• Post made for three hours last night (9pm-12am EST) have been deleted. This was necessary due to some problems with server maintenance. Anyone who had problems logging into their account during this time should be fine now.

TL-191: After the End

Even though rock and roll doesn't exist ITTL, do the genres that make and relate to rock gain some mainstream, or underground, or regional popularity? What is the closest TTL genre to that? Tinpan, which is the Northern variety of jazz, has mainstream popularity while Southern jazz is seen as strange by their Northern counterparts. Does country music have popularity among rural folks both North and South despite its Southern origins? Elsewhere in jazz, does big band and swing music become popular as well? What would Glenn Miller be doing ITTL?

What about blues and R&B? Is there still some underground/regional popularity even after the Destruction? Anything close to soul or something influenced along the lines of gospel music? Does the electric guitar become a mainstream instrument?

Though Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, the Kingston Trio, and Joan Baez won't exist ITTL, is there still an American folk revival? If so, is bent more on German sounding folk songs or is it still rooted in British and Appalachian folk? Also what would Pete Seeger and Burl Ives be doing ITTL?

Do we see anything like reggae, rocksteady, or ska coming out of Jamaica? Mento-punk is mentioned as being more folk oriented and I'm inclined to think the aforementioned genres are more influenced by upbeat folk music.

In TTL, there are no musical forms or genres analogous to Rock. The genres of music that in OTL contributed to the eventual development of rock, and that were popular IOTL in the southern United States, were also negatively affected by the rise of the Freedom Party and the Destruction. The postwar United States was also generally hostile to any music that sounded too “Southern.”

Along with Tinpan, which was somewhat analogous to Big Band music in our world, though also more slow paced, there was also what was later labeled by critics and historians as Westpan, a variant of US Tinpan music popular during the Second Great War and the immediate postwar years. Westpan is somewhat analogous in sound and themes to the OTL genre of Western Swing.

-
Glenn Miller’s analogue in TTL was Alton Miller, born on a slightly different date. Musically talented, Miller eventually moved to New York City, where he found work in the world of the city’s musical theater. He never became a band leader. Miller volunteered for the US military, like a number of musicians from his generation, to provide musical entertainment for frontline personnel. Miller returned to New York City after the end of the SGW, where he would eventually find new work in composing music for television shows. Alton Miller died of old age in 1996.

-
Sadly, the Blues genre doesn’t exist, for the most part, in TTL. In our world, the music that became the Blues developed in the South among African-Americans. In TTL, similar music never found an audience in the CSA, due to official discrimination, and later due to the rise of the Freedom Party. In 2021, Haiti is the only place in the world where anything resembling the Blues survived, brought by survivors who emigrated from the former CSA. It’s a very mournful form of music, and is referred to by some of its musicians in 2021 as “Nameless.”

-
Country music never really developed into a form of national popular music in the USA after the end of the SGW, although some regions, such as the Rocky Mountain West, the Canadian states, and the West Virginia/Ohio/Pennsylvania “Triangle” developed their own unique forms of music, developed from local folk musics and influenced by Tinpan. On a side note, Nashville never became a major musical center, and there never was an analogue to the Grand Ole Opry.

-
The USA did go through a general folk music revival during the first generation after the end of the SGW. The recorded folk music from this period was based around popular local folk songs, as well as music derived from labor and work songs. A more mainstream left-wing political culture in the USA in comparison to our world also meant that music rooted in, for instance, labor organizing had more mainstream appeal compared to OTL.

Pete Seeger and Burl Ives don’t exist in TTL.

-
Mento Punk is the closest analogue in TTL to Reggae. It will not be the only musical genre to emerge from the US state of Jamaica in this world.
 
If you're already at it: Can you even talk about something akin to pop music ITTL that would even be remotely recognizable to OTLers? And vice versa?
 
In TTL, there are no musical forms or genres analogous to Rock. The genres of music that in OTL contributed to the eventual development of rock, and that were popular IOTL in the southern United States, were also negatively affected by the rise of the Freedom Party and the Destruction. The postwar United States was also generally hostile to any music that sounded too “Southern.”

Along with Tinpan, which was somewhat analogous to Big Band music in our world, though also more slow paced, there was also what was later labeled by critics and historians as Westpan, a variant of US Tinpan music popular during the Second Great War and the immediate postwar years. Westpan is somewhat analogous in sound and themes to the OTL genre of Western Swing.

-
Glenn Miller’s analogue in TTL was Alton Miller, born on a slightly different date. Musically talented, Miller eventually moved to New York City, where he found work in the world of the city’s musical theater. He never became a band leader. Miller volunteered for the US military, like a number of musicians from his generation, to provide musical entertainment for frontline personnel. Miller returned to New York City after the end of the SGW, where he would eventually find new work in composing music for television shows. Alton Miller died of old age in 1996.

-
Sadly, the Blues genre doesn’t exist, for the most part, in TTL. In our world, the music that became the Blues developed in the South among African-Americans. In TTL, similar music never found an audience in the CSA, due to official discrimination, and later due to the rise of the Freedom Party. In 2021, Haiti is the only place in the world where anything resembling the Blues survived, brought by survivors who emigrated from the former CSA. It’s a very mournful form of music, and is referred to by some of its musicians in 2021 as “Nameless.”

-
Country music never really developed into a form of national popular music in the USA after the end of the SGW, although some regions, such as the Rocky Mountain West, the Canadian states, and the West Virginia/Ohio/Pennsylvania “Triangle” developed their own unique forms of music, developed from local folk musics and influenced by Tinpan. On a side note, Nashville never became a major musical center, and there never was an analogue to the Grand Ole Opry.

-
The USA did go through a general folk music revival during the first generation after the end of the SGW. The recorded folk music from this period was based around popular local folk songs, as well as music derived from labor and work songs. A more mainstream left-wing political culture in the USA in comparison to our world also meant that music rooted in, for instance, labor organizing had more mainstream appeal compared to OTL.

Pete Seeger and Burl Ives don’t exist in TTL.

-
Mento Punk is the closest analogue in TTL to Reggae. It will not be the only musical genre to emerge from the US state of Jamaica in this world.
Thanks man.
 
Did the US establish a state-owned television broadcaster like the BBC? U.S. Wireless Atlanta was mentioned in In at the death.
 
Did the US establish a state-owned television broadcaster like the BBC? U.S. Wireless Atlanta was mentioned in In at the death.
I might be missing context from the book, but just going off the name there's no reason that couldn't be a private entity (see, for instance, the American Broadcasting Company IOTL).
 
I might be missing context from the book, but just going off the name there's no reason that couldn't be a private entity (see, for instance, the American Broadcasting Company IOTL).

If I had to guess, he's going by TTL's USA being far more centralized or seeing the Socialists more willing to nationalize an ABC analogue.
 
Is there a Super Bowl equivalent ITTL? Also, who are the best US Football teams in 2021?

In 2013, another forum user, Nerdlinger, wrote a history of TTL’s American Football League, and NFL teams. This history ended at 2009, but the information on AFL teams in 2009 is still correct for the AFL in 2021. In 2021, the analogue to our world’s Super Bowl is the World Bowl, hosted by the AFL; by 2021, Game Day for the AFL has been made into an official National US holiday.

The following text on the AFL, describing its history and teams up until 2009, was written by Nerdlinger:

The American Football League began play in 1909 and was the first professional football circuit. Due to travel constraints (railroads were the primary means of transportation), teams were largely restricted to the northeastern and Midwest United States. During the First Great War, the league was forced to suspend operations, as the draft had scooped up the talent. The AFL resumed play in 1918. The first two decades of the league's existence were turbulent, and not just because of the war. While several teams in large cities -- e.g., the New York Gothams, the Chicago Bears and Cardinals, the Philadelphia Athletics (later the Barrels) -- were mainstays throughout this period, many teams from small markets flitted in and out of the league from season to season. It wasn't until the late '20s that membership stabilized. By 1927, the AFL had 18 teams, arranged into three 6-team divisions.

1927 AFL
East Division: Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Boston Yankees, New York Gothams, Philadelphia Barrels, Washington Warriors
Central Division: Buffalo Braves, Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians, Pittsburgh Ironmen
West Division: Chicago Bears, Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, St. Louis Stallions, St. Paul Saints

The first official "World Bowl" was played that year. The three division winners and the best non-division-winner would face off in Semifinal Games, after which the two victors would participate in the World Bowl to determine the league champion. The World Bowl quickly became very popular; today it has become a de facto holiday across North America.

Meanwhile, the CSA had its own football league, played with CS rules (e.g., no forward passing) and with its own postseason championship game, the Confederate Bowl. The Confederate Football League lasted from 1923 to 1942, when the demands and destruction of war shuttered stadiums all over the country.

1941 CFL
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Birmingham Barons, Charleston Patriots, Norfolk Destroyers, Richmond Colts, Savannah Seahawks
West Division: Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, Nashville Volunteers, New Orleans Tigers, San Antonio Alamos

The Depression had hit both leagues hard, forcing several franchises to suspend operations. The Second Great War didn't help either. But, as President Smith ordered, the game went on in the US. The Confederate invasion of Ohio and Pennsylvania overran the homes of three AFL teams and placed other stadiums within enemy crosshairs. Undaunted, these teams merely shifted operations to the north, appropriating minor league fields in upstate New York, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Iowa. For instance, the Phil-Pitt Barrelmen actually played in Syracuse, since Pittsburgh had been occupied and Philadelphia's stadium wrecked by CS bombers.

With their rosters depleted, the remaining AFL clubs temporarily merged with one another in order to stay afloat. Physically handicapped players were a common sight on the field. Teams were so desperate for able bodies that they resorted to raiding the roster of Negro League teams. The first black AFL player, Jim Robinson, took the field for the merged New York/Brooklyn team in 1943, and went on to have a Hall of Fame career as a receiver for the Bulldogs.

1943 AFL
East Division: Baltimore/Washington (Rochester), Boston/Buffalo (Boston), New York/Brooklyn (Albany), Philadelphia/Pittsburgh (Syracuse)
West Division: Chicago/Chicago, Detroit/Cleveland (Green Bay), Indianapolis/Cincinnati (Madison), Kansas City/St. Louis (Des Moines), Milwaukee, St. Paul

By 1946, the 18 pre-Depression teams were back in play, most with brand new stadiums rising from the rubble. The West Coast Football League proved an increasingly tough competitor for talent during the '50s.

1952 WCFL: Hollywood Stars, Los Angeles Dons, Oakland Oaks, Portland Columbias (which had briefly renamed themselves the Wolves during the SGW), Sacramento Senators, San Diego Marines, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks

Ultimately, the WCFL lost out to the established league. The AFL absorbed the WCFL in 1961, folding two of its franchises in the process, and realigned into 3 conferences: the Pacific (comprising the former West Coast teams), the Central, and the Atlantic. The number of teams receiving postseason spots was raised from 4 to 8.

1961 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Buffalo Braves, New York Gothams
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Barrels, Pittsburgh Ironmen, Washington Warriors
Central Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints (moved to Minneapolis from St. Paul in 1957), St. Louis Stallions
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks
South Division: Denver Bears (from Chicago in 1953), Los Angeles Angels (from KC Cowboys in 1961), Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines

Many teams from the old Confederate Football League were reincarnated in the Southern Football League, a minor league which formed in 1954 with clubs in both the US and Texas. Naturally, the league played by US rules, as the old Confederate style had fallen out of favor (and was insufficiently patriotic). The first AFL team from the former CSA, the Habana Hurricanes, had joined in 1969 (along with a new Kansas City Cowboys franchise). The SFL became so popular in the former CSA that the AFL eventually absorbed it in 1984. It became the fourth AFL conference (the Central Conference was renamed the Northern Conference at this time). The number of teams qualifying for the playoffs was upped to 12 that year.

The Canadian Football Association formed in 1958 and consisted of teams in the ex-Canadian provinces and in Quebec. Like the CFL, the CFA also played by American rules. It too was considered a minor league, not on the same level of competition as the AFL. But in 1977, the Toronto Maple Leafs and Vancouver Cougars were deemed worthy and "promoted" to the AFL as expansion teams.

1958-76 CFA
East Division: Montreal Royals, Ottawa Senators, Quebec Capitals, Toronto Maple Leafs
West Division: Calgary Cannons, Edmonton Eskimos, Vancouver Cougars, Winnipeg Wolves

1984 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Brooklyn Bulldogs, Buffalo Braves, New York Gothams, Toronto Maple Leafs
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Barrels, Pittsburgh Ironmen, Washington Warriors
Northern Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints, St. Louis Stallions
Southern Conference
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Birmingham Barons, Habana Hurricanes, Miami Seahawks (from Savannah in 1966), Richmond Colts
West Division: Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, New Orleans Tigers
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks, Vancouver Cougars
South Division: Denver Bears, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines

The most recent round of expansion occurred in 2001, when 4 new teams were added, bringing the total number of teams up to its current 40. The postseason was also expanded that year to 16 teams.

2001 AFL
Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Buffalo Braves, Montreal Royals, Ottawa Ospreys, Toronto Maple Leafs
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Bulldogs, New York Gothams, Philadelphia Barrels, Washington Warriors
Northern Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians, Pittsburgh Ironmen
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints, St. Louis Stallions
Southern Conference
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Charlotte Hornets, Habana Hurricanes, Miami Seahawks, Richmond Colts
West Division: Birmingham Barons, Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, New Orleans Tigers
Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks, Vancouver Cougars
South Division: Denver Bears, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines, Tucson Sidewinders
 
What of TTL version of Sultan Mehmed VI, the Three Pashas (Mehmed Talaat, Ismail Enver, and Ahmed Cemal), and Mustafa Kemal?

Also IOTL Ottoman Empire prior to WWI the Sultan was a figurehead and the political power in the Empire was run by the Young Turks lead by the Three Pashas. I assume it would be the same ITTL prior to the FGW. Yet by 1981 with the coronation of Sultan Abdul Hamid III, the political power of the Sultan within the Ottoman Empire is absolute. Was there a coup or something that ended the political power of the Young Turks?
 
If you're already at it: Can you even talk about something akin to pop music ITTL that would even be remotely recognizable to OTLers? And vice versa?

In TTL, it took longer for a global popular music market to develop in comparison to our world. Later in the Twentieth Century, music such as Stomp, from the United States, Bosa nova (a different genre from OTL) from Brazil and Fabrika-Punk, from Russia, did find imitators in other countries. Overall, however, the music industry by 2021 is more segmented than in our world.

Needless to say, someone from our world in 2021 would not find the popular music from TTL familiar, given the lack of Rock, and the genres and styles that emerged from Rock in OTL.
 
Do The Beano and The Dandy exist ITTL?

Also, what became of
James Callaghan
Captain Tom Moore
James Cunningham
Archibald Sinclair
Ian Fleming
Georges Remi/Herge
Vera Lynn
Enid Blyton
Edward Thompson
 
Shouldn't the Newfouldnland boundary be something along the lines of this or just the coasts of Labrador, since the 1927 boundary dispute ruling never happened due to Canada and Newfoundland's conquest?

1624588103092.png
 
Do The Beano and The Dandy exist ITTL?

Also, what became of
James Callaghan
Captain Tom Moore
James Cunningham
Archibald Sinclair
Ian Fleming
Georges Remi/Herge
Vera Lynn
Enid Blyton
Edward Thompson

I’m including Harold Wilson, because he was listed previously.

-
The analogue to Harold Wilson in TTL was James Wilson, born on a slightly different date than in our world. The family of James Wilson had been politically supportive of the Liberal Party, and were left unmoored politically with the collapse of the Liberals after the end of the First Great War. Wilson’s father, an industrial chemist, became more sympathetic to the Labour Party and the trade union movement. This public support for Labour led to Wilson’s father being subject to an informal blacklist after the General Strike of 1926. Without prospects in the United Kingdom, the Wilson family emigrated to Australia in 1927, settling in Western Australia.

James Wilson was academically gifted in several fields, including chemistry and mathematics. He eventually attended the University of Sydney, where he was studying and working as a researcher in chemistry when the Second Great War broke out in 1941. Wilson attempted to enlist in the Australian military, but was instead directed by the authorities to the euphemistically-named Scientific Reserve, which was intended to mobilize Australian scientists and engineers for the war effort. During the SHW, Wilson found himself working on any number of weapons projects; even during the war, the Australian government had started to make preparations for the creation of a national arms industry, with Britain far away and potential threats from the Empire of Japan, or even, one day, from the United States.

After the end of the SGW, Wilson, who had proven to be skilled at administration, would find work at the new Australia-New Zealand quash-governmental Oceania arms manufacturing company. Wilson gradually rose through the ranks at the company, and eventually found a place on its board of directors, before retiring in 1985. He died of old age in 1999.

-
The analogue to James Callaghan in TTL was Leonard Callaghan, born on a slightly different date to our world. Coming from a working class family, Leonard Callaghan became a supporter of the Labour Party. He had the misfortune to formally register his membership with the party immediately before the 1932 electoral victory of the Conservative-Silver Shirt Coalition. Callaghan was among those arrested during an early national crackdown by the new government on the political left and the trade union movement. Callaghan, not being a high-ranking member of the party, was sentenced to three years of hard labor: one practice borrowed by the Coalition in the 1930s from the Confederate States of America was the chain gang system. Callaghan, upon his release in 1936, was obliged by the authorities, like most other released “politicals” to leave the country. Callaghan left for New Zealand.

Callaghan attempted to enlist in the New Zealand military upon the outbreak of the SGW in 1941, but was rejected for service due his former status as a political prisoner. He spent the war years working as a truck driver. After the end of war, Callaghan found steady employment with a Wellington-based freight company. He never returned to the United Kingdom.

-
Edward Thompson doesn’t exist in TTL. However, in TTL, there was a growth in popularity in the United Kingdom, beginning in the 1960s, for historical works on the British working class. In TTL, these kinds of British “Marxian” social histories were also influenced by similar post-SGW historical works in the United States, as well as by the harsh experiences of the Conservative-Silver Shirt regime.

-
The analogue to. Vera Lynn in TTL was Margaret Welch, born on a slightly different date to our world. Like our world’s Vera Lynn, Margaret Welch was a talented singer, and was able to find steady work with multiple interwar British Tinpan bands, even during the worst years of the Business Collapse. Welch continued sing with Tinpan bands under the Conservative-Silver Shirt Coalition; the Coalition never tried to suppress Tinpan like the Nazis in OTL did with Jazz. Welch, upon the outbreak of SGW in 1941, volunteered to sing for British frontline soldiers, and was genuinely beloved by military personnel and civilians alike (the song “We’ll Meet Again”, however, does not exist in TTL). Welch also sang regularly on the BBC during the SGW, with more frequent appearances as the British war effort suffered greater reverses.

Margaret Welch was among those killed in the German superbomb attack on London in 1944.
 
I’m including Harold Wilson, because he was listed previously.

-
The analogue to Harold Wilson in TTL was James Wilson, born on a slightly different date than in our world. The family of James Wilson had been politically supportive of the Liberal Party, and were left unmoored politically with the collapse of the Liberals after the end of the First Great War. Wilson’s father, an industrial chemist, became more sympathetic to the Labour Party and the trade union movement. This public support for Labour led to Wilson’s father being subject to an informal blacklist after the General Strike of 1926. Without prospects in the United Kingdom, the Wilson family emigrated to Australia in 1927, settling in Western Australia.

James Wilson was academically gifted in several fields, including chemistry and mathematics. He eventually attended the University of Sydney, where he was studying and working as a researcher in chemistry when the Second Great War broke out in 1941. Wilson attempted to enlist in the Australian military, but was instead directed by the authorities to the euphemistically-named Scientific Reserve, which was intended to mobilize Australian scientists and engineers for the war effort. During the SHW, Wilson found himself working on any number of weapons projects; even during the war, the Australian government had started to make preparations for the creation of a national arms industry, with Britain far away and potential threats from the Empire of Japan, or even, one day, from the United States.

After the end of the SGW, Wilson, who had proven to be skilled at administration, would find work at the new Australia-New Zealand quash-governmental Oceania arms manufacturing company. Wilson gradually rose through the ranks at the company, and eventually found a place on its board of directors, before retiring in 1985. He died of old age in 1999.

-
The analogue to James Callaghan in TTL was Leonard Callaghan, born on a slightly different date to our world. Coming from a working class family, Leonard Callaghan became a supporter of the Labour Party. He had the misfortune to formally register his membership with the party immediately before the 1932 electoral victory of the Conservative-Silver Shirt Coalition. Callaghan was among those arrested during an early national crackdown by the new government on the political left and the trade union movement. Callaghan, not being a high-ranking member of the party, was sentenced to three years of hard labor: one practice borrowed by the Coalition in the 1930s from the Confederate States of America was the chain gang system. Callaghan, upon his release in 1936, was obliged by the authorities, like most other released “politicals” to leave the country. Callaghan left for New Zealand.

Callaghan attempted to enlist in the New Zealand military upon the outbreak of the SGW in 1941, but was rejected for service due his former status as a political prisoner. He spent the war years working as a truck driver. After the end of war, Callaghan found steady employment with a Wellington-based freight company. He never returned to the United Kingdom.

-
Edward Thompson doesn’t exist in TTL. However, in TTL, there was a growth in popularity in the United Kingdom, beginning in the 1960s, for historical works on the British working class. In TTL, these kinds of British “Marxian” social histories were also influenced by similar post-SGW historical works in the United States, as well as by the harsh experiences of the Conservative-Silver Shirt regime.

-
The analogue to. Vera Lynn in TTL was Margaret Welch, born on a slightly different date to our world. Like our world’s Vera Lynn, Margaret Welch was a talented singer, and was able to find steady work with multiple interwar British Tinpan bands, even during the worst years of the Business Collapse. Welch continued sing with Tinpan bands under the Conservative-Silver Shirt Coalition; the Coalition never tried to suppress Tinpan like the Nazis in OTL did with Jazz. Welch, upon the outbreak of SGW in 1941, volunteered to sing for British frontline soldiers, and was genuinely beloved by military personnel and civilians alike (the song “We’ll Meet Again”, however, does not exist in TTL). Welch also sang regularly on the BBC during the SGW, with more frequent appearances as the British war effort suffered greater reverses.

Margaret Welch was among those killed in the German superbomb attack on London in 1944.
The Edward Thompson I was referring to was the engineer. Born in 1881 and ultimately succeeding Sir Nigel Gresley as chief mechanical engineer of the LNER.
 
Top