Timeline idea: the Netherlands in WWI and a closer Benelux

[Alex Richards]

True... I admit that my idea wasn't that clever.
But what if their navy is stronger than Britain's, but the land armies are each other's equals?

I think Britain would have pushed for a declaration of war on Germany long before it reached that point.

Heck, the entire Dreadnaut race was due to trying to prevent this.

Also, I think British naval production was something like 3 times German production, so that's really unlikely anyway.

 

[HJ Tulp]

How realistic is this?

Actually I think it's pretty realistic especially as something along these lines happened on a European scale after WWII.

Besides that:
Why would Germany realistically attack the Netherlands?

As has been mentioned before a invasion through Limburg was planned for logistical reasons. What you need is for the German General Staff to determine that they need that logistical space to reach Paris and reaching Paris would mean the War in the West is over anyway.

How effective would Dutch resistance be against the German armies?

In Limburg the Dutch forces would probably be destroyed or pushed aside in short order.

Would the Dutch waterline actually hold?

I think it would. The Germans wouldn't want to spare forces to try and take it in a coup de main and it's defenses would be pretty formidable once the fortress troops are mobilized and in position and with the Field Army as reserve within the Waterline. I can see the Germans trying in 1915 and maybe 1917 again.

Would Germany still lose?

Someone might be able to make them win through butterflies but he would have to try really hard. The Germans would still fall short of reaching Paris (and even if they reach it they will not take it) in 1914 and will expend forces assaulting and covering the Waterline. The blockade will hurt even more without the trickle of supplies comming through the Netherlands.

How would a peace look after the war?

Difficult to say. IIRC the border from Gelderland up to the Waddenzee hasn't changed in hunderds of years so except for some border corrections I can't think of anything. Maybe some Pacific islands or a colonial swap. The Dutch were looking for battleships though. They might want one or two and modernise the crap out of it.

I also wonder about Luxembourg. The Personal Union between the Netherlands and Luxembourg had just been broken in 1890 and the Grand-Duchess later had do abdicate because she had acted pretty pro-German during the war. The Luxembourger throne might end if in Belgian or Dutch hands.

Would WWII (or some variant) still happen?

I'm inclined to say yes though it will probably be a bit different.

What would be the effect of a Benelux alliance during WWII?

I expect the Benelux alliance to keep a policy of armed neutrality. They will have to find a way to form a coherent defensive strategy towards Germany though. You can expect the Dutch (hindered by public opion outside the west though) to want to base their defense once again on the Waterline but that would make a united BENELUX defense impossible. If they do manage to form a united front the effects will be interesting. The Benelux would be much much harder to conquer for the Germans also because atleast the Dutch budget will be higher then it was OTL. I'm not sure how the Germans will try to crack that nut.

What do you think about this idea?

Very interesting!

Would I actualy write and finish this timeline if I start it?

Let's hope so

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

I have just found a new sig.

You made it your signature!
(due to my silliness )

 

[Geordie]

You made it your signature!
(due to my silliness )

Sorry. I've said enough silly things on this site to know it can be a bit embarrassing, but the thought of Germany invading St. Maarten and Surinam in order to attack France is rather too good to forget.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Sorry. I've said enough silly things on this site to know it can be a bit embarrassing, but the thought of Germany invading St. Maarten and Surinam in order to attack France is rather too good to forget.

No problem at all... It's cool!
It'd be even better if your signature would be:

Perhaps Germany would attack France through the Netherlands instead of through Belgium.

Uh... through the Netherlands instead of through Belgium? You do realise that Netherlands is not a neighbor of France?

Oh God... How stupid can I be?!

Actualy the Netherlands is a neighbour of France. In the Carribean they share a border on the island St Maarten/st Martin. Besides that Surnam borders French Guyana. Sure, it is not the easiest way for the Germans to invade France through the carribean, but still.

Unfortunately, that'd be too much characters, I'm afraid...

 

[Parma]

How effective would Dutch resistance be against the German armies?

Suprisingly effective I think, after the first shock. The army is upto date for 1914 standards. The German troops are conscripts as the Dutch army, and most likely ''ersatz'' troops, since the main trust and first class troops, of the German armies is focussed South to encounter French and British troops.


Would the Dutch waterline actually hold?
You bet it will, a make shift water line at the river Ijzer stoped, the German advance.
But why would the Dutch troops retreat behind this line. There is a large posibility that the German troops are stoped (or does not advance immidiatly) at the rivers Waal and Ijssel. If it retreats behind the Waterline most likely the city of Utrecht will be flattend by artilery, which could Gen. Snijder decide to try to stop the Germans at the mentioned rivers.

Would Germany still lose?

The Battle in the Low countries is a side show, which will use resources which could be used elswere.
Let asume in 1917 the Germans are exhausted as thing go more or less as we know it.

How would a peace look after the war?

In OTL the Dutch, even neutral, made a good act on the Versaille conferences. It encountered with succes Belgian teritorial demands. The Dutch Cabinet of that time had some very competent diplomats whith close relations in the UK.
Deptnt what the Dutch demand, I think the usual, war compensation and teritory. On the otherhand, too much war compensation would ruin trade with Germany, which is bad for buisines in peace time.
Speculative teritorial gains are a kind of BakkerShut plan whitout the population removing. (Ost Frisland, Eemsland, Bentheim, Cleve, Julich)


Would WWII (or some variant) still happen?

Uncertian even in OTL.
Let asume Germany will slide in to a totalitarian state which gears up for war in the thirties.

What would be the effect of a Benelux alliance during WWII?

Since there is now a mutial history, a mutual memory of war horrors, the two countires will have much more mutual understanding. This could result very well in a close defensive cooperation. When the Belgians find out the French war plans for a future war, that their country will be the battle ground to defend France. This will only enlarge the cooperation.
The Neterlands, faced with the reality that Neutrality need to be defended, will not experinece such a strong utopic pacificm as it had in OTL. Further the funding of the army and navy would be much better as in OTL, at least the defensive forces wil not be neglected as in OTL. Resulting in an army up to date to 1940 standards , but agian too small to with stand the invaders.
If the Germans invade the Low Counties as OTL, then they are faces with several defensive lines, running North-South, starting at he river Meuse, whitout a gap at the Belgian Dutch border.
Who know the air force of Belgium and the Netherlands is equiped with Reinard R36 as fighters and Fokker G1 as tactical close support bombers.

Result will be probably more destoryed cities

What do you think about this idea?

Like it

Would I actualy write and finish this timeline if I start it?[/QUOTE]

yes please

 

[Glenn239]

Why would Germany realistically attack the Netherlands?

Dunno – Moltke loses a bet maybe?

What would be the effect of Germany attacking France through the Netherlands?

Nothing bad for France, that’s for sure.

How effective would Dutch resistance be against the German armies?

Probably about as effective as the Belgian.

Would the Dutch waterline actually hold?

No.

Would Germany still lose?

Not relevant to the question of an invasion of The Netherlands in 1914. About all that can be said is that Germany's probably in slightly worse shape.

How would a peace look after the war?

One more ‘guilty’ clause, one more reparations clause, one less place for the Kaiser to run to after abdicating.

Would WWII (or some variant) still happen?

Sure, why not.

What would be the effect of a Benelux alliance during WWII?

A speed bump on the German army’s march to Paris?

What do you think about this idea?

Meh.

Would I actualy write and finish this timeline if I start it?

Why not flip to a timeline where Jacky Fisher gets his way and does a Baltic invasion, and Germany invades Denmark in response?

 

[merlin]

Would WWII (or some variant) still happen?

Uncertian even in OTL.
Let asume Germany will slide in to a totalitarian state which gears up for war in the thirties.

What would be the effect of a Benelux alliance during WWII?

Since there is now a mutial history, a mutual memory of war horrors, the two countires will have much more mutual understanding. This could result very well in a close defensive cooperation. When the Belgians find out the French war plans for a future war, that their country will be the battle ground to defend France. This will only enlarge the cooperation.
The Neterlands, faced with the reality that Neutrality need to be defended, will not experinece such a strong utopic pacificm as it had in OTL. Further the funding of the army and navy would be much better as in OTL, at least the defensive forces wil not be neglected as in OTL. Resulting in an army up to date to 1940 standards , but agian too small to with stand the invaders.
If the Germans invade the Low Counties as OTL, then they are faces with several defensive lines, running North-South, starting at he river Meuse, whitout a gap at the Belgian Dutch border.
Who know the air force of Belgium and the Netherlands is equiped with Reinard R36 as fighters and Fokker G1 as tactical close support bombers.

Result will be probably more destoryed cities
What do you think about this idea?
Like it
Would I actualy write and finish this timeline if I start it?

yes please[/QUOTE]

It's also possible that in a Benelux ATL the Ardennes would be better defended e.g. the Lux part wouldn't just have customs police!
Though on the other hand in OTL both countries had right-wing factions could these be stronger or weaker in the Benelux!?

 

[Xgentis]

How effective would Dutch resistance be against the German armies?

Suprisingly effective I think, after the first shock. The army is upto date for 1914 standards. The German troops are conscripts as the Dutch army, and most likely ''ersatz'' troops, since the main trust and first class troops, of the German armies is focussed South to encounter French and British troops.


Would the Dutch waterline actually hold?
You bet it will, a make shift water line at the river Ijzer stoped, the German advance.
But why would the Dutch troops retreat behind this line. There is a large posibility that the German troops are stoped (or does not advance immidiatly) at the rivers Waal and Ijssel. If it retreats behind the Waterline most likely the city of Utrecht will be flattend by artilery, which could Gen. Snijder decide to try to stop the Germans at the mentioned rivers.

Would Germany still lose?

The Battle in the Low countries is a side show, which will use resources which could be used elswere.
Let asume in 1917 the Germans are exhausted as thing go more or less as we know it.

How would a peace look after the war?

In OTL the Dutch, even neutral, made a good act on the Versaille conferences. It encountered with succes Belgian teritorial demands. The Dutch Cabinet of that time had some very competent diplomats whith close relations in the UK.
Deptnt what the Dutch demand, I think the usual, war compensation and teritory. On the otherhand, too much war compensation would ruin trade with Germany, which is bad for buisines in peace time.
Speculative teritorial gains are a kind of BakkerShut plan whitout the population removing. (Ost Frisland, Eemsland, Bentheim, Cleve, Julich)


Would WWII (or some variant) still happen?

Uncertian even in OTL.
Let asume Germany will slide in to a totalitarian state which gears up for war in the thirties.

What would be the effect of a Benelux alliance during WWII?

Since there is now a mutial history, a mutual memory of war horrors, the two countires will have much more mutual understanding. This could result very well in a close defensive cooperation. When the Belgians find out the French war plans for a future war, that their country will be the battle ground to defend France. This will only enlarge the cooperation.
The Neterlands, faced with the reality that Neutrality need to be defended, will not experinece such a strong utopic pacificm as it had in OTL. Further the funding of the army and navy would be much better as in OTL, at least the defensive forces wil not be neglected as in OTL. Resulting in an army up to date to 1940 standards , but agian too small to with stand the invaders.
If the Germans invade the Low Counties as OTL, then they are faces with several defensive lines, running North-South, starting at he river Meuse, whitout a gap at the Belgian Dutch border.
Who know the air force of Belgium and the Netherlands is equiped with Reinard R36 as fighters and Fokker G1 as tactical close support bombers.

Result will be probably more destoryed cities

What do you think about this idea?

Like it

Would I actualy write and finish this timeline if I start it?

Why not? It is the era of Albert I of Belgium if he can avoid his freak climbing accident he would maybe not surender like Leopold III did.