Timeline Request

It's not very plausible that the Japanese would make such a stupid and suicidal move (the one they made against the US was bad enough), thus I'm afraid there aren't that many plausible TL's on the subject. :eek:
 
I mean instead of attacking pearl harbor
They joined barbarrosa instead

That would be even more implausible. If Japan aren't attacking Pearl Harbour, that would imply that they aren't attacking the Phillipines and thus not attacking South East Asia. Thus their main reason for going to war in the first place, i.e the resources they need to negate the western embargo is scrapped so as to help out Germany. It just doesn't make sense.
 
Does anyone know a good Japan invades Russia together with Germany during world war 2 time line?

Preferably non ASB

If it's a timeline you want, I recomend "Hokushin: The Second Russo-Japanese War" from the Rising Sun Victorious anthology. I'm not sure about it's plausibility but it makes for good reading.
 
That would be even more implausible. If Japan aren't attacking Pearl Harbour, that would imply that they aren't attacking the Phillipines and thus not attacking South East Asia. Thus their main reason for going to war in the first place, i.e the resources they need to negate the western embargo is scrapped so as to help out Germany. It just doesn't make sense.
While I actually agree, Japanese political decisions often didn't. If only because they were carried out by junior military officers with no input from Tokyo. Sigh.
 

Cook

Banned

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
They can attack the USSR. They can not successfully engage them. They will get their asses kicked, again, by the Red Army, and will have used up all their reserve oil in the process.

Now they have Ivan hugely pissed off, which will not work out well for them in the long run, AND they now lack the resources needed to strike to the South.

Japan has lost the war and will wind up under the Soviet thumb post war.

Shrewd.:rolleyes:
 
They can attack the USSR. They can not successfully engage them. They will get their asses kicked, again, by the Red Army, and will have used up all their reserve oil in the process.

Now they have Ivan hugely pissed off, which will not work out well for them in the long run, AND they now lack the resources needed to strike to the South.

Japan has lost the war and will wind up under the Soviet thumb post war.

Shrewd.:rolleyes:


However The Japanese will take away soviet troops from the front leaving more time and breathing space for Germany and in the initial stages of Barbarossa Stalin was shocked and gave no order giving Japan valuable time to gain land, also the bulk ofthe army was in Ukraine to protect against Germany, good luck marching 3000 miles leaving your oilfields open. Japans best bet would be aftr conquerignManchuria agree to leave according to U.S commands but set up a leader who favors Japan, and make sure Japan does not start a useless war with China if possible, the manpower would be needed and Logistics will be a nightmare, not easy walking thousands of miles through Siberia, will take time.
 
The Imperial Japanese Army was strongly in favour of the Northern Resources Option...



No, it wasn't.

When pressed about the northern option, the IJA presented the government with a list of prerequisites for any attack on the USSR.
Among other those prerequisites were a 3:1 force ratio in Japan's favor, the German capture of Moscow, and a Soviet Civil War/secession of Siberia.

When you examine the list, especially the 3:1 requirement which required amounts of military equipment like artillery pieces, tanks, and aircraft Japan could not manufacture, you realize that the IJA - including the fire-eaters in the Kwantung Army who had literally dragged Japan into war with China - were telling their government in an indirect manner that the Army could not attack the USSR and prevail.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
However The Japanese will take away soviet troops from the front leaving more time and breathing space for Germany and in the initial stages of Barbarossa Stalin was shocked and gave no order giving Japan valuable time to gain land, also the bulk ofthe army was in Ukraine to protect against Germany, good luck marching 3000 miles leaving your oilfields open. Japans best bet would be aftr conquerignManchuria agree to leave according to U.S commands but set up a leader who favors Japan, and make sure Japan does not start a useless war with China if possible, the manpower would be needed and Logistics will be a nightmare, not easy walking thousands of miles through Siberia, will take time.


Actually it won't change a damned thing. The Far East Front was always kept at full strength, despite all the Intel that Stalin had regarding Japan's intentions. The "Siberians" of lore were actually Central Asians for the most part who picked up new equipment as they crossed into the European Russia.

The Japanese will hit the same sort of strength they hit in 1939 and they will have the same sort of success.
 
No, it wasn't.

When pressed about the northern option, the IJA presented the government with a list of prerequisites for any attack on the USSR.[/FONT][/COLOR] Among other those prerequisites were a 3:1 force ratio in Japan's favor, the German capture of Moscow, and a Soviet Civil War/secession of Siberia.

When you examine the list, especially the 3:1 requirement which required amounts of military equipment like artillery pieces, tanks, and aircraft Japan could not manufacture, you realize that the IJA - including the fire-eaters in the Kwantung Army who had literally dragged Japan into war with China - were telling their government in an indirect manner that the Army could not attack the USSR and prevail.




Why should it.... Japan will act as cannon fodder whe Germany is free to real havoc in the west.
 
Actually it won't change a damned thing. The Far East Front was always kept at full strength, despite all the Intel that Stalin had regarding Japan's intentions. The "Siberians" of lore were actually Central Asians for the most part who picked up new equipment as they crossed into the European Russia.

The Japanese will hit the same sort of strength they hit in 1939 and they will have the same sort of success.

To look at it those way, Stalin had enough forces in Siberia to liberate Manchuria and at a push. Korea and the rest of Chona.

Why should it.... Japan will act as cannon fodder whe Germany is free to real havoc in the west.

The Japanese, although their strategy often disagreed, were not morons. No high command is going to agree to strategy of helping your "ally" by sacrificing yourself.
 
To look at it those way, Stalin had enough forces in Siberia to liberate Manchuria and at a push. Korea and the rest of Chona.



The Japanese, although their strategy often disagreed, were not morons. No high command is going to agree to strategy of helping your "ally" by sacrificing yourself.



So japanese military leaders blinder like they did pearl harbour and find out when war started what would happen, and forget soviet invasion the Japanes fleet is huge easily crushes the soviet navy, Ilthe odds of launching a succesful sea invasion of Japan without overwelhmin superiority in Navy and Army are like unprepared sea lion, and with U.s not in war stalemate. U.S in war major alscrewage for japan.
 
As has been made perfectly clear, the Soviets had a full-strength front in the Far East. The Japanese cannot take Vladivostok (which was stronger than Sevastopol', according to Soviet planners, and the Germans had fun taking Sevastopol'); they'll be lucky if the Russians don't move into Manchuria, actually.

And now what? Russia has lost the "revolving door" (newly raised formations were sent to the Far East, keeping it at full strength, while somewhat trained units went west, rinse and repeat) and about half of lend-lease (but at this point LL was mostly food), so they're in a somewhat worse position. This doesn't mean Germany can beat them, just more pain all round.

But Japan is rapidly running out of oil, so eventually the Soviets can just gobble up Korea and forget about that front. Doesn't solve the LL problem, but it does mean pretty well the entire Far East front can go west.

And meanwhile, Malaya hasn't been attacked. Britain declared war on Finland, so I have no doubt we'll declare war on Japan as soon as wel feel ready. How long before Commonwealth forces clear Indochina, opening another supply route to China?

Japan's for it in time for Pacific LL to start up and enable some kind of *Ten Blows. The rend result: some major butterflies for Japan's own fate; Soviets have a bit less of Europe and more of Asia. It's a fairly interesting scenario, but as has been pointed out not even the Japanese were stupid enough to try it.
 
So japanese military leaders blinder like they did pearl harbour and find out when war started what would happen, and forget soviet invasion the Japanes fleet is huge easily crushes the soviet navy, Ilthe odds of launching a succesful sea invasion of Japan without overwelhmin superiority in Navy and Army are like unprepared sea lion, and with U.s not in war stalemate. U.S in war major alscrewage for japan.

There's a difference, Japan had a reason to go war with America, they have no reason to attack the Soviets aside from ideology.
 
As has been made perfectly clear, the Soviets had a full-strength front in the Far East. The Japanese cannot take Vladivostok (which was stronger than Sevastopol', according to Soviet planners, and the Germans had fun taking Sevastopol'); they'll be lucky if the Russians don't move into Manchuria, actually.

And now what? Russia has lost the "revolving door" (newly raised formations were sent to the Far East, keeping it at full strength, while somewhat trained units went west, rinse and repeat) and about half of lend-lease (but at this point LL was mostly food), so they're in a somewhat worse position. This doesn't mean Germany can beat them, just more pain all round.

But Japan is rapidly running out of oil, so eventually the Soviets can just gobble up Korea and forget about that front. Doesn't solve the LL problem, but it does mean pretty well the entire Far East front can go west.


I stand corrected good chap, Japanese cannot invade Russia, complete failure.

And meanwhile, Malaya hasn't been attacked. Britain declared war on Finland, so I have no doubt we'll declare war on Japan as soon as wel feel ready. How long before Commonwealth forces clear Indochina, opening another supply
route to China?

Japan's for it in time for Pacific LL to start up and enable some kind of *Ten Blows. The rend result: some major butterflies for Japan's own fate; Soviets have a bit less of Europe and more of Asia. It's a fairly interesting scenario, but as has been pointed out not even the Japanese were stupid enough to try it.



I stand corrected good chap.... Well in such case Japan is screwed up badly, it's best option would be to create A Manchuria which is free but has a Japanese supporter who gives valuable resources and stick to remain neutral and do research on atomic bomb then death Ray, in fact Japanese scientists
could have completed the atom bomb as early as the U.S but didn't because they focused on the death Ray, have them be smart, Europe and soviet union lay in ruins after war, all imperial powers greatly weakeaned japan still strong Japan has nukes, Japan wreaks havoc and while this is going on they build up their navy while remaining completly neutral backstabbing Germany and no attack on U.S althoguh it doesn't follow this TL it is Japans best bet.
 
Top