TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
True. But hey he had Hubert Humphrey,maybe these guys could make an appearance
Barry Goldwater makes a brief appearance in one of the books about the interwar years as a Congressman from "Tucson, New Mexico" who gets into an argument on the House floor with a Mormon representative from Deseret. He gets dragged off the floor by the Sergeant-At-Arms as he is yelling something to the effect of extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.
Bill and Hillary Clinton are both (probably) butterflied away, as would be Donald Trump, depending upon whether his grandfather emigrated from Germany in that timeline.
George Wallace would probably have existed in that timeline because he was born a little more than fifty years after the War of Secession, so his parents probably would have met, married, and produced him.
He would probably have been more extreme in that timeline than our version of George Wallace.
Decided to do a reread and so far the first question is how did the Dutch lose Surinam? The Treaty of Aachen doesn't mention Brazil taking it but it's shown as Brazilian territory in the first world map.
Also a bit surprised the US didn't make a move for French Guiana if only to nab a base in South America.
Also a bit surprised the US didn't make a move for French Guiana if only to nab a base in South America.
I’m afraid that this was something that I did not think about. It would not have been implausible in this world for the Empire of Brazil to have purchased Suriname from the Netherlands sometime within the first five years after the end of the SGW, given the devastation suffered by the Dutch during that conflict.
Remember, this is the same world where the Dutch decided to sell the Netherlands East Indies to Japan during the Interwar period (something that I imagine the Germans and the British alike would have been alarmed about, yet I don’t think is ever addressed).
I imagined that Brazil gained that territory after the First Great War in TTL. In any case, the USA is uninterested in challenging another great power in the Western Hemisphere when there are greater threats closer to home (over territory that no one in the American government is interested in).
More or less this. Barry Goldwater was mentioned as a background character in TL-191 (yet never gains the national prominence or ideological influence that he did in our world).
Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump do not exist. As I said earlier in this thread, I tried to move away from the tendency in the series to feature OTL political or military figures showing up in almost the exact same positions as IOTL long after the PoD.
George Wallace is tougher to place in TL-191, since I used ~1920 as the cut off date for OTL figures. Given what happened in the CSA in the series, an analogue to Wallace probably would not have had a life or career resembling his OTL counterpart.
As of 2009?
Politically it’s long been over. The military occupation of the former CSA came to an end in 1976 (with the readmission of South Carolina). Beginning in TTL’s 1980s, many southerners began to leave the former CSA in search of better opportunities in the rest of the USA. Thanks to postwar reconstruction (and subsequent government investment over the next six decades) modern infrastructure now connects the south with the rest of the USA.
Socially and economically, the situation is still not the best. As of TTL’s 2009, the former CSA still hasn’t recovered from the region’s massive demographic losses throughout TTL’s 20th Century - the First Great War, the Red Rebellions, the Second Great War, the Destruction - while economically the region still lags behind the rest of the USA (many southern state governments will do just about anything to attract greater outside investment and new taxpayers).
Socially, integration with the rest of the country hasn’t been a smooth process. Many non-southerners were still angry at the former CSA for Featherston’s prewar atrocities and Operation Blackbeard - not to mention horrified and disgusted by the Destruction. Within the former CSA, the vast majority of the first postwar generation to come of age was appalled by what their parents and grandparents had either collaborated with or participated in - volunteering for the US military even during the military occupation was an act of rebellion for many young people in the 1950s and 1960s. A dominant theme among the writers and filmmakers from this generation (and those that followed) is trying to escape from the former Confederacy but never being able to escape from the guilt.
To put it another way, the only Confederate government buildings preserved by the US authorities after 1944 were at the sites of the Destruction.
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Usually their vote is for the Democrats, although, as political scientists and sociologists discovered in TTL’s 1990s and 2000s, these voting patterns shifted as ex-southerners left their urban (“Dixieland”) enclaves for Socialist or Republican-leaning exurbs (TTL’s equivent to OTL’s suburbs, which did not begin to really expand until the late 1990s and early 2000s).
As of 2009? The USA is generally very religious. The difference with OTL American culture is that religious belief is considered to be a private affair (in the home or at one’s chosen place of worship). For example, the public would understand a person having a personal, religious opposition to abortion, but would also consider it in bad taste for a politician to attempt to use it as a wedge issue.
On a side note, as of TTL’s 2009, Protestants are a plurality of the US population, while the Roman Catholic Church is the largest single active Christian denomination in the country. The USA also has the world’s largest Jewish population (which numbers around 14 million). Due to immigration from East Asia, Southeast Asia, Bharat, and the Middle East, there are growing numbers of Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims (among others) as well.
As of 2009, the Canadian states are generally among the wealthiest in the Union. Politically, the Canadian states (and most Canadian-Americans) tend to vote for the Republican Party (although Alberta still leans towards the Democrats, New Brunswick and Newfoundland still lean towards the Socialists, while British Columbia and Ontario are swing states in most elections).
After the Second Great War (and the defeat of the Second Canadian Uprising), the US military footprint began to recede with reconstruction - with the postwar US economic expansion (and the formal end to military occupation that began in Alberta in the 1950s), there were many Canadians that began to settle south of the former international border.
The politics of most Canadian-Americans are still characterized in 2009 by a sense of pragmatism, and shaped by a postwar public culture that was fearless in demanding that the US government live up to the rule of law (and the promises guaranteed by the Constitution). It’s no accident that many prominent civil libertarians (and some of the most prominent scholars of Constitutional law) in the late 20th Century USA have been Canadian-Americans.
The administration of Morgan Reynolds (1981-1989) is remembered for emphasizing the themes of good government, civil liberty, and social reconciliation that ran through his speeches and policy initiatives.
The population of New York City is just over eight million people as of 2009. However, the landmarks (and demographics) are rather different from OTL NYC.
In the US at least, there has never been a DADT analogue and gays have been allowed to serve since the 80s as confirmed by David sometime ago.
Considering that the Abrams came from necessity to fight the Soviets IOTL, anything similar to the modern variant might not be around til 2020. The first M1 than entered service in 1980 might just be the US' MBT as of 2009.
Edit: In fact, what is TTL's overall tech level?
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The current barrel model in the US Army is the Morrel Mk V. There are similarities to the OTL M1 Abrams, but there are technical and engineering differences as well. The Morrel Mk VI is scheduled to enter service in 2020.
The USA in TTL might not have a hostile superpower competitor like the USSR as of 2009, but all of its great power rivals (or hypothetical future rivals) have made significant investments in armored warfare-related R&D.
It depends on the field. In TTL’s 2009, there are some broad similarities with the tech levels of OTL, with certain areas slightly behind our world, such as high tech. On the other hand, there has been more investment in space-related technologies by all of the world’s great powers by 2009.
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Had the Japanese Empire survived by let's say avoiding Ishii for example, could they ever hope to be cold war like rivals with the US/CDS or would they be considered akin to another major power like Brazil, A-H, pre 1980s Ottoman Empire, and so on?