TL-191.2 = Turtledove Improved!

Particularly if you call it a Turtledove timeline and don't want actual Turtledove characters in a Turtledove timeline. I assume Morrel, Dowling, Blackford and Hamburger and all the other expies of real-life people will also not be showing up for the same reason Featherston will not be. :rolleyes:

GOD IN HEAVEN!!!!!!! OK!!! OK, I surrender!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sheesh!!

Look, . . . I am NOT interested in the POV characters of Turtledove's. I am more interested in the political sweep of his narrative, which I find to be off in many places and questionable in others. Some are big and important to me, but no one else. Others are big and important to others, but not me!

For example, I find it ridiculous that the ruling party of the CSA for the 19th and into the 20th C. would call themselves "Whigs"! The folks who seceded were mainly Democrats IOTL. Doesn't it make more sense for them to keep that name than change it to the name of the opposing party before secession??

And the few OTL Whigs in the CSA; what, now, do they call themselves now that the Democrats have usurped their name??

I understand that this isn't a big deal to many of you, but it IS for ME!

I really started this thread to get HELP from you folks, as many of you seem to have knowledge about this period that complements mine.

Instead, I get attacked. It is very disheartening. :(
 
GOD IN HEAVEN!!!!!!! OK!!! OK, I surrender!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sheesh!!

Look, . . . I am NOT interested in the POV characters of Turtledove's. I am more interested in the political sweep of his narrative, which I find to be off in many places and questionable in others. Some are big and important to me, but no one else. Others are big and important to others, but not me!

For example, I find it ridiculous that the ruling party of the CSA for the 19th and into the 20th C. would call themselves "Whigs"! The folks who seceded were mainly Democrats IOTL. Doesn't it make more sense for them to keep that name than change it to the name of the opposing party before secession??

And the few OTL Whigs in the CSA; what, now, do they call themselves now that the Democrats have usurped their name??

I understand that this isn't a big deal to many of you, but it IS for ME!

I really started this thread to get HELP from you folks, as many of you seem to have knowledge about this period that complements mine.

Instead, I get attacked. It is very disheartening. :(

If you're not interested in improving the actual Turtledove timeline with actual Turtledove characters, why did you call your TL TL-191 improved and improving Turtledove? Had you simply gone with the non-Turtledovian name people would not criticize you over claiming one thing and doing the exact opposite.

The timeline itself is fascinating and well-done, however it's not even Turtledove in name only. Too, the criticism of your TL is quite mild by the standard of some on the site, so it's not like people are really attacking the TL itself.
 
If you're not interested in improving the actual Turtledove timeline with actual Turtledove characters, why did you call your TL TL-191 improved and improving Turtledove? Had you simply gone with the non-Turtledovian name people would not criticize you over claiming one thing and doing the exact opposite.

The timeline itself is fascinating and well-done, however it's not even Turtledove in name only. Too, the criticism of your TL is quite mild by the standard of some on the site, so it's not like people are really attacking the TL itself.
Indeed. It is pretty much a standard Southern Victory TL that uses the same PoD as TL-191.
 
Indeed. It is pretty much a standard Southern Victory TL that uses the same PoD as TL-191.

And as far as a Southern Victory TL, it's a good one. It's got the usual "CSA doesn't care about slavery" problem but that's one that's hardly limited to this one and would be criticized WRT any ATL that has this happen. And for that matter is one of the biggest problems with the original TL-191.
 
The CSA and a quick death of slavery

After reading many statements on this thread and others, I see that my ending slavery so quickly in the CSA, prompted by a "martyr" like R.E. Lee is rather ASB.

So, this has me thinking hard and trying to revise things.

As many TL's and individuals always make Lee a "great" president, why not just go the opposite route and make him mediocre. After all, he had no political ambitions and only agreed to serve as president as an extension of his "loyal service" to his country.

So, let's make him president in 1868, after winning the 1867 election, with a unanimous electoral college vote, and then give him a TOTALLY uninspiring and boring term until his death in Oct., 1870.

After that, Vice President John C. Breckinridge serves out the term until 1873.

The only thing to note under Pres. Lee is the development of Confederate political parties. The few pre-War Whigs in the CS finally form a new party confusingly called the American Party (not to be confused with the USA's American Party). This group is in favor of industrialization of the Confederacy and the use of government funds in doing this. It sees the clause in the CS Constitution which prohibits such spending as directly against their party's stance and its removal is a party platform.

The Democratic Party splits between a wing that is imperialistic and is composed of people who see both political and economic gain to be made in extending Confederate influence and power as far south in the Americas as possible. There are already many of these in Congress, which facilitated the admission of Nicaragua and Costa Rica as states. OTOH, this group is NOT enamoured of Latinos or blacks. It sees the CSA as a white man's country and wants that to be extended as well. This group begins to call itself "Nationalistic Democrats" and eventually becomes the Nationalist Party.

Finally, two very, very small groups of people in Virginia and Kentucky form anti-slavery organizations. Together, they form a political wing called the Liberty Party. They approach Lee for a statement in support of eventual emancipation. Lee respectfully declines to make such a statement. The group then nominate Cassius Clay of Kentucky and Patrick Cleburne of Arkansas as their candidates.

The Liberty Party is listed on ballots only in AR, GA, KY, LA, NC, TN, and VA. They received very few votes but deny Lee a totally unanimous popular vote (if such a thing was ever a possibility).

That's it for now!
 
US Presidential Elections (1864 - 1876)

1864:

Horatio Seymour &
George Pendleton
(Democrat) - 1,568,677 (161)*

Hannibal Hamlin &
William Seward
(Republican) - 1,008,984 (13)

Thomas Seymour &
Clement Vallandigham
(American) - 884,333 (8)

John Fremont &
Charles Sumner
(Freedom) - 385,804 (27)

Democrats carried Alleghany (OTL WV), CT, DE, IL, IN, MI, MO, NH, NJ, NY, OH, PA, & WI. Republicans carried IA, KS, & MN. Americans carried CA & OR. Freedom carried ME, MA, RI, & VT.

1868:

Horatio Seymour &
George Pendleton
(Democrat) - 1,488,443 (154)*

William Fessenden &
Schuyler Colfax
(Republican) - 1,416,717 (20)

Clement Vallandigham &
L. Milligan
(American) - 1,211,509 (11)

Charles Adams &
Banjamin Wade
(Freedom) - 523,698 (27)

Democrats carried Alleghany (OTL WV), DE, IL, IN, IA, MI, MO, NH, NJ, NY, OH, & PA. Republicans carried CT, KS, & NE. Americans carried CA, MN, & OR. Freedom carried ME, MA, RI, & VT.

1872:

Schuyler Colfax &
Andrew Curtain
(Republicans) - 1,582,060 (69)

George Pendleton &
Francis Blair, Jr.
(Conservatives) - 1,579,347 (77)

G. Brown &
S. Pomeroy
(Americans) - 1,517,760 (80)

Benjamin Wade &
John Creswell
(Freedom) - 549,046 (35)

Democrats changed name to Conservatives. Republicans carried CT, IA, MN, MO, & NY. Conservatives carried IL, KS, NE, NJ, & PA. Americans carried Alleghany (OTL WV), CA, DE, IN, MI, NV, OH, OR, & WI. Freedom carried ME, MA, NH, RI, & VT.

No majority in Electoral College. Senate elects Blair as vice president over Pomeroy, 29 to 19. On June 25, 1873, on 355th Ballot, House elects Colfax as persident over Brown and Pendleton, 13-10-0-with 1 "no vote".

1876:

George Custer &
Newton Booth
(American) - 1,944,575 (156)*

Samuel Tilden &
Winfield Hancock
(Conservative) - 1,856, 489 (73)

Schuyler Colfax &
Rutherford Hayes
(Republican) - 1,827,604 (18)

James Blaine &
Frederick Frelinghuysen
(Freedom) - 536, 707 (17)

Americans carried Alleghany (OTL WV), CA, CO, DE, IL, IN, IA, MI, NV, NJ, OH, OR, PA, & WI. Conservatives carried CT, MA, MO, & NY. Republicans carried KS, MN, NE, & RI. Freedom carried ME, NH, & VT.

That's it for tonight!
 
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