TL-191: After the End

Very good points on urban civil defense in this world NYC.

Another notable feature of TTL’s US urban landscape are the large number of war memorials. As of TTL’s 2009, every major city has its own memorial district. Washington, DC has the feel of a mausoleum city in many ways.
I could see DC potentially eventually becoming the capitol again. Philly did get nuked and the main reason that DC lost it's status as the Capitol was the fact that it was really really hard to defend from the Confederates. Moving the capitol back to DC is a final triumphant sign that the Confederacy is dead and the Union is finally restored. After getting fought over in both Great War's it'd need to be largely reconstructed. But the whole damn thing could become one big Monument to the victory of the US an demise of the CSA. That after 80 years of the virus of the CSA existing America has finally been restored (even if the CSA states aren't getting admitted or represented anytime soon). I could also see the Flag being changed to reflect the annexation of the CSA even if those states aren't getting the Vote or representation in at least half a century (unless their's massive ethnic cleansing of those states which are resettled by "loyal Americans".

Frankly I think that at a minimum the US will ethnically cleanse Confederate white civilians from pretty much all of the border states at a minimum. It'll be awful but the "success" of deporting the Mormons to Hawaii and the struggle to police the entire former CSA will wear on the already very very tired US. I imagine the US will do a new "Homestead Act" in the states that will be ethnically cleansed (Virginia, Tennesee, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and the like). Former US Army veterans, black survivors of the Population Reduction, immigrants from friendly nations, the dispossessed from the destruction of the Confederate invasion of the US, and the like would be resettled. A little like a combination of the Indian Removal Act, the Nakbha, the expulsion of Misrahi/Sephardim from various Arab countries after 1948, the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after WW2, and Stalins various "Internal Deportations" of ethnic groups he considered unreliable. The expelled white populace would be deported to a handful of former Confederate states that are stripped of all industry and heavily garrisoned by the US army. They won't ever be allowed to be Independent but won't be formally annexed anytime soon. Basically a couple of massive reservations. You might also see the formation of a new semi independent homeland for black survivors of the "Population Reductions" from one of the former CSA states

It'll be awful and horrific in a lot of ways but I think it'll be more realistic considering the general perspective of this version of the US after Four wars with the CSA in 80 years and millions of dead (and all the destruction of the CSA invasion of the US in the SGW). Actually trying to police the entire former Confederacy would be a nightmare which would take a truly massive army even with the brutal tactics this US uses (Like responding to an insurgent killing a US soldier by taking several dozen or hundred innocent civilians hostage and then executing them). I think they'll eventually decide that if they can't find the insurgents in the sea of the Confederate populace across over a dozen states they'll reduce the number of states needing policing to a handful.

In terms of the pre war US/CSA border I imagine there's almost continous fortifications of various types that got built gradually over 80 years. Many would be obsolete or destroyed in the war but in the long run after the war you'll still be looking at a almost continous stretch of concrete, barbed wire, landmines, brick, and earthworks. Many sections might end up being preserved as National Parks.
 

Ficboy

Banned
I could see DC potentially eventually becoming the capitol again. Philly did get nuked and the main reason that DC lost it's status as the Capitol was the fact that it was really really hard to defend from the Confederates. Moving the capitol back to DC is a final triumphant sign that the Confederacy is dead and the Union is finally restored. After getting fought over in both Great War's it'd need to be largely reconstructed. But the whole damn thing could become one big Monument to the victory of the US an demise of the CSA. That after 80 years of the virus of the CSA existing America has finally been restored (even if the CSA states aren't getting admitted or represented anytime soon). I could also see the Flag being changed to reflect the annexation of the CSA even if those states aren't getting the Vote or representation in at least half a century (unless their's massive ethnic cleansing of those states which are resettled by "loyal Americans".

Frankly I think that at a minimum the US will ethnically cleanse Confederate white civilians from pretty much all of the border states at a minimum. It'll be awful but the "success" of deporting the Mormons to Hawaii and the struggle to police the entire former CSA will wear on the already very very tired US. I imagine the US will do a new "Homestead Act" in the states that will be ethnically cleansed (Virginia, Tennesee, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and the like). Former US Army veterans, black survivors of the Population Reduction, immigrants from friendly nations, the dispossessed from the destruction of the Confederate invasion of the US, and the like would be resettled. A little like a combination of the Indian Removal Act, the Nakbha, the expulsion of Misrahi/Sephardim from various Arab countries after 1948, the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after WW2, and Stalins various "Internal Deportations" of ethnic groups he considered unreliable. The expelled white populace would be deported to a handful of former Confederate states that are stripped of all industry and heavily garrisoned by the US army. They won't ever be allowed to be Independent but won't be formally annexed anytime soon. Basically a couple of massive reservations. You might also see the formation of a new semi independent homeland for black survivors of the "Population Reductions" from one of the former CSA states

It'll be awful and horrific in a lot of ways but I think it'll be more realistic considering the general perspective of this version of the US after Four wars with the CSA in 80 years and millions of dead (and all the destruction of the CSA invasion of the US in the SGW). Actually trying to police the entire former Confederacy would be a nightmare which would take a truly massive army even with the brutal tactics this US uses (Like responding to an insurgent killing a US soldier by taking several dozen or hundred innocent civilians hostage and then executing them). I think they'll eventually decide that if they can't find the insurgents in the sea of the Confederate populace across over a dozen states they'll reduce the number of states needing policing to a handful.

In terms of the pre war US/CSA border I imagine there's almost continous fortifications of various types that got built gradually over 80 years. Many would be obsolete or destroyed in the war but in the long run after the war you'll still be looking at a almost continous stretch of concrete, barbed wire, landmines, brick, and earthworks. Many sections might end up being preserved as National Parks.
I don't think they're just going to fully expel White Confederates from their native land given the sheer size of the population but I do think they will try hard to integrate into the United States. As for the Dixieland ethnic ghettos in the North, the residents are going to display any pre-Freedomite Confederate imagery and might even build monuments to soldiers for obvious reasons since any recognizable figures like Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis wouldn't be allowed and thus Richmond's Monument Avenue, New Orleans' Confederate themed areas like Lee Circle or Atlanta's Stone Mountain will be destroyed by the United States Army.
 
What's life like in Baja California, Sonora, and Chihuahua?

Is it radically diverse of both Mexicans and Americans.

Also is this TL version of Cabo San Lucas still a popular tourist spot if not more so for Americans since they don't need to use a passport?
 
What's life like in Baja California, Sonora, and Chihuahua?

Is it radically diverse of both Mexicans and Americans.

Also is this TL version of Cabo San Lucas still a popular tourist spot if not more so for Americans since they don't need to use a passport?
As of TTL’s 2009, Chihuahua, Sonora, and Baja California are relatively prosperous states. All three states are popular for retirees, along with New Mexico and California. Sonora and Baja California in particular are popular tourist destinations

Cabo San Lucas is indeed a popular tourist destination. The administrators and developers of Cabo have, especially since the 1980s, attempted to turn the city into a West Coast version of Havana. The city is also somewhat analogous to Las Vegas, with legalized gambling (Vegas in TTL never became a major metropolis).

All three states have seen demographic changes since the end of the Second Great War. Sonora and Chihuahua did not see significant anti-US opposition, and were among the first former Confederate states to gain admission to the Union. Sonora and Baja California in particular attracted significant influxes of outsiders after 1944; first in connection to the US military (especially the US Navy) and later in the 20th Century in connection to the tourism industry.
 

Ficboy

Banned
As of TTL’s 2009, Chihuahua, Sonora, and Baja California are relatively prosperous states. All three states are popular for retirees, along with New Mexico and California. Sonora and Baja California in particular are popular tourist destinations

Cabo San Lucas is indeed a popular tourist destination. The administrators and developers of Cabo have, especially since the 1980s, attempted to turn the city into a West Coast version of Havana. The city is also somewhat analogous to Las Vegas, with legalized gambling (Vegas in TTL never became a major metropolis).

All three states have seen demographic changes since the end of the Second Great War. Sonora and Chihuahua did not see significant anti-US opposition, and were among the first former Confederate states to gain admission to the Union. Sonora and Baja California in particular attracted significant influxes of outsiders after 1944; first in connection to the US military (especially the US Navy) and later in the 20th Century in connection to the tourism industry.
Tijuana, Hermosillo and Juarez will also be major American cities for the same reasons that affect their respective provinces.
 
Is California in TTL the same as in OTL or is it completely different or with some difference?

Like is LA still the center of the USA film industry and is San Fransisco now the center of the USA tech industry?
 
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Is California in TTL the same as in OTL or is it completely different or with some difference?

Like is LA still the center of the USA film industry and is San Fransisco now the center of the USA tech industry?
As of TTL’s 2009, southern California is still a major center of the US film industry, though there is now increasing competition from other locations.

The high tech industry in the US is somewhat more diffuse in comparison to our world. Bolstered by government support since the 1980s, many major centers of US high tech in TTL are located in the Northeast and Midwest.
 

Ficboy

Banned
As of TTL’s 2009, southern California is still a major center of the US film industry, though there is now increasing competition from other locations.

The high tech industry in the US is somewhat more diffuse in comparison to our world. Bolstered by government support since the 1980s, many major centers of US high tech in TTL are located in the Northeast and Midwest.
So what is black entertainment like in TL-191. It would be a lot darker than OTL after the Population Reduction.
 
I could see DC potentially eventually becoming the capitol again. Philly did get nuked and the main reason that DC lost it's status as the Capitol was the fact that it was really really hard to defend from the Confederates. Moving the capitol back to DC is a final triumphant sign that the Confederacy is dead and the Union is finally restored. After getting fought over in both Great War's it'd need to be largely reconstructed. But the whole damn thing could become one big Monument to the victory of the US an demise of the CSA. That after 80 years of the virus of the CSA existing America has finally been restored (even if the CSA states aren't getting admitted or represented anytime soon). I could also see the Flag being changed to reflect the annexation of the CSA even if those states aren't getting the Vote or representation in at least half a century (unless their's massive ethnic cleansing of those states which are resettled by "loyal Americans".
I think that Washington certainly resume its role as the fully fledged capital of the USA. But it will be a city crowded with monuments, memorials, and statues even more so than in our world.

Frankly I think that at a minimum the US will ethnically cleanse Confederate white civilians from pretty much all of the border states at a minimum. It'll be awful but the "success" of deporting the Mormons to Hawaii and the struggle to police the entire former CSA will wear on the already very very tired US. I imagine the US will do a new "Homestead Act" in the states that will be ethnically cleansed (Virginia, Tennesee, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and the like). Former US Army veterans, black survivors of the Population Reduction, immigrants from friendly nations, the dispossessed from the destruction of the Confederate invasion of the US, and the like would be resettled. A little like a combination of the Indian Removal Act, the Nakbha, the expulsion of Misrahi/Sephardim from various Arab countries after 1948, the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after WW2, and Stalins various "Internal Deportations" of ethnic groups he considered unreliable. The expelled white populace would be deported to a handful of former Confederate states that are stripped of all industry and heavily garrisoned by the US army. They won't ever be allowed to be Independent but won't be formally annexed anytime soon. Basically a couple of massive reservations. You might also see the formation of a new semi independent homeland for black survivors of the "Population Reductions" from one of the former CSA states

It'll be awful and horrific in a lot of ways but I think it'll be more realistic considering the general perspective of this version of the US after Four wars with the CSA in 80 years and millions of dead (and all the destruction of the CSA invasion of the US in the SGW). Actually trying to police the entire former Confederacy would be a nightmare which would take a truly massive army even with the brutal tactics this US uses (Like responding to an insurgent killing a US soldier by taking several dozen or hundred innocent civilians hostage and then executing them). I think they'll eventually decide that if they can't find the insurgents in the sea of the Confederate populace across over a dozen states they'll reduce the number of states needing policing to a handful.
Without downplaying the brutality of US counter-insurgency tactics in this world, I do not think that the US government in the postwar years would resort to ethnic cleansing particular states in response to anti-US violence.

-Turtledove went out of his way in the final book to include a scene in which Vice President Truman rebukes Michael Pound for voicing his support for large-scale killing of former Confederates. This indicates that the Dewey Administration, while pursuing the goal of reunion, has lines that it will not cross; especially if crossing those lines brings comparison to Featherston’s CSA.

-While there will be violence postwar, I don’t see full-scale rebellions I’m the former CSA akin to what happened in the series in Occupied Canada or Utah. The primary concern for most civilians who remain in the region will be survival.

-This is admittedly more speculative, but by 1944, the US military has a lot of experience with counter-insurgency. There’s likely a much better idea among US policy makers and military commanders as to what works and what will likely not. As harsh as the US response can be, the US will not pursue policies likely to both set back the political goal of reunion and drive large numbers of people into armed resistance.

In terms of the pre war US/CSA border I imagine there's almost continous fortifications of various types that got built gradually over 80 years. Many would be obsolete or destroyed in the war but in the long run after the war you'll still be looking at a almost continous stretch of concrete, barbed wire, landmines, brick, and earthworks. Many sections might end up being preserved as National Parks.
This is not something that I thought about, but I could see happening. Of course, the US will likely attempt to demolish all remaining former CS fortifications.
 
I think that Washington certainly resume its role as the fully fledged capital of the USA. But it will be a city crowded with monuments, memorials, and statues even more so than in our world.



Without downplaying the brutality of US counter-insurgency tactics in this world, I do not think that the US government in the postwar years would resort to ethnic cleansing particular states in response to anti-US violence.

-Turtledove went out of his way in the final book to include a scene in which Vice President Truman rebukes Michael Pound for voicing his support for large-scale killing of former Confederates. This indicates that the Dewey Administration, while pursuing the goal of reunion, has lines that it will not cross; especially if crossing those lines brings comparison to Featherston’s CSA.

-While there will be violence postwar, I don’t see full-scale rebellions I’m the former CSA akin to what happened in the series in Occupied Canada or Utah. The primary concern for most civilians who remain in the region will be survival.

-This is admittedly more speculative, but by 1944, the US military has a lot of experience with counter-insurgency. There’s likely a much better idea among US policy makers and military commanders as to what works and what will likely not. As harsh as the US response can be, the US will not pursue policies likely to both set back the political goal of reunion and drive large numbers of people into armed resistance.



This is not something that I thought about, but I could see happening. Of course, the US will likely attempt to demolish all remaining former CS fortifications.
By 2020 TTL, what’re relations like between the dependents of former Canada and the CSA with the rest of America?
 
By 2020 TTL, what’re relations like between the dependents of former Canada and the CSA with the rest of America?
My personal theory

Canada- There is still a "Canadian" Identity but it's much weaker then OTL. By 2020 the majority of the populace of OTL Canada consider themselves "American". Some are old Canadians who assimilated into the American identity. But most of the populace are as a result of policies enacted by the US government descended from Americans who immigrated after the annexation of Canada attracted by special tax regimes and free land seized from rebellious Canadians or immigrants from abroad (mostly from specific friendly nations like Germany) attracted by the same things. There has also been signifigant immigration as the more ardent Canadians have fled abroad. Arguably the most "Canadian" places on Earth are now in Australia and New Zealand where numerous Canadian patriots fled too.
 
My personal theory

Canada- There is still a "Canadian" Identity but it's much weaker then OTL. By 2020 the majority of the populace of OTL Canada consider themselves "American". Some are old Canadians who assimilated into the American identity. But most of the populace are as a result of policies enacted by the US government descended from Americans who immigrated after the annexation of Canada attracted by special tax regimes and free land seized from rebellious Canadians or immigrants from abroad (mostly from specific friendly nations like Germany) attracted by the same things. There has also been signifigant immigration as the more ardent Canadians have fled abroad. Arguably the most "Canadian" places on Earth are now in Australia and New Zealand where numerous Canadian patriots fled too.
Agreed. Even by 1940 in the books, there were plenty of Canadians who disliked the occupation but weren't willing to take up arms. The rebellion of the Second Great War, massive as it was, faded out quickly once the CSA was dead. Why? Because although the insurgents considered themselves Canadian and loved Canada, they weren't willing to throw their lives away. And you can bet that for every diehard Canadian who fought, there were two who put their heads down and thought eh, they might be right- I hate the Yanks too- but I'm not going to get killed to expel them! So, the generation of "rebel" Canadians (barring Alexander Pomeroy-types) largely sees independence postwar as nice, but don't hold your breath, and they certainly aren't willing to actively fight any more. What will that teach the generation born 1945-1955, born into a Canada which has been under American rule for 25-30 years? It will teach them that Canada was something their grandparents knew, but that it isn't now. What will they feel more affinity towards: Canada, something neither they nor their parents ever really knew and which they'll associate with Daddy's war wound, or the USA, which teaches them and provides a society for them to live in? Once the Canadians born in 1950 or so grow up, they'll think of themselves as Americans with Canadian grandparents, and the US will reward them. All this ignores the immigrants and internal migrants moving up to Canada, seeing it as a place to start a new life postwar and Americanising it even more. So, by the 1960s, Canada will be fully integrated into the Union (albiet I do think the "British" would be removed from British Columbia, for obvious reasons, and borders might shift).
Certainly, by the 1980s at the latest, the idea of a Canadian identity will be dead in the water.
 
Agreed. Even by 1940 in the books, there were plenty of Canadians who disliked the occupation but weren't willing to take up arms. The rebellion of the Second Great War, massive as it was, faded out quickly once the CSA was dead. Why? Because although the insurgents considered themselves Canadian and loved Canada, they weren't willing to throw their lives away. And you can bet that for every diehard Canadian who fought, there were two who put their heads down and thought eh, they might be right- I hate the Yanks too- but I'm not going to get killed to expel them! So, the generation of "rebel" Canadians (barring Alexander Pomeroy-types) largely sees independence postwar as nice, but don't hold your breath, and they certainly aren't willing to actively fight any more. What will that teach the generation born 1945-1955, born into a Canada which has been under American rule for 25-30 years? It will teach them that Canada was something their grandparents knew, but that it isn't now. What will they feel more affinity towards: Canada, something neither they nor their parents ever really knew and which they'll associate with Daddy's war wound, or the USA, which teaches them and provides a society for them to live in? Once the Canadians born in 1950 or so grow up, they'll think of themselves as Americans with Canadian grandparents, and the US will reward them. All this ignores the immigrants and internal migrants moving up to Canada, seeing it as a place to start a new life postwar and Americanising it even more. So, by the 1960s, Canada will be fully integrated into the Union (albiet I do think the "British" would be removed from British Columbia, for obvious reasons, and borders might shift).
Certainly, by the 1980s at the latest, the idea of a Canadian identity will be dead in the water.
More or less my thoughts. Though I think the Americanization will be a lot more the result of Americans and foreign immigrants who quickly assimilate settling in Canada. I think the US would seize land, companies, and other possessions from "Rebel" or "Disloyal" Canadians and hand them out to American and foreign immigrants. Combine that with favorable tax policies (I'm thinking much much much lower tax rates for Americans who immigrate to former Canada for the first five years or so versus staying in the US among other policies) and by the 1940's the majority of the populace are either American immigrants, the descendants of American immigrants, or immigrants from friendly countries who quickly Americanize. That percentage will only grow with time.

A lot of the most fervent Canadians will either immigrate willingly to Australia or New Zealand, be deported to those countries, or be resettled in penal colonies in the far far north in OTL Nunavut.
 
By 2020 TTL, what’re relations like between the dependents of former Canada and the CSA with the rest of America?
By 2020 in TTL, relations between Canadian-Americans and the rest of the country have been normalized. There’s a distinct Canadian-American identity that’s developed since the end of the SGW. This is an identity that was shaped by a general resignation that the US could not be defeated militarily, but still opposed to remaining under military occupation. Reconciliation was facilitated by a recognition by the Dewey, Truman, and Humphrey administrations that the long military occupation of former Canada had been severely flawed in many ways, and that a new direction was needed.

By 2020, if Canadian-Americans have more or less universally negative views on the “Occupied Canada” period, the view of Canadian-Americans towards the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, is more or less universally positive. There’s a strong belief in Canadian-American political culture that the only true defense against the potential abuse of power by the US government is a zealous defense of the values adherent in the Constitution. Morgan Reynolds, the first Canadian-American President (1981-1989) made this a recurring theme on issues related to civil liberty and the rule of law.

By 2020, many of the USA’s most notable scholars of Constitutional law and jurists are Canadian-American, as are two Supreme Court justices.

All three major US political parties actively compete for the Canadian-American vote, although the Republican Party, as of 2020, is the most popular vehicle in Canadian-American politics; this is a legacy both of the Republican Party’s late 20th Century “Northern Strategy” and of the popular Reynolds Administration. In 2020, the Canadian-American states remain among the most prosperous states, even in the wake of the Great Housing Crash of 2019.

-
In 2020, relations between residents of the Midsouth (the former core states of the CSA) and the rest of the Union are still somewhat strained. While the region was rebuilt after the SGW, the states of the Midsouth still haven’t recovered demographically from the region’s disastrous 20th Century: the FGW, the Red Rebellion, the SGW, and the Destruction. There was also a large postwar flight (mostly to Texas) of those residents unwilling to accept US rule. In 2020, the Midsouth also still lags behind the rest of the country economically. Efforts by various state governments to boost tourism over the last few decades, such as legalizing gambling and decriminalizing the recreational use of many substances, haven’t really worked as intend

The region remains haunted by the legacy of the Destruction. In 2020 it’s a crime that remains unforgotten and unforgiven in the USA. One of the dominant themes of the literature, art, and movies produced by people from the Midsouth since the end of the SGW is attempting to escape from the shadow of the CSA and Featherston, but never succeeding. Even in 2020, any aspect of a distinct “Southern” identity that goes beyond having a particular accent or rooting for a particular football team can generate suspicion.

In other words, even as late as 2020, while the formal political integration of the former CSA is long over, there’s still a strong current of alienation among residents of the Midsouth from the rest of the USA.
 
By 2020 in TTL, relations between Canadian-Americans and the rest of the country have been normalized. There’s a distinct Canadian-American identity that’s developed since the end of the SGW. This is an identity that was shaped by a general resignation that the US could not be defeated militarily, but still opposed to remaining under military occupation. Reconciliation was facilitated by a recognition by the Dewey, Truman, and Humphrey administrations that the long military occupation of former Canada had been severely flawed in many ways, and that a new direction was needed.

By 2020, if Canadian-Americans have more or less universally negative views on the “Occupied Canada” period, the view of Canadian-Americans towards the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, is more or less universally positive. There’s a strong belief in Canadian-American political culture that the only true defense against the potential abuse of power by the US government is a zealous defense of the values adherent in the Constitution. Morgan Reynolds, the first Canadian-American President (1981-1989) made this a recurring theme on issues related to civil liberty and the rule of law.

By 2020, many of the USA’s most notable scholars of Constitutional law and jurists are Canadian-American, as are two Supreme Court justices.

All three major US political parties actively compete for the Canadian-American vote, although the Republican Party, as of 2020, is the most popular vehicle in Canadian-American politics; this is a legacy both of the Republican Party’s late 20th Century “Northern Strategy” and of the popular Reynolds Administration. In 2020, the Canadian-American states remain among the most prosperous states, even in the wake of the Great Housing Crash of 2019.

-
In 2020, relations between residents of the Midsouth (the former core states of the CSA) and the rest of the Union are still somewhat strained. While the region was rebuilt after the SGW, the states of the Midsouth still haven’t recovered demographically from the region’s disastrous 20th Century: the FGW, the Red Rebellion, the SGW, and the Destruction. There was also a large postwar flight (mostly to Texas) of those residents unwilling to accept US rule. In 2020, the Midsouth also still lags behind the rest of the country economically. Efforts by various state governments to boost tourism over the last few decades, such as legalizing gambling and decriminalizing the recreational use of many substances, haven’t really worked as intend

The region remains haunted by the legacy of the Destruction. In 2020 it’s a crime that remains unforgotten and unforgiven in the USA. One of the dominant themes of the literature, art, and movies produced by people from the Midsouth since the end of the SGW is attempting to escape from the shadow of the CSA and Featherston, but never succeeding. Even in 2020, any aspect of a distinct “Southern” identity that goes beyond having a particular accent or rooting for a particular football team can generate suspicion.

In other words, even as late as 2020, while the formal political integration of the former CSA is long over, there’s still a strong current of alienation among residents of the Midsouth from the rest of the USA.
What would you say constitutes the Midsouth vs the rest of the former CSA?
 
Anybody else feel the US would have taken Baja California from Mexico either after the FGW or the SGW? It just seems for the US having their main Pacific base for the USN be a handful of miles from a generally hostile country would be seen as iffy. Plus the Mexican population of Baja would be pretty tiny. And from the Mexican perspective Baja has little value other then a chip at the negotiating table.
 
Anybody else feel the US would have taken Baja California from Mexico either after the FGW or the SGW? It just seems for the US having their main Pacific base for the USN be a handful of miles from a generally hostile country would be seen as iffy. Plus the Mexican population of Baja would be pretty tiny. And from the Mexican perspective Baja has little value other then a chip at the negotiating table.
Honestly I thought it was all but stated they were keeping it after capturing it in the SGW.

Reminds me of an idea I had where the USA re-annexes the original territory of the Confederacy whilst keeping Anglo-Canada, Bermuda, the Bahamas, and Baja California... BUT spinning off Sonora and Chihuahua together and Cuba as republics on account of anything the USA itself didn't take wasn't of interest to or approved by them. And hey, more buffer states are always fun in any situation. :p
 
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