TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Dixieland1861 Banned

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    Personally, I've been on "Photos from Featherston's Confederacy/TL-191" and it follows TL-191: After the End in a number of aspects, check it out guys.
     
  2. Shane W New Member

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    Am I the only one that thought Mexico should have lost some territory to Guatemala
     
  3. TR1 Well-Known Member

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    Since Guatemala wasn't particularly ascendant or even important, yes, you were the only one.
     
  4. Cire Mr. Wrinkled Shirt

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    In 1823 (OTL) Mexico's southern provinces broke away and formed the Federal Republic of Central America. The Republic of Central America then broke up in 1841 and became the sovereign nations of Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica. Today these countries are sometimes referred to as Mexico's lost territories to the south. I could easily imagine a resurgent Mexico sending troops into these countries in order to annex them back into Mexico, but I cannot imagine Mexico losing territory to Guatemala.
     
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  5. filrabat Active Member

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    Tremendously great timeline, David; be I very, very late to this party!

    Yet another music question. I accept there is no rock n' roll or hip hop analogue in this timeline. The predominate pop music seems real world 40s Big Band mixed in with Latin and E. European folk music.

    About the music technology itself. I see nothing that could butterflies away synthesizers, snare drum machines, and other instruments that are part of OTL dance/techno/house music - even if those genres likely don't exist in that timeline.

    What extent, if any, do electronic instruments influence Fabrika Punk, Stomp, Mento Punk, and so forth? Also, you said that equatorial Africa in particular is starting to export its music style to at least Germany, A-H, and Europe. Could they be pioneers of electronica, if no other genre did it already?
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
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  6. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! I’m glad that you enjoyed it.

    I agree completely. That music technology is there by TTL’s 1980s and 1990s, even if the most popular genres and styles are different to the pop music from our world in the same period.

    By TTL’s 1990s and 2000s, electronic instruments are very influential in all of those genres (although given the iconoclastic nature of the counterculture scene in many countries during those decades, the usage of electronic instruments can vary wildly by individual band).

    You’re spot on in noting the importance of the countries of equatorial Africa as a source of pop music by the mid-to-late 2000s (although bands from that part of the world have been playing as far apart as the Austro-Hungarian, Brazilian, German, and US circuits since at least the late 1970s in TTL). The closest analogues to OTL Electronica (“Statica”) will become more popular in TTL’s 2010s (although musicologists and critics alike will be in strong disagreement as to which proceeding genres - and which national markets - contributed the most to the new genre).
     
  7. atheofanous Well-Known Member

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    Do the old Confederate states adapt northern rules for football?

    What happens to Irv Morrell and Michael Pound?
     
  8. atheofanous Well-Known Member

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    Abner Dowling was another character. I can see him moving to the General Staff office in Philly.

    This is a great thread. It got me looking up the list of characters.
     
  9. Cire Mr. Wrinkled Shirt

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    Hello David, I just wanted to say that I stumbled across your video on You Tube a while back (mind totally blown) and that it inspired me to create my own timeline 191 continuation story. I'm not so good with the minor details, and if someone were to ask me what the favorite breed of dog was amongst Confederate aristocrats during the 1930s, it might take me a while to dredge up an answer. Anyway, I was kinda disappointed when Harry Turtledove decided to end the series in the manner that he did, and after I finished reading the very last page of "In at the Death" I asked myself, Hmm...Of all the characters in the 191 universe, which character would most likely go onto have a successful life during the postwar years?"

    Well, I decided that Jerry Dover might stand a very good chance of improving his lot in life, and I concocted a scenario in which Dover gets recruited / strong armed by agents of the US government to help them make propaganda films in Hollywood, California. (Based upon notes in his file from his time in the POW camp) Anyway, I had a whole bunch of wild scenarios happening to Dover in Hollywood, his wife leaves him and takes their son back to Georgia, he marries Melanie the woman who seduced him during the war, eventually he divorces her and marries a young starlet who is analogous to Elizabeth Montgomery (Bewitched). Eventually Dover tries to kill the lead singer of the Silver Beetles as they are giving a concert at the Hollywood Bowl, because he is worried that their music might be having a negative influence upon the young people of America.

    Another point of view character I had was an analog of Lee Harvey Oswald. In the 191 universe Oswald is also a bit of a loner and he has been discharged from the military due to his behavioral problems. One day Oswald finds a supplement in a Sunday newspaper which claims that the Freedom Party is alive and well in Sonora and Chihuahua (which have since been returned to Mexico). After reading the article Oswald becomes obsessed with finding a copy of the Featherston book "Over Open Sights". He actually finds the autographed copy which once belonged to Lulu Mattox in a used bookstore in Brooklyn. However, during his search to find the book, Oswald is fired from his job with the New York City School District, by his black supervisor, who is a decorated military veteran, he is kicked out of his apartment, and becomes homeless. Oswald tries to travel to Chihuahua City via bus, but since he doesn't have a valid passport he cannot buy a ticket across the border, and has to settle on a bus headed to Brownsville instead. However, the person sitting next to him on the bus notices the tattered newspaper article which Oswald keeps reading over and over, and he also discovers that the book Oswald keeps reading isn't a "The Catcher in the Rye" the cover on the book is fake, and he is actually reading Over Open Sights. Oswald is attacked and beaten by the person sitting next to him, and he is thrown off the bus somewhere in Louisiana.

    I was also working on a point of view character roughly based upon Angela Davis in OTL. This particular character is a black woman living on an agricultural collective near the Aral Sea in The Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. Angie would have been born in one of the Confederate death camps towards the end of the war, but her mother decided to take her to Russia following the 1947 revolution. The American blacks living in Russia feel frustrated that Moscow isn't doing more to promote revolution on the North American continent, so the members of the collective pull their resources and decide to send Angie back to the US to foment revolution. However, Angie's main goal for wanting to return to America is to track down her father, whom she knows was a guard at one of the camps where her mother was held.

    Angie eventually ends up in Sonora where she meets Oswald. At first the two dislike each other, but after time they realize that they have both been blinded by fanaticism and they have nothing but each other in the world. The settle down and decide to raise a small farm in the mountains of Sonora. My final scene was to have Oswald and Angie sitting on chairs in front of their small ramshackle house as they listen to Jim Morrison sining the song "Tin Man "Well oz never did give nothing to the tin man which he didn't already have..."

    The big problem I ran into was trying to create the world in which these characters live, and to try to make it seem both plausible, entertaining, and not contradicting anything found on the last page of In at the Death. Well, I've kind of abandoned the idea of creating a full fledged story, and instead what I've done is to take my rough drafts and to chop them up into short segments which I've been posting here during the past few weeks.

    Well, although our views of things following In at the Death seem to differ somewhat, I just wanted to say that your video is what got my ball rolling.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  10. filrabat Active Member

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    It's been a while since I read the later parts thread not written by David, but I think the former CSA does play by northern rules post-SGW. Fairly late in the thread, somebody listed all the teams in the NFL (or maybe TTL's equivalent). I distinctly remember a Southern Conference of the league (including one team in Cuba and I think two in the Republic of Texas).
     
  11. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    I did a write-up for Irving Morrell on page 99 of this thread.

    -

    Michael Pound serves in the US Army until 1950, when he is retired from active duty (over his very loud objections). Due to his old friendship and time of service with now Chief of Staff Irving Morrell, Pound is brought in as an instructor at the recently founded College of Armored Warfare in Topeka, Kansas.

    Pound spends the rest of his life as an instructor at the College. He dies in 1965. Irving Morrell, by then retired from public life himself, delivers the eulogy at Pound’s funeral; Mildred Morrell-Quigley later writes that, “My father’s eulogy was for Michael Pound, yet also could have been for himself as well.”
     
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  12. Captain Reynolds Amature Sci-fi Writer

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    You know, I can see this happening, and consider it cannon in my book. Pound is hte type of man who would probably stay in until he died if he could, but teaching tactics in armored warfare is probably the best thing for him. It allows him to teach future commanders and at least try to ensure that there are no mass casualties in barrel commanders in any future conflicts.

    There are a few characters who I wonder what happened to them after the war ended:
    Armstrong Grimes
    Sam Carsten
    Clearance Potter
    George Patton
     
  13. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    What ever happen to the Canadian identity? Was there not a move to break away from America? (The whole point of Canada is NOT being American.)
     
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  14. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    Armstrong Grimes spent two years being rotated around the former CSA along with his men. In spite of their worst fears, the intermittent violence that would plague most of the region for the first decade after the war never coalesced into a major rebellion (as had occurred in Occupied Canada and Utah).

    In the 1944 elections, and throughout his first two years in office, President Dewey repeated his twin promises to “rebuild and reform” the Armed Forces and to successfully re-absorb the Southern states. Grimes resigned himself to never being released from active duty.

    In late 1946, while stationed in Pascagoula, Mississippi, Grimes was brought before one Captain Coolidge Schneider. Schneider, also a veteran of the Canada and Utah theaters during the Second Great War, informed Grimes of a new unit being put together that would consist, “...of those like us.” While not offering any details, Schneider made it clear that it was Grimes’s choice to either stay in Pascagoula on occupation duty, or to join a new unit in the “rebuilt and reformed” Armed Forces.

    Grimes accepted the offer on the spot.

    The training for what would the first generation of the United States Army Irregular Forces was grueling, having a high drop out rate. Grimes succeeded in finishing the year-long course (which took the candidates across the Rocky Mountain West), and began his service with his fellow Grey Berets as Sergeant First Class in January 1948. A two-year-long Officers Training Course at Fort McSweeney, Oregon from 1952-1954 would see Grimes promoted to Second Lieutenant.

    It was during his time in Oregon that Grimes would meet his wife, who ran the best-reviewed bed and breakfast in Fort McSweeney. Their marriage was strained by his long absences, yet ultimately endured.

    Armstrong Grimes spent twenty-two years in the Grey Berets, eventually reaching the rank of Captain in 1968 during the Fourth Pacific War. During that conflict, Grimes and his fellow Grey Berets fought in Operation Grizzly (in Mongolia and northern China) and Operation Rainbow Dawn (in Korea). Wounded in action during the Battle of Seoul, Grimes would be honorably discharged in 1973. Grimes passes away in 1985, survived by his wife and three children (two daughters and a son).

    -

    Sam Carsten dies in 1947 from melanoma. He is buried by the Department of the Navy in the National War Cemetary, just outside of Washington, D.C. in West Virginia.
     
  15. Captain Reynolds Amature Sci-fi Writer

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    Thanks for that. Good to see Grimes becomes part of something greater, and I suppose all of those sunburns would result in something that would kill Carsten.

    I am going to guess that Patton and Potter faded into obscurity after the war, and kept under constant observation, or do you have more planned for them later?
     
  16. Ceslas Well-Known Member

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    I'd prefer Sam Carsten to not die of melanoma if only because it means indulging the repetitive zinc oxide bit. That and it just seems mean-spirited.
     
  17. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    George Patton spent the last fifteen years of his life in Fort Custer, Wyoming - a military prison for high-ranking ex-Confederate military officers. Although afforded a degree of respect from his Second Great War opponents (namely Morrell and Ironhewer), the vast majority of Americans never forgave the general who had led Featherston’s treasonous Operation Blackbeard.

    Patton spent the rest of his life reading (or re-reading) every military history that he could get his hands on and writing his memoirs, which would be published posthumously. He died in 1959.

    -

    In between working on his own memoirs, Clarence Potter found himself with little else to do except to walk the streets of a devastated Richmond. He knew that the US government would never let him out of their sights (he wouldn’t have done anything differently in their shoes).

    Potter was never reconciled to US rule, yet was also realistic (or perhaps just cold blooded) enough to recognize that the Confederacy would never return. The former intelligence officer was never tempted to take up arms against the US authorities, or even attempt to flee the former CSA for Texas (or somewhere farther afield). As he acidly reminded more than one angry, desperate ex-Confederate Second Great War veteran that he encountered on his daily walks, the USA had won a total victory: it was pointless to pretend otherwise.

    In July 1946, just after Potter had completed a new draft of How I Blew Up Philadelphia, he was murdered on one of these walks by one of these angry, desperate ex-CS Army veterans (who himself did not survive the resulting one-sided firefight against arriving US military police); the murderer took offense to Potter’s “defeatist treason.”

    Potter was cremated. His ashes were scattered in the Atlantic Ocean outside of US territorial waters.

    The last draft of How I Blew Up Philadelphia was confiscated by the US military authorities, and would sit in the National Archives for the next fifty years, before being published in a heavily annotated edition in 1996 by Yale University Press. The book was controversial for historians and the general public alike; very few people who have read Potter’s memoir are entirely sure where the author’s self-serving personal worldview ends and where his frank descriptions of the Featherston dictatorship (and late Confederate society) begins.

    In 2009, Clarence Potter is still among the most loathed people in US history.
     
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  18. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    Nothing mean-spirited was intended. Carsten’s melanoma is alluded to at the end of In at the Death. Sadly, given the probable state of medical technology in the late 1940s in TTL, Carsten’s long-term survival is not likely.
     
  19. Pax Banned

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    In my opinion this is what would have happened, but it's a great TL anyways and a very enjoyable read:

    Liberia would have become an Israel analogue, with the Liberian's expulsion of native Africans being akin to the Palestinian disputes ITTL.

    The periphery of the CSA is annexed into the US (so TN, AK, KY, maybe VA) in an analogue to the OTL Soviet expansions while the rest, after time under military governments, end up like Texas. They're stripped of their industry and most of their coal, oil, and natural gas production goes to the US.

    The US gets into a cold war with Japan, and Germany ends up as a kind of France/Britain or, if the US=USSR, China analogue where they're not really enemies to the US but not really allied either.

    The Mormons are sent to former CSA Mexico to get them out of the country but close enough to be kept under watch. Utah is populated with American troops and Population Reduction survivors. Mexico becomes like Romania IOTL, Texas is like Poland. States like MS (with high number of blacks) are like Hungary, the rest are like DDR. Canada is an analogue to the Ukraine/Belarus/Kazakhstan, and Utah/Mormon Mexico is an analogue to Chechnya/the Caucasus.

    The US develops an extensive welfare system akin to most European models, but soon finds debt problems while it attempts to keep this welfare system while keeping a large army to garrison Canada, Mexico, and the CSA.

    US and Germany end up getting into proxy wars over African independence movements, this likely ends in a German-American split.

    Japan likely collapses from internal issues, at which point the US likely swoops in and tries to nibble away at some of it's possessions.

    Around the mid 80s the US' bloated budget and high deficit come crawling back. It faces an increasingly disgruntled Southern populous who have grown tired of the mistreatment they've faced sine 1944. A reformist minded US president comes to power on the platform of fixing the budget, bringing back US industrial jobs, and fix the economy.

    This president is ultimately faced with the fact that the occupations of Mexico and the South are too costly for the US to continues and, sometime around 1989 agrees to remove almost all US troops from those areas. The South and Mexico regain their independence akin to the 1989 Revolutions of the Eastern Bloc. Maybe New Orleans becomes a Kaliningrad analogue, and LA a Baltic Analogue?

    This proves hard for the US to take. The president is ousted in 1992, but by then the US faces other severe internal issues. Canada and possibly Alaska (if it's annexed, I'd assume it is) gain independence after mass demonstrations and revolts.

    The US is humiliated and, when the Mormons in Chihuahua and Sonora try the same the Americans decide enough is enough and move in to crush their uprising in an analogue to the Chechen Wars. Mexico descends into socio-political turmoil akin to the breakup of Yugoslavia, possibly with ethnic attacks against Amerindian/Mormon communities in Mexico.

    Germany is like TTL's America, and becomes the dominant world power. An economically troubled US forms a CIS analogue with it's former puppets in the South and Canada.

    American settlers in Canada could end up being the cause to TTL's Crimea Crisis and Ukrainian conflict, perhaps with US annexation of something like the Ontario peninsula and propping up of pro-US rebel strongholds in Alberta or something.
     
  20. Ceslas Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean you. I mean Turtledove. Going through that stupid sunburn bit over and over again and using it to kill off a character as everything is coming to a happy ending is mean-spirited on Turtledove's part and I see no need nor desire to indulge it.