TL-191: After the End

On the topic of the Ottoman Dissolution, what are relations between the Arabs of various religious backgrounds as well as with the Kurds and other minorities? Were there any ideas of reviving a unified Arab state or is it mainly idealized along sectarian and tribal/noble lines form the beginning? What new nations emerged? Also, how have the Armenians been doing within the Ottoman Empire even after the Genocide and decades more of continued oppression? Are there any Greeks and Assyrians left aswell? What's their population and how did they survive? When did Jews start facing persecution to that of other minorities? During the Dissolution itself, which international sides support whom?

The Ottoman Dissolution began in 2010-2011, with the overthrow of the regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid III by the far-right Golden Wolves militia, led by Rifat Macar, who established a “regency” in Constantinople, with the ultimate goal of making himself Sultan. Macar’s overthrowing of the Ottoman government, as well as his stated goal of destroying or driving out all non-Sunnis from the empire, was the catalyst for what became the First Coalition War: the armed intervention, under the auspices of the International Security Council, by the forces of Austria-Hungary, Brazil, Germany, and the United States, along with continents from the respective member states of the CDS, EC, and the (US/Brazil-led) Council of the Western Hemisphere. The stated goal of this intervention was to defeat the Golden Wolves and to bring an end to the multi-sided civil war in the collapsing Ottoman Empire. However, the participants in this intervention would come to learn that while defeating the Golden Wolves was one thing, winning the peace was another matter entirely. Especially as other major powers, including Bharat, Egypt, Persia, and Russia, intervened in the Middle East in their own campaigns over the next two decades.

The Ottoman Dissolution in the 2010s also coincided with the Pakistani Dissolution which began in 2014, with the collapse of the Galal Khan militarist dictatorship, and which triggered both a major Bharati intervention and wars of independence by separatist movements in Baluchistan and Sindh, both of which were supported by the Bharatis. However, the Bharati support for Baloch independence, coupled with Bharati support for Kurdish independence, led to the rapid deterioration of diplomatic relations with Persia, which opposed both Baloch and Kurdish independence.

The Ottoman Dissolution and the Pakistani Dissolution, and the resulting interventions by outside powers and subsequent regional conflicts, were the key events of what would later be referred to by historians as the Long Crisis, which began with the Ottoman Dissolution in the early 2010s but would not end until the early 2030s. Armed conflicts that occurred during this time period as far apart as the Sahel and Central Asia, related, in various degrees, to the collapse of the Ottoman caliphate and the emergence of local extremist groups, would also be considered by historians to be part of the Long Crisis.

A major regional war that occurred during the Long Crisis was the 2012-2013 intervention by the US and CDS in Sudan, in response to reports of genocidal violence being perpetrated by the Sudanese government both in the southern regions of the country and in Darfur.

-
By the early 2030s, with the final end of the fighting in the Middle East, there were numerous successor states in what had once been the Ottoman Empire, almost all of which were part of the respective spheres of influence of several major powers or regional blocs.

Regional successor states by the early 2030s included the Republic of Kurdistan, centered in Kirkuk and allied with both Bharat and Russia, the Kingdom of Turkey, ruled by an EC-backed dynasty unrelated to the former Ottoman ruling family, and with Constantinople still under an Austro-Hungarian/German military occupation, the Commonwealth of Zion, a Jewish state centered in Jerusalem and controlling, more or less, the territory of OTL Israel and allied with the EC, Armenia, which was reestablished with Russian and Persian support in the late 2010s, as well as the large international Armenian diaspora.

There are also numerous small states in the Middle East whose borders reflect where the fighting stopped at different points during the Ottoman Dissolution. In the western reaches of the former Ottoman Empire, there are multiple independent entities centered around major cities and towns in the territories of OTL Jordan, Syria, and southwestern Turkey, supported by the EC. There are also independent Christian, Sunni, and Shiite states on the territory of OTL Lebanon (allied with the EC). There is an Alawite state centered in Latakia and Tartus allied with the EC, and a Druze state centered in an area roughly analogous to OTL As-Suwayda Governorate in Syria.

Further to the east, there is the Emirate of Zor, an independent Sunni state centered around the city of Deir ez-Zor and including areas of OTL eastern Syria and western Iraq. It is unaligned with any major powers, and is focused on preserving its independence above all else.

There is a small independent state in the Nineveh Plains, centered around the city of Bakhdida, with large numbers of Christians, Yazidis, and Shabaks. It is a Kurdish protectorate.

In Mesopotamia, the Persians have a substantial sphere of influence that includes the Republic of Basra and city states centered on the cities of Baghdad and Samarra.

The Arabian Peninsula, by the end of the Ottoman Dissolution, is broadly divided into Egyptian, Bharati, and Persian spheres of influence, with Egypt dominating the west, especially the Hijaz, the Persians dominating the west, and allied with an independent Kingdom of Oman, and the Bharatis dominating a smaller area in the south. However, the Bharatis directly control the city of Aden, as well as the former site of the Ottoman space program in Al Mukalla, both in OTL Yemen.

Mecca and Medina are both protected by an international peacekeeping force drawn from various Muslim nations.
 
Last edited:
The Ottoman Dissolution began in 2010-2011, with the overthrow of the regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid III by the far-right Golden Wolves militia, led by Rifat Macar, who established a “regency” in Constantinople, with the ultimate goal of making himself Sultan. Macar’s overthrowing of the Ottoman government, as well as his stated goal of destroying or driving out all non-Sunnis from the empire, was the catalyst for what became the First Coalition War: the armed intervention, under the auspices of the International Security Council, by the forces of Austria-Hungary, Brazil, Germany, and the United States, along with continents from the respective member states of the CDS, EC, and the (US/Brazil-led) Council of the Western Hemisphere. The stated goal of this intervention was to defeat the Golden Wolves and to bring an end to the multi-sided civil war in the collapsing Ottoman Empire. However, the participants in this intervention would come to learn that while defeating the Golden Wolves was one thing, winning the peace was another matter entirely. Especially as other major powers, including Bharat, Egypt, Persia, and Russia, intervened in the Middle East in their own campaigns over the next two decades.

The Ottoman Dissolution in the 2010s also coincided with the Pakistani Dissolution which began in 2014, with the collapse of the Galal Khan militarist dictatorship, and which triggered both a major Bharati intervention and wars of independence by separatist movements in Baluchistan and Sindh, both of which were supported by the Bharatis. However, the Bharati support for Baloch independence, coupled with Bharati support for Kurdish independence, led to the rapid deterioration of diplomatic relations with Persia, which opposed both Baloch and Kurdish independence.

The Ottoman Dissolution and the Pakistani Dissolution, and the resulting interventions by outside powers and subsequent regional conflicts, were the key events of what would later be referred to by historians as the Long Crisis, which began with the Ottoman Dissolution in the early 2010s but would not end until the early 2030s. Armed conflicts that occurred during this time period as far apart as the Sahel and Central Asia, related, in various degrees, to the collapse of the Ottoman caliphate and the emergence of local extremist groups, would also be considered by historians to be part of the Long Crisis.

A major regional war that occurred during the Long Crisis was the 2012-2013 intervention by the US and CDS in Sudan, in response to reports of genocidal violence being perpetrated by the Sudanese government both in the southern regions of the country and in Darfur.

-
By the early 2030s, with the final end of the fighting in the Middle East, there were numerous successor states in what had once been the Ottoman Empire, almost all of which were part of the respective spheres of influence of several major powers or regional blocs.

Regional successor states by the early 2030s included the Republic of Kurdistan, centered in Kirkuk and allied with both Bharat and Russia; the Kingdom of Turkey, ruled by an EC-backed dynasty unrelated to the former Ottoman ruling family, and with Constantinople still under an Austro-Hungarian/German military occupation; the Commonwealth of Zion, a Jewish state centered in Jerusalem and controlling, more or less, the territory of OTL Israel and allied with the EC; Armenia, which was reestablished with Russian and Persian support in the late 2010s, as well as the large international Armenian diaspora.

There are also numerous small states in the Middle East whose borders reflect where the fighting stopped at different points during the Ottoman Dissolution. In the western reaches of the former Ottoman Empire, there are multiple independent entities centered around major cities and towns in the territories of OTL Jordan, Syria, and southwestern Turkey, supported by the EC. There are also independent Christian, Sunni, and Shiite states on the territory of OTL Lebanon (allied with the EC); there is an Alawite state centered in Latakia and Tartus allied with the EC, and a Druze state centered in an area roughly analogous to OTL As-Suwayda Governorate in Syria.

Further to the east, there is the Emirate of Zor, an independent Sunni state centered around the city of Deir ez-Zor and including areas of OTL eastern Syria and western Iraq. It is unaligned with any major powers, and is focused on preserving its independence above all else.

There is a small independent state in the Nineveh Plains, centered around the city of Bakhdida, with large numbers of Christians, Yazidis, and Shabaks. It is a Kurdish protectorate.

In Mesopotamia, the Persians have a substantial sphere of influence that includes the Republic of Basra and city states centered on the cities of Baghdad and Samarra.

The Arabian Peninsula, by the end of the Ottoman Dissolution, is broadly divided into Egyptian, Bharati, and Persian spheres of influence, with Egypt dominating the west, especially the Hijaz, the Persians dominating the west, and allied with an independent Kingdom of Oman, and the Bharatis dominating a smaller area in the south. However, the Bharatis directly control the city of Aden, as well as the former site of the Ottoman space program in Al Mukalla, both in OTL Yemen.

Mecca and Medina are both protected by an international peacekeeping force drawn from various Muslim nations.
Pecan you make a threadsmarks so it can easier to the threads that is canon please?
 
The Ottoman Dissolution began in 2010-2011, with the overthrow of the regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid III by the far-right Golden Wolves militia, led by Rifat Macar, who established a “regency” in Constantinople, with the ultimate goal of making himself Sultan. Macar’s overthrowing of the Ottoman government, as well as his stated goal of destroying or driving out all non-Sunnis from the empire, was the catalyst for what became the First Coalition War: the armed intervention, under the auspices of the International Security Council, by the forces of Austria-Hungary, Brazil, Germany, and the United States, along with continents from the respective member states of the CDS, EC, and the (US/Brazil-led) Council of the Western Hemisphere. The stated goal of this intervention was to defeat the Golden Wolves and to bring an end to the multi-sided civil war in the collapsing Ottoman Empire. However, the participants in this intervention would come to learn that while defeating the Golden Wolves was one thing, winning the peace was another matter entirely. Especially as other major powers, including Bharat, Egypt, Persia, and Russia, intervened in the Middle East in their own campaigns over the next two decades.

The Ottoman Dissolution in the 2010s also coincided with the Pakistani Dissolution which began in 2014, with the collapse of the Galal Khan militarist dictatorship, and which triggered both a major Bharati intervention and wars of independence by separatist movements in Baluchistan and Sindh, both of which were supported by the Bharatis. However, the Bharati support for Baloch independence, coupled with Bharati support for Kurdish independence, led to the rapid deterioration of diplomatic relations with Persia, which opposed both Baloch and Kurdish independence.

The Ottoman Dissolution and the Pakistani Dissolution, and the resulting interventions by outside powers and subsequent regional conflicts, were the key events of what would later be referred to by historians as the Long Crisis, which began with the Ottoman Dissolution in the early 2010s but would not end until the early 2030s. Armed conflicts that occurred during this time period as far apart as the Sahel and Central Asia, related, in various degrees, to the collapse of the Ottoman caliphate and the emergence of local extremist groups, would also be considered by historians to be part of the Long Crisis.

A major regional war that occurred during the Long Crisis was the 2012-2013 intervention by the US and CDS in Sudan, in response to reports of genocidal violence being perpetrated by the Sudanese government both in the southern regions of the country and in Darfur.

-
By the early 2030s, with the final end of the fighting in the Middle East, there were numerous successor states in what had once been the Ottoman Empire, almost all of which were part of the respective spheres of influence of several major powers or regional blocs.

Regional successor states by the early 2030s included the Republic of Kurdistan, centered in Kirkuk and allied with both Bharat and Russia; the Kingdom of Turkey, ruled by an EC-backed dynasty unrelated to the former Ottoman ruling family, and with Constantinople still under an Austro-Hungarian/German military occupation; the Commonwealth of Zion, a Jewish state centered in Jerusalem and controlling, more or less, the territory of OTL Israel and allied with the EC; Armenia, which was reestablished with Russian and Persian support in the late 2010s, as well as the large international Armenian diaspora.

There are also numerous small states in the Middle East whose borders reflect where the fighting stopped at different points during the Ottoman Dissolution. In the western reaches of the former Ottoman Empire, there are multiple independent entities centered around major cities and towns in the territories of OTL Jordan, Syria, and southwestern Turkey, supported by the EC. There are also independent Christian, Sunni, and Shiite states on the territory of OTL Lebanon (allied with the EC); there is an Alawite state centered in Latakia and Tartus allied with the EC, and a Druze state centered in an area roughly analogous to OTL As-Suwayda Governorate in Syria.

Further to the east, there is the Emirate of Zor, an independent Sunni state centered around the city of Deir ez-Zor and including areas of OTL eastern Syria and western Iraq. It is unaligned with any major powers, and is focused on preserving its independence above all else.

There is a small independent state in the Nineveh Plains, centered around the city of Bakhdida, with large numbers of Christians, Yazidis, and Shabaks. It is a Kurdish protectorate.

In Mesopotamia, the Persians have a substantial sphere of influence that includes the Republic of Basra and city states centered on the cities of Baghdad and Samarra.

The Arabian Peninsula, by the end of the Ottoman Dissolution, is broadly divided into Egyptian, Bharati, and Persian spheres of influence, with Egypt dominating the west, especially the Hijaz, the Persians dominating the west, and allied with an independent Kingdom of Oman, and the Bharatis dominating a smaller area in the south. However, the Bharatis directly control the city of Aden, as well as the former site of the Ottoman space program in Al Mukalla, both in OTL Yemen.

Mecca and Medina are both protected by an international peacekeeping force drawn from various Muslim nations.

really cool summary. Would love to try n make a map for it if your ok with that.
 
What is the legacy of Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck as well as his life after the FGW?

I can easily see him as being a well respected FGW hero in Germany and the other FGW Central Powers countries. However in Tanganyika (OTL Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi, and a small part of Mozambique) as well as other former German African colonies I can see Vorbeck as being a more controversial figure mainly for his role in the Herero & Namaqua Genocide (assuming it still occurs in TTL).

Speaking of Tanganyika, what is the living condition there for the average citizen, the most spoken language there, the main religion there, and the main source of revenue of their economy by 2021?

In 2021, Lettow-Vorbeck is still a respected historical figure in both the German Empire and in Tanganyika for his military successes during the First Great War. In Tanganyika he is generally viewed favorably for ensuring that the veterans who served under him in German East Africa during the FGW received their full pensions. His role in German Southwest Africa during the early Twentieth Century later received more critical scrutiny from historians and activists, however.

-
In 2021, the Republic of Tanganyika is an independent member-state of the German Economic Association (DWV), and is governed by an elected Chancellor. The German Kaiser remains the nominal head of state. The German Empire still directly rules the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba, and still controls a major rocketry base in Tanganyika itself.

The two largest political parties in Tanganyika are the Tanganyikan People’s Union, rooted in the old anticolonial and labor movements, and the Tanganykan People’s Party, which split from the TPU prior to independence.

The key economic sectors of Tanganyika in 2021 include agricultural, tourism, mining, and manufacturing. Tanganyika has also benefited as the primary overland route for exports for the neighboring Congolese Federation. The HDI for Tanganyika in 2021 is roughly analogous to OTL 2019 Thailand.

The capital of Tanganyika is Dar es Salaam.

As in our world’s Tanzania, Tanganyika is a very linguistically diverse country, although Swahili and German tend to be the most common languages used in commerce and governance. English is also taught in public schools.

Christianity and Islam are the most practiced religions in Tanganyika in 2021, with the Catholic Church and major Protestant churches, especially the Lutherans, both prominent among active Christian denominations.
 
Last edited:
What is Bharat like now? Is it like OTL India but more developed?

Bharat in 2021 is one of the world’s great powers and is one of the world’s largest economies. The country is relatively more developed economically in comparison to OTL India. For example, Bharat never experienced anything like our world’s “License Raj.”
 
In 2021, Lettow-Vorbeck is still a respected historical figure in both the German Empire and in Tanganyika for his military successes during the First Great War. In Tanganyika he is generally viewed favorably for ensuring that the veterans who served under him in German East Africa during the FGW received their full pensions. His role in German Southwest Africa during the early Twentieth Century later received more critical scrutiny from historians and activists, however.

-
In 2021, the Republic of Tanganyika is an independent member-state of the German Economic Association (DWV), and is governed by an elected Chancellor. The German Kaiser remains the nominal head of state. The German Empire still directly rules the islands of Zanzibar and Pemba, and still controls a major rocketry base in Tanganyika itself.

The two largest political parties in Tanganyika are the Tanganyikan People’s Union, rooted in the old anticolonial and labor movements, and the Tanganykan People’s Party, which split from the TPU prior to independence.

The key economic sectors of Tanganyika in 2021 include agricultural, tourism, mining, and manufacturing. Tanganyika has also benefited as the primary overland route for exports for the neighboring Congolese Federation. The HDI for Tanganyika in 2021 is roughly analogous to OTL 2019 Thailand.

The capital of Tanganyika is Dar es Salaam.

As in our world’s Tanzania, Tanganyika is a very linguistically diverse country, although Swahili and German tend to be the most common languages used in commerce and governance. English is also taught in public schools.

Christianity and Islam are the most practiced religions in Tanganyika in 2021, with the Catholic Church and major Protestant churches, especially the Lutherans, both prominent among active Christian denominations.
So it's like the British Dominion/Commonwealth system, correct? There any other former German colonies that fall into this?
 
the rough analogue to a certain Stanley Lieber (Martin Lieber) becomes a somewhat successful novelist.
Excelsior ! :cool:

As fate would have it, the circumstances behind the creation of a character and superhero called Superman were very different in TTL, since the analogues to Shuster and Siegel did not initially meet in Cleveland. They would meet in very different circumstances, towards the end of the 1920s, in New York City, the center of the US artistic world. Happily, they did not lose out on any credit or royalties from the character in TTL.
Nice. :)
 
How is the first Russian Revolution viewed in the Russian Republic? Part of me wonders if Lenin and the Bolsheviks have been whitewashed as heroes by the Republican government for trying to topple the Tsar, or at least tragic heroes for not succeeding.

Or would the Left SRs and the Mensheviks be viewed in a positive light instead? If not simply forgotten by anyone who's not a historian.
 
How is the first Russian Revolution viewed in the Russian Republic? Part of me wonders if Lenin and the Bolsheviks have been whitewashed as heroes by the Republican government for trying to topple the Tsar, or at least tragic heroes for not succeeding.

Or would the Left SRs and the Mensheviks be viewed in a positive light instead? If not simply forgotten by anyone who's not a historian.
That's a good question there for the first. The Socialist Party under Turov is more democratic socialist/center-left leaning, so they probably won't view the Bolsheviks as well as their Red Terror lightly for that. Based on that, they'll view the Mensheviks more positively since they closely resemble them more. The Republicans will probably have a favorable view of the First Revolution on overthrowing the Tsar at first for trying to break the chains of oppression, but criticizing how it was executed to where the Central Powers intervened and restored Nicholas II back to the throne, and for the Bolsheviks' part in enabling famine through war communism.
 
That's a good question there for the first. The Socialist Party under Turov is more democratic socialist/center-left leaning, so they probably won't view the Bolsheviks as well as their Red Terror lightly for that. Based on that, they'll view the Mensheviks more positively since they closely resemble them more. The Republicans will probably have a favorable view of the First Revolution on overthrowing the Tsar at first for trying to break the chains of oppression, but criticizing how it was executed to where the Central Powers intervened and restored Nicholas II back to the throne, and for the Bolsheviks' part in enabling famine through war communism.

Did the Bolsheviks even get as far as the Red Terror and harassing the peasantry ITTL? From my understanding, the Reds didn't have the success of OTL although the RCW went on longer since there was no Central Powers intervention IIRC.
 
On that topic, who is the Tsar by the time of the Second Russian Civil War? Tsar Michael II (OTL's Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich), the younger brother of Nicholas II, succeeded him after his death ITTL. That would mean that Nicholas' son Tsarevich Alexei died young unfortunately as a result of his hemophilia and the line of succession when to Michael instead of his eldest sister Olga due to male primogeniture. Michael did have a son by the name of George but he could not be entitled to succession rights due to his parents' marriage being morganatic. So that leads to my biggest speculation: is the Tsar who succeeds Michael his nephew Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich? Who was the pretender for much of the 20th century. This has also been speculated in the Photos thread as well.
 
Last edited:
Did the Bolsheviks even get as far as the Red Terror and harassing the peasantry ITTL? From my understanding, the Reds didn't have the success of OTL although the RCW went on longer since there was no Central Powers intervention IIRC.
I'm pretty sure the CP does intervene in order to secure their client states in the East and to keep the balance of power as they see fit. That and getting rid of the mistake of sending Lenin they now see as a thorn in their side. This would also somehow save the Romanovs from being executed by the Cheka, either by butterfly or by rescue mission. Details are fuzzy on that.
 
I'm pretty sure the CP does intervene in order to secure their client states in the East and to keep the balance of power as they see fit. That and getting rid of the mistake of sending Lenin they now see as a thorn in their side. This would also somehow save the Romanovs from being executed by the Cheka, either by butterfly or by rescue mission. Details are fuzzy on that.

Oh I thought you were speaking of the CP intervening in Russia itself, I know about them taking Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltics. The CP not deploying to the Russian heartland means that the Reds can't play the nationalism card.
 
Oh I thought you were speaking of the CP intervening in Russia itself, I know about them taking Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltics. The CP not deploying to the Russian heartland means that the Reds can't play the nationalism card.
Basically yeah. The CP would still provide some assistance to the White Forces but they wouldn't go too far into Russia in helping defeat the Reds. Thinking about it, the CP would idly sit by and approve of the White Terror during and after TTL's Civil War. The Germans will also intervene in Finland just like OTL and be the same result as well. But yeah, they'd also focus more on securing their holdings, redrawing the map, and settling nationalist sentiments in their holdings.
 
Last edited:
On the issue of the State of Houston, how are citizens of said state viewed by the rest of the Union and the former CSA? Are citizens who voted to rejoin the CSA stripped of the US citizenship and basic civil rights and never allowed to regain it? And what would go for the politicians that supported rejoining the CSA as well? That for Kentucky as well.
 
On the issue of the State of Houston, how are citizens of said state viewed by the rest of the Union and the former CSA? Are citizens who voted to rejoin the CSA stripped of the US citizenship and basic civil rights and never allowed to regain it? And what would go for the politicians that supported rejoining the CSA as well? That for Kentucky as well.
After the end of the SGW, most residents of Houston and Kentucky who refuse to live under US rule leave for Texas. However, this is a very chaotic process in Houston. Those in Houston who participated in violent anti-US unrest during the interwar period were among the first to flee, when it became clear that Houston would not become part of the newly independent Republic of Texas.
 
So it's like the British Dominion/Commonwealth system, correct? There any other former German colonies that fall into this?

Yes, although the German Economic Association is somewhat more centralized as a political, economic, and defense alliance compared to the OTL Commonwealth of Nations.

Over the long-term, however, the German Economic Association will lose ground in the German-speaking countries of Africa to the African Economic and Security Association, a Congolese Federation-led alliance that eventually becomes a vehicle for the CF’s own foreign goals.
 
Top