TL-191: After the End

Do you think America and the world overall are better off in this world, David?

Also, do Putin and Xi Jinping exist in this world?

I would not characterize the TTL’s world in 2021 overall as better than our world. But it is certainly different a different world overall compared to our world.

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Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping do not exist in TTL.
 
I remember in IATD, that the lawyer Moss mentioned that some Southerner might write a book on how the Devastation never happened, did that happen by any chance or did occupational censorship prevent such a thing from happening.

During the period of US military occupation of the former CSA, there were unfortunately attempts to write books and pamphlets denying the Destruction. This wasn’t a particularly common phenomenon under US military rule, since writing and distributing such materials was a quick way to be marked as a Freedom Party sympathizer.

Such materials were more common during the first generations after the SGW in the Republic of Texas, whose government made no real efforts to stop the publication of works that denied the Destruction. There was more of a public pushback in Texas against such materials later in the 20th Century, as the public confronted the truth of what had happened in Texas during the Destruction and Freedom Party rule.
 
Barack Obama and Colin Powell do not exist in TTL. In 2021, the analogue to Powell’s family still mostly lives in the US state of Jamaica, while the analogue to Obama’s family still lives in Kenya.

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In TTL, Karen Driver, the granddaughter of Cincinnatus Driver, enjoyed a successful political career. She became the head of the Republican Party while it was still relegated as an insignificant third party, and oversaw its rebirth as a force in US politics. Driver was the advocate of the ultimately successful Northern Strategy by the Republican Party to contest and win the new Canadian states. Driver was also instrumental in convincing Morgan Reynolds to run for president as a Republican.
And in Kansas for his mother ? What about MLK and Malcolm (X) Little ?
 
During the period of US military occupation of the former CSA, there were unfortunately attempts to write books and pamphlets denying the Destruction. This wasn’t a particularly common phenomenon under US military rule, since writing and distributing such materials was a quick way to be marked as a Freedom Party sympathizer.

Such materials were more common during the first generations after the SGW in the Republic of Texas, whose government made no real efforts to stop the publication of works that denied the Destruction. There was more of a public pushback in Texas against such materials later in the 20th Century, as the public confronted the truth of what had happened in Texas during the Destruction and Freedom Party rule.
So does this mean that the annexed CSA states went through more of a DeFreedomization process that made such behavior be seen as unacceptable where it was acceptable for a long time in Texas who as an independant state from 1944 presmuably had no DeFreedomization program other than whatever they did on their own ? Since two of the largest murder factories were in Texas it just seems they got off very lightly when it comes to such things compared to the rest of the CSA.
Also without serious DeFreedomization its hard not to picture what Herman Goering predicted about Germans having little statues of him in their homes in 50 years wouldnt have happened in the homes of former Confederates with little statues of Featherston and Pinkard. Just knowing the OTL history its very hard to imagine such people changing out of the goodness of their heart. Real and lasting change there has always had to come at the tip of a bayonet one way or another....
 
So does this mean that the annexed CSA states went through more of a DeFreedomization process that made such behavior be seen as unacceptable where it was acceptable for a long time in Texas who as an independant state from 1944 presmuably had no DeFreedomization program other than whatever they did on their own ? Since two of the largest murder factories were in Texas it just seems they got off very lightly when it comes to such things compared to the rest of the CSA.
Also without serious DeFreedomization its hard not to picture what Herman Goering predicted about Germans having little statues of him in their homes in 50 years wouldnt have happened in the homes of former Confederates with little statues of Featherston and Pinkard. Just knowing the OTL history its very hard to imagine such people changing out of the goodness of their heart. Real and lasting change there has always had to come at the tip of a bayonet one way or another....
Yeah, Texas got off like Austria IOTL as being depicted as a victim of Freedomite aggression than as a willful and wholehearted ally. As David explained, later generations of people in Texas born after the war would not think highly of what their nation had done under Featherston.
 
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Other than Cuba, it seems that Louisiana had the highest share of non-black victims murdered by Featherston. What are other states in throughout the CSA which a share of their non-black population suffered at the hands of the Freedomites? I'll definitely see the former Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora be targeted due them being RadLib strongholds.

Freedom Party rule throughout the CSA directly targeted the pre-Featherston political and social structure of the Confederacy. This was in part a reflection of Featherston’s own personal hatreds; under the Freedom Party, the traditional power brokers in different Confederate states, such as the landed aristocracy (one of the pillars in most states of the Whig Party) were systematically removed from local governance. One result of this was the disruption, if not outright ending, of various local forms of political patronage in favor of the Freedom Party’s totalitarian political machine.

The end result of this process of political consolidation was the establishment of a general system of social conformity throughout most of the CSA, backed up by a system of terror directed against any real or imagined enemies of Featherston and the Freedom Party.

From what I recall from the series, while the Freedom Party went after the older Radical Liberal landowners and local power brokers in Chihuahua and Sonora, the party also sent activists to organize support from the general public for Featherston.

Ultimately, the US occupation authorities in the former CSA would find that the former pre-Featherston political system had been destroyed by the Freedom Party.
 
Freedom Party rule throughout the CSA directly targeted the pre-Featherston political and social structure of the Confederacy. This was in part a reflection of Featherston’s own personal hatreds; under the Freedom Party, the traditional power brokers in different Confederate states, such as the landed aristocracy (one of the pillars in most states of the Whig Party) were systematically removed from local governance. One result of this was the disruption, if not outright ending, of various local forms of political patronage in favor of the Freedom Party’s totalitarian political machine.

The end result of this process of political consolidation was the establishment of a general system of social conformity throughout most of the CSA, backed up by a system of terror directed against any real or imagined enemies of Featherston and the Freedom Party.

From what I recall from the series, while the Freedom Party went after the older Radical Liberal landowners and local power brokers in Chihuahua and Sonora, the party also sent activists to organize support from the general public for Featherston.

Ultimately, the US occupation authorities in the former CSA would find that the former pre-Featherston political system had been destroyed by the Freedom Party.
Which sounds like an even more radical change compared to OTL Germany. When the Allies and Soviets occupied Germany in 1945 despite the Nazi rule and elimination of its enemies from 1933-1945 they were still able to find at least the basic infrastructure of the former pre-Hitler political system .So just to be clear this means that most if not all Whig,Radical Liberal and disoyal Freedomite office holders and politicans had been eliminated in the Freedomite camps thus effectively destroying the former pre-Featherston political system -and not to mention Whig,Radical Liberal and other disloyal landowners and power brokers in the CSA ?
 
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Unless there was massive and prolonged Reconstruction why should we think this would not happen ittl ?
If there were Southern congresspeople and people on the street in the 1980s and 1990s who doubt if the Destruction happened or dont think its a big deal that it did or worst of all that it was a good thing it happened with a certain amount elsewhere in the USA who agree ? Then the USA has lost the battle despite winning the SGW....
Between the last part of In At The Death and this thread of David's, I think this occupation qualifies as a "massive and prolonged reconstruction". Even the peripheral "outr rim" of the CSA didn't get readmitted until the late 1950s. The first Deep South (OTL Description) states Arkansas, Louisiana, and Georgia not until 1965. That's 21 years of occupation. South Carolina (last readmitted) not until 1976 - 32 years of occupation. We all know how Germany turned out after four years of occupation (especially western Germany). Imagine a full generation of it, and half a generation on top of that for some areas.

As for the second question, I expect something analogous to post 1949 Germany OTL. The Freedom Party itself is illegal, and so is speaking out in favor of it or its policies -- just like post 1949 Germany and ever since then. In fact, you can easily do worse than to simply present OTL Germany's anti-Nazi legislation and paste it onto the former CSA, and by extension the USA in general.
 
Why not make Louisiana a black client state? It would also make the shape of the USA less awkward too. And I put in Houston and Kentucky as swing states because they frequently swung between the Republicans and Solid South Democrats OTL, due to being a bit more progressive in terms African-American and women's rights. Despite voting to rejoin the CSA I'm sure more than a few people in those states were less than thrilled with Featherston. Similar deal with Arkansas and Tennessee except they weren't ceded to the USA after the First Great War. In the case of Arkansas, they were one of two states not to vote for Featherston in 1933.
If there's to be black client states, I'd say it'd be the "Black Belt" from SE NC to the Florida Border, then straight west to the Mississippi River. to include the southern halfs of Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi - plus the entire western 1/3 of MS all the way up to the Tennessee border.
Even though Louisiana, especially the northern part and SE parts of the state, plus Arkansas' river counties have just as high a percentage of blacks as the areas to the east, remember that these two states voted against Featherston in 1933. Why penalize the most anti-Freedom parts of the former CSA by ripping those state up? The awkward shape really doesn't matter if you have the military strength to hold the area - which the USA does.
 
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If there's to be black client states, I'd say it'd be the "Black Belt" from SE NC to the Florida Border, then straight west to the Mississippi River. to include the southern halfs of Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi - plus the entire western 1/3 of MS all the way up to the Tennessee border.
Even though Louisiana, especially the northern part and SE parts of the state, plus Arkansas' river counties have just as high a percentage of blacks as the areas to the east, remember that these two states voted against Featherston in 1933. Why penalize the most anti-Freedom parts of the former CSA by ripping those state up? The awkward shape really doesn't matter if you have the military strength to hold the area - which the USA does.
I didn’t think of it as penalizing those states but rather rewarding them for likely being the most cooperative states with the Union, along with Houston, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Aside from it making the shape of the Union less awkward, I also picked Louisiana since New Orleans probably is the hotbed of black culture ITTL. The only state I had with punishment specifically in mind was Virginia by forcing it to reunite with West Virginia. And does the US really have the military strength to hold the rest of the former CSA, newly acquired Caribbean territories, Canada, and Utah all at once after millions of its own troops died in the Second Great War and with all the resistance those territories possess? And would the Caribbean even want to be part of the same country as the old CSA?
 
I didn’t think of it as penalizing those states but rather rewarding them for likely being the most cooperative states with the Union, along with Houston, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Aside from it making the shape of the Union less awkward, I also picked Louisiana since New Orleans probably is the hotbed of black culture ITTL. The only state I had with punishment specifically in mind was Virginia by forcing it to reunite with West Virginia. And does the US really have the military strength to hold the rest of the former CSA, newly acquired Caribbean territories, Canada, and Utah all at once after millions of its own troops died in the Second Great War and with all the resistance those territories possess? And would the Caribbean even want to be part of the same country as the old CSA?
Except that there is value in keeping New Orleans and the Mississippi Delta... if the US were willing to set up a black client state, Mississippi + Alabama would be the best option.
Virginia is punished by loosing a big chunk of its north to Maryland (though I'd agree that it should basically be divided up between West Virginia and Maryland).
The US probably wouldn't have that stregth but that is the suspension of disbelief we have to take.
 
I didn’t think of it as penalizing those states but rather rewarding them for likely being the most cooperative states with the Union, along with Houston, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Aside from it making the shape of the Union less awkward, I also picked Louisiana since New Orleans probably is the hotbed of black culture ITTL. The only state I had with punishment specifically in mind was Virginia by forcing it to reunite with West Virginia. And does the US really have the military strength to hold the rest of the former CSA, newly acquired Caribbean territories, Canada, and Utah all at once after millions of its own troops died in the Second Great War and with all the resistance those territories possess? And would the Caribbean even want to be part of the same country as the old CSA?
The CSA's most industrialized area - destroyed. That includes their civilian automotive industry. Same thing for their aircraft industry (even civilian). And don't even ask about their "barrel" (TTL term for OTL "tank") manufacturing capacity. That also includes their steel mills, too. Basically the former CSA's reduced to mid-19th century standards of living. Any 20th century technology will be in the hands of the US military or very closely watched by them. NOLA's being a hotbed of black culture and its large black population might actually make it a special target of the Freedom Party, especially given the low esteem Louisiana was held in even aside from the state's large black population. How that city would fare at war's end is anybody's guess - barring David's word about the matter.
 
In light of recent events, I'm curious to know what's the life of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (RIP) like ITTL? Since Greece never joins the FGW, there's no subsequent Greco-Turkish war and 1922 coup, and thus him and his family never go into exile. Also, he remains as Prince of Greece of Denmark. What's his role ITTL as well as relations with royal family members on both alliances.
 
Which sounds like an even more radical change compared to OTL Germany. When the Allies and Soviets occupied Germany in 1945 despite the Nazi rule and elimination of its enemies from 1933-1945 they were still able to find at least the basic infrastructure of the former pre-Hitler political system .So just to be clear this means that most if not all Whig,Radical Liberal and disoyal Freedomite office holders and politicans had been eliminated in the Freedomite camps thus effectively destroying the former pre-Featherston political system -and not to mention Whig,Radical Liberal and other disloyal landowners and power brokers in the CSA ?

I imagined that in TTL, most of the prewar Whig or Radical Liberal political figures, power brokers and landowners were not necessarily subject to arrest or killed by the Freedom Party, especially early in Featherston’s regime. It’s likely that most non-Freedom Party politicians or landowners forced out of positions of authority were more or less told to stay out of politics, and for the most part left alone if they complied (although the safety of those forced from power also likely depended on the focus of the local Freedom Party leader in question). One reason for the Freedom Party forcing out pre-Featherston political figures and office holders was also probably to guarantee employment for loyal members of the Freedom Party.

Levels of violent persecution of political opponents of the Freedom Party likely varied depending on the state, and likely differed within individual states.

So while the Freedom Party did not imprison and murder nearly all of its Whig and Radical Liberal political opponents during Featherston’s regime, the Freedom Party did destroy the Confederacy’s pre-Featherston political structures across the former CSA.
 
I agree here but I do think there is a threat to the USA and its more like what happened to the USA OTL after reunion with the South or what happened to the UK in Worldwar,Colonization and other AH works by being in close proximity to a victorious Nazi Germany. Both had their national characters changed to a certain extent and not for the better. Unless there was massive and prolonged Reconstruction why should we think this would not happen ittl ?
If there were Southern congresspeople and people on the street in the 1980s and 1990s who doubt if the Destruction happened or dont think its a big deal that it did or worst of all that it was a good thing it happened with a certain amount elsewhere in the USA who agree ? Then the USA has lost the battle despite winning the SGW....

I do not think that would be the trajectory of the former CSA after the end of the SGW. For one, the US authorities will ensure that a distorted or pro-Featherston political agenda is not taught in the public education system. The US authorities will also convey pro-reunion and anti-racism messages for the public in the former CSA through other means as well, as was seen at the end of the series with the Equality pamphlet.

The public of the former CSA in TTL during the postwar era will ultimately not embrace a worldview that is either nostalgic for the former Confederacy or apologetic for the crimes of the Freedom Party.
 
In light of recent events, I'm curious to know what's the life of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (RIP) like ITTL? Since Greece never joins the FGW, there's no subsequent Greco-Turkish war and 1922 coup, and thus him and his family never go into exile. Also, he remains as Prince of Greece of Denmark. What's his role ITTL as well as relations with royal family members on both alliances.

Prince Philip does not exist in TTL. In 2021, however, the members of the House of Glücksburg are well known throughout the noble/royal circuit in the European Community.
 
Prince Philip does not exist in TTL. In 2021, however, the members of the House of Glücksburg are well known throughout the noble/royal circuit in the European Community.
How can that be? His older siblings will still exist for sure. Is there an analogue in his place, at least? Oh well, Greece not entering the war would have an effect on his existence.
 
How can that be? His older siblings will still exist for sure. Is there an analogue in his place, at least? Oh well, Greece not entering the war would have an effect on his existence.

A world with a different version of our world’s World War I and immediate postwar period, as well as a different political environment in Greece, means that it is highly unlikely, even in TL-191, with its very conservative version of the butterfly effect, that Prince Philip exists. My general rule for this ATL is that unless someone from OTL is specifically mentioned as existing in the series, they will not exist, at least in the same manner as their OTL counterpart.
 
A world with a different version of our world’s World War I and immediate postwar period, as well as a different political environment in Greece, means that it is highly unlikely, even in TL-191, with its very conservative version of the butterfly effect, that Prince Philip exists. My general rule for this ATL is that unless someone from OTL is specifically mentioned as existing in the series, they will not exist, at least in the same manner as their OTL counterpart.
My parents immigrated to the USA from Zambia before I was born. Would I exist?
 
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