Timur Spares the Golden Horde

Elfwine

Anyone's guess. The Byzantines are slowly and painfully rebuilding their power in Greece, Serbia is in fragments, and Bulgaria isn't much better.
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
CandyDragon said:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=2086635#post2086635

Continued from the above link. What do y'all think could happen as a result? With, as someone in that thread posited, a shattered Ottomans early, what takes over in the Balkans?
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The Ottoman Empire was shattered. Its base of power was no longer in Anatolia by the time Timur struck. Its center of power was in the Balkans where there was an increasing proportion of Turkic and Muslim settlers constantly moving in either voluntarily or by the Ottoman implementation of Sürgün, usually a policy of deportation reserved for defeated enemies or troublesome minorities that were too risky to keep behind in Anatolia. Timur would not be transported into Europe. No one would think about bringing the second coming of Genghis Khan onto the Balkans and even if they did, he won't be attacking the Ottomans only but all the minor Christian statelets, including Byzantium.
 

Elfwine

Cuāuhtemōc said:
The Ottoman Empire was shattered. Its base of power was no longer in Anatolia by the time Timur struck. Its center of power was in the Balkans where there was an increasing proportion of Turkic and Muslim settlers constantly moving in either voluntarily or by the Ottoman implementation of Sürgün, usually a policy of deportation reserved for defeated enemies or troublesome minorities that were too risky to keep behind in Anatolia. Timur would not be transported into Europe. No one would think about bringing the second coming of Genghis Khan onto the Balkans and even if they did, he won't be attacking the Ottomans only but all the minor Christian statelets, including Byzantium.
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Why would Timur bother with the Byzantines (or others)? I mean, there's nothing worth looting there.

Then again, Timur. Timur had all of Genghis's brutal traits taken up to 11.
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Elfwine said:
Why would Timur bother with the Byzantines (or others)? I mean, there's nothing worth looting there.

Then again, Timur. Timur had all of Genghis's brutal traits taken up to 11.
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Why did Timur bother with lightweights like Armenia and Georgia? They were by no means rich nor powerful but he subjugated them, quite easily, and enslaved a large proportion of the population, leaving much of the Caucasus a depopulated wasteland. He certainly would have no reservations in capturing the heart of Eastern Christendom, if not for looting but for religious reasons. He was an extremely pious Muslim who I'm sure had known of the following hadith that another man would use as inspiration for his conquest:

"Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will her
leader be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!"
 

pike

Banned
When ever i think of the Ottoman empire i think of NAZIs with out the cool weapons.
Ottoman empire is a seriously screwed up peace of history. Best left ignored.
 

Elfwine

Cuāuhtemōc said:
Why did Timur bother with lightweights like Armenia and Georgia? They were by no means rich nor powerful but he subjugated them, quite easily, and enslaved a large proportion of the population, leaving much of the Caucasus a depopulated wasteland. He certainly would have no reservations in capturing the heart of Eastern Christendom, if not for looting but for religious reasons. He was an extremely pious Muslim who I'm sure had known of the following hadith that another man would use as inspiration for his conquest:

"Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will her
leader be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!"
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Point taken, although I'd say there's more to gain there than the remmants of the BE.

Timur's piety is something I hold in great skepticism, but I can see him invoking that line.
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Elfwine said:
Point taken, although I'd say there's more to gain there than the remmants of the BE.

Timur's piety is something I hold in great skepticism, but I can see him invoking that line.
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Ah fair enough. A lot of Muslim clerics seemed to give Timur a lot of praise for uniting much of the Islamic world for the first time in centuries.
 

Elfwine

Cuāuhtemōc said:
Ah fair enough. A lot of Muslim clerics seemed to give Timur a lot of praise for uniting much of the Islamic world for the first time in centuries.
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And yet he attacked I don't know how many Muslim powers to do so, and did things like this mosque: http://archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=7161.

Still, if he could make something out of it, I trust you in saying he would - that's a pretty juicy propaganda prize if he has the siege equipment (not likely to wait long enough for a blockade).
 
Daeres

Daeres

Ottomans are cuddly by historical standards. I'll leave it there to avoid a derail.

I agree that religion might be a reason Timur targets Byzantium, but there are very few rulers who will do something for religious reasons and religious reasons alone. Byzantium might have significance but it isn't attractive. If he did target Byzantium he would probably do so after all the more appealing states had been gobbled up first.
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Elfwine said:
And yet he attacked I don't know how many Muslim powers to do so, and did things like this mosque: http://archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=7161.

Still, if he could make something out of it, I trust you in saying he would - that's a pretty juicy propaganda prize if he has the siege equipment (not likely to wait long enough for a blockade).
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Fair enough. :p

He definitely would like the idea of being the one to conquer Constantinople and put an end to the Byzantines. Of course easier said then done if he's able to cross into the Balkans.
 

Elfwine

Cuāuhtemōc said:
Fair enough. :p

He definitely would like the idea of being the one to conquer Constantinople and put an end to the Byzantines. Of course easier said then done if he's able to cross into the Balkans.
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Yep.

The walls are still that good.

Is there anyone who would even consider it? Nevermind the whole "Genghis Khan Take 2", just...would anyone want an army like his to beat up a rival of those who have the shipping to contribute?

Venice decidedly doesn't, judging by OTL, and I can't see any reason that will change. Genoa isn't doing so well, so I'm not sure if its in a position to do this if Venice is opposed.
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Elfwine said:
Yep.

The walls are still that good.

Is there anyone who would even consider it? Nevermind the whole "Genghis Khan Take 2", just...would anyone want an army like his to beat up a rival of those who have the shipping to contribute?

Venice decidedly doesn't, judging by OTL, and I can't see any reason that will change. Genoa isn't doing so well, so I'm not sure if its in a position to do this if Venice is opposed.
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He tried cultivating a friendship with the Castilians and the French in order to have them assist in their venture to defeat the Ottoman Empire but as you know, he died before anything of the sort could happen. Genoa didn't want Tamerlane in Europe for the same reasons Venice didn't want him: Better the enemy that you know than the enemy that you do not know. But who's to say that they wouldn't be influenced by Timur bribing the Venetians or that of Genoa to ferry his army across the Hellespont. And the Byzantines of course wouldn't think of it unless the Emperor has a serious case of derp.

But if he does manage to get to Europe, one can say good-bye to the Ottomans and the Byzantines would probably lose control of everything save for the city of Constantinople itself.
 

MNP

Ignoring Tamerlane, could the Golden Horde rebuild itself and invade the Balkans, crushing Ottoman power there? That is, what if Tamerlane spares the Horde because Tokhtamysh goes WEST?
 

eliphas8

Honestly I dont think he would go west, he would probably look east since it had always been his dream to do what Genghis did to China again.
 

eliphas8

pike said:
When ever i think of the Ottoman empire i think of NAZIs with out the cool weapons.
Ottoman empire is a seriously screwed up peace of history. Best left ignored.
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This is a real gem. I'm tempted to not even argue and just find posts by Abdul and quote them.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
pike said:
When ever i think of the Ottoman empire i think of NAZIs with out the cool weapons.
Ottoman empire is a seriously screwed up peace of history. Best left ignored.
Click to expand...
Comparing ANY nation/empire to the Nazis needs a LOT of justification. You didn't even try. You just threw out line that was supposed to be clever. It wasn't.

What it was was off topic, disruptive, and a blatant attempt to derail the thread. That is, by definition, trolling.

Go do some weeding around your bridge. See you in a week.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Timur sparing the Golden Horde means that Muscovy could be in a worse shape than it already is. The Golden Horde would still fall apart, but the process would be slower since there is no catalyst for a rapid break up that may result in Muscovy becoming the dominant power.
 
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