover. There was a mixed stance regarding them by the Germans, but as far as I know there weren't any plans to make them a kingdom and would've considered them as part of their MittelEuropa plan. Me personally, I don't see them as a kingdom but the same Republic as a German client state ITTL.

On Ukraine: Who rules them? Are they under one of the CP's royal families or are they ruled by the Skoropadskyis? IOTL after the Russians withdrew, Ukraine was briefly a CP-backed dictatorship ruled by Pavlo Skoropadskyi as Hetman of Ukraine before the CP lost WWI and the Ukrainian People's Republic was back in power. Not to sound nitpicky, but this is what IMO would be the most plausible scenario ITTL, though not as a "monarchy" per se.

Are one or more the Baltic states under monarchs or all as republics? There's no formal view on what resulted in the books, but it safe to say for this thread that they're all most likely independent German-backed republics and no United Baltic Duchy was ever created.
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By 2021, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by a royal family descended from the kingdom’s first ruler, Archduke Charles Stephen of Austria. While the German Empire did annex territory on its eastern borders after the end of the First Great War, the Germans did not systematically try to expel non-Germans, such as Poles and Jews, from newly acquired territory.

The Kingdom of Belarus is ruled by a Hohenzollern monarch by 2021. The Kingdom of Ukraine and the Kingdom of Finland are also ruled by Hohenzollern monarchs by 2021. The Kingdom of Lithuania is ruled by a monarch descended from the country’s first post-First Great War king, Mindaugas II. Latvia and Estonia are both grand duchies; the ruling Grand Dukes of Latvia and Estonia are both descended from German aristocrats who were placed into their positions of power by the German Empire after the First Great War.
 

BigAbeRangel

David bar Elias said:
By 2021, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by a royal family descended from the kingdom’s first ruler, Archduke Charles Stephen of Austria. While the German Empire did annex territory on its eastern borders after the end of the First Great War, the Germans did not systematically try to expel non-Germans, such as Poles and Jews, from newly acquired territory.

The Kingdom of Belarus is ruled by a Hohenzollern monarch by 2021. The Kingdom of Ukraine and the Kingdom of Finland are also ruled by Hohenzollern monarchs by 2021. The Kingdom of Lithuania is ruled by a monarch descended from the country’s first post-First Great War king, Mindaugas II. Latvia and Estonia are both grand duchies; the ruling Grand Dukes of Latvia and Estonia are both descended from German aristocrats who were placed into their positions of power by the German Empire after the First Great War.
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Thanks. What becomes of Skoropadskyi since he doesn't come to be the ruler? Prime Minister? How were compromises made between different political factions to stabilize (e.g with Symon Petliura and other left wingers)?
Also, how were nationalist tensions quelled and compromised in the Baltic States? On Finland, I'd disagree that they become a monarchy as they were actually offered the post but they respectfully declined it IOTL. Prince Frederick Charles may take the throne after being offered it, but there wasn't a strong monarchist movement in Finland itself and negotiations may still break down in Parliament. I'd personally see it as the same result, but feel free to disagree with me. Also the books make no mention of Finland ever being a monarchy, but as under occupation (albeit inconsistently).
On Poland again, did they get to annex any Polish-inhabited territories from Austria-Hungary (like Krakow, Bialystok, Grodno, Brest, or certain parts of Galicia) as part of a compromise?
 
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David bar Elias

BigAbeRangel said:
Thanks. What becomes of Skoropadskyi since he doesn't come to be the ruler? Prime Minister? How were compromises made between different political factions to stabilize (e.g with Symon Petliura and other left wingers)?
Also, how were nationalist tensions quelled and compromised in the Baltic States? On Finland, I'd disagree that they become a monarchy as they were actually offered the post but they respectfully declined it IOTL. Prince Frederick Charles may take the throne after being offered it, but there wasn't a strong monarchist movement in Finland itself and negotiations may still break down in Parliament. I'd personally see it as the same result, but feel free to disagree with me. Also the books make no mention of Finland ever being a monarchy, but as under occupation (albeit inconsistently).
On Poland again, did they get to annex any Polish-inhabited territories from Austria-Hungary (like Krakow, Bialystok, Grodno, Brest, or certain parts of Galicia) as part of a compromise?
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The Kingdom of Poland did not annex any territory from the Austro-Hungarian Empire after the end of the First Great War.

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On the subject of a newly independent Finland becoming a monarchy after the end of the FGW, while what you described may have been the case IOTL, was not the case in TTL. The political outcome of Finland being ruled by a Hohenzollern monarch was a reflection of the hegemony that the Germans and Austro-Hungarians enjoyed throughout Eastern Europe and Scandinavia after the FGW.

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Tensions in the Baltic States, both political and social, were exacerbated during the early 20th Century by three major developments: the opposition by nationalist groups to their nations being ruled by “foreign” leaders, the interwar Business Collapse, and the devastation caused the Second Great War. Following the end of the SGW, political tensions in the Baltic States lessened due to the immediate needs of postwar reconstruction and the emergence of a “consensus” politics rooted in the discrediting of the interwar extremist nationalist movements in all three countries.

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TTL’s analogue to Pavlo Skoropadskyi was killed in 1914 while serving in the Imperial Russian Army during a major Russian offensive into eastern Prussia.
 

BigAbeRangel

David bar Elias said:
The Kingdom of Poland did not annex any territory from the Austro-Hungarian Empire after the end of the First Great War.

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On the subject of a newly independent Finland becoming a monarchy after the end of the FGW, while what you described may have been the case IOTL, was not the case in TTL. The political outcome of Finland being ruled by a Hohenzollern monarch was a reflection of the hegemony that the Germans and Austro-Hungarians enjoyed throughout Eastern Europe and Scandinavia after the FGW.

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Tensions in the Baltic States, both political and social, were exacerbated during the early 20th Century by three major developments: the opposition by nationalist groups to their nations being ruled by “foreign” leaders, the interwar Business Collapse, and the devastation caused the Second Great War. Following the end of the SGW, political tensions in the Baltic States lessened due to the immediate needs of postwar reconstruction and the emergence of a “consensus” politics rooted in the discrediting of the interwar extremist nationalist movements in all three countries.

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TTL’s analogue to Pavlo Skoropadskyi was killed in 1914 while serving in the Imperial Russian Army during a major Russian offensive into eastern Prussia.
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Thanks. On Poland again: in my head-cannon, I believe that in order to avoid the Oath Crisis from spilling further into open rebellion ITTL, the victorious Central Powers would make a compromise with Josef Pilsudski and his Polish Legions by granting citizenship and freedom of travel to ALL Poles regardless weather they live in the new Kingdom or not. It wouldn't fully resolve nationalist tensions, but this is what I think would be a likely solution for TTL. The Baltics are a bit of a different story, and it be speculated that there be some collaborating with the Russians during the SGW in other threads.
 
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David bar Elias

DeltaEnterprise252 said:
So what's life like for people on the settlements in space? Also has the idea of alien invasions or UFO encounters been as widespread as OTL?
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By 2021, there is still a very limited human presence beyond Earth. It is still confined to either rotating crews on orbiting space stations and rotating crews on the Moon. Life for personnel is precarious, given the extreme environments.

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As in our world, there is a UFO subculture in many countries. It makes for a popular topic for mass market science fiction by 2021.
 

Matt Wiser

Or the UFO phenomenon in general... (i.e. sightings and even Close Encounters that the various authorities-USAF, German AF, A-H AF, etc. have been unable to explain)
 

David bar Elias

Matt Wiser said:
Or the UFO phenomenon in general... (i.e. sightings and even Close Encounters that the various authorities-USAF, German AF, A-H AF, etc. have been unable to explain)
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There have been any number of UFO sightings during the course of TTL, including by pilots from various air forces.

UFOs are a common staple of popular science fiction around the world by 2021.
 
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David bar Elias

RanenSiow said:
Does humanity eventually lands on Mars and even Venus in this timeline? If so, When and how?
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There are manned missions to Mars beginning in the late 2010s in TTL.

By 2162, there have been no manned missions to Venus, though there have been numerous robotic probes and satellites deployed to the second planet by the competing allied space exploration blocs.
 
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