Timeline:240 Ming-Mexica-Peru: Pueblo-Apache Confederation

Say that the Ming did not halt their maritime activity. Lets say they continued and eventually through explorations following Zheng He's example found their way across the pacific islands and into Mesoamerica.

Their contact with the Mexica (Aztecs) reforms the Triple Alliance and fast paced expands their territory to present day Rio Grande and as far as slightly over the Arizonia-New Mexico-Texas borders OTL. The affects on the Mexica by the Ming I have explained in another thread, innoculation, reformation of political system, iron, horses, Dragon Warriors, use of biological warfare, and so on.

I want to concentrate on the possible proliferation of gunpowder, horses, iron, canals, and such, from Mexico, but not by the Spanish, into North America from the Southwest, outward. This is a developing timeline I call, Timeline 240- Ming-Mexica-Peru.
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Now by 1300ad the Anzani people had pretty much all moved south into modern day Pueblo lands, of the pueblo peoples (Hopi, Acoma, Zuni, etc.). The Rio Grande basin and Colorado River Basin, in OTL New Mexico and Arizona. Without beasts of burden their was trade as far south as Tenochititlan in a trade network that covered most of the south-west from lower California to Texas to Tenochtitlan.

Now the Mexica were a conquering sorts, so armed with Ming aid, cross bow, gun, iron, horses, and disease carrying traders and slaves, they expanded as far as the Rio Grande, and maybe above the lower Arizona-New Mexico-Texas borders.

Now even before the Mexica would get this far the pueblo peoples would hear of these things brought by the Ming via the trade network, and send salt and other goods to the south to trade for these things, or they were brought north. Though a new tactic of the Mexica was to use traders to spread smallpox amongst outsiders, this was so that this would weaken the surrounding indian tribes and a promise of a cure would be used to bargin the indian tribes's to assimilate into the Mexica Empire. Though, due to the distance of the Pueblo peoples, the Mexica traders that went north with plagued slaves and cattles, they came out north to Pueblo clean, having spread it across most of OTL Mexico.

Now even without the new things, the pueblo people were ubran centred, with high hard to penetrate mesa-towns.

Around 1500 and abit before, the pueblo peoples areas would be visited by two groups of peoples. The first group would be: The Apache. The Apache camps would camp outside of the mesas, alot of the time their would be peace, friednly contact with trade, but a few times of violent flares as in OTL.

But then the armies of the Mexica would emerge from the south establishing for the most part control over northern Mexico (leaving a large swath of a core land to the nomadic tribes so that they had a people they could Flower War for sacrifices ((having banned unwilling sacrifice of their conquered people with the Mind reforms.)) when the Tlaxcala collapsed). Expeditions northward were mostly fueled by the search for Atzlan, the Mexica mythical birthplace.

For the most part each Mesa was it's own independent group, yet with the military tech small 'kingdoms' were established by war thirsty Pueblo or Apache, most making up 2-4 mesas. With horses and cattle firmly introduced to the Apache, Apache bands became semi-nomadic, most employed by the Pueblo mesas to raid another mesa or defend them. Marriage between the groups, and inter-cultural relations were established, and a bond between the two peoples slowly grew stronger.

The arrival of the well known conquerors the Mexica would of course cause alarm in the Pueblo and Apache communities. They did have many new military weapons, even a few cannon, but they could not match the military might of the Mexica, well trained and bloodthirsty. A meeting was held a few months before the arrival of the Mexica was predicted (they would march up the Rio Grande), the leaders of all the Pueblo and Apache communities attended.

In the it was discussed what should be done. Each leader had a different thought, the leaders were not thinking as one, only for their own individual communities. Except for Goyathlay, "He Who Yawns" of a Apache band of the later day Navajo, whoa t the moment were settled outside of Acoma,e he thought that they should all fight, but as one. United under a everlasting confederation, should they win or lose. Many of the cheifs were eager to not lose their culture to the Mexica, but they did not wish to lose their independance either. Eventually, Goyathlay prevailed, convincing most of the assembled to a confederation that ever man, Pueblo or Apache would be equal, and the powers of each Mesa and community would be respected. Though, knowing that the communities that did not agree could fracture the new alliance, and that ever warrior was needed, Goyathlay quickly in a month long campaign toppled the leaders of the non joining Mesas and communities, which succeeded without causing many deaths to either side.

So united under the Pueblo-Apache Confederation, the confederate forced met the forces of the Mexica at Acoma. In a three day battle, the confederate forces managed to out pace and lure the vanguard forces of the Mexica army into ambushes and traps at first, slowly pitching down on the third day that left both sides bloody. This battle was known as The Battle of Sky City.

Though the Mexica still had more men and might, they could have conquered then and their, were it not for a major invasion amongst the nomads of northern Mexico the Mexica had left mostly unharmed. As well as the Mexica general seeing this far north as a worthless place. So the Mexica army retreated, and the Pueblo-Apache Confederation was saved.

With the threat of the Mexica gone, some of the communities wished to go their own way again, but Golathay had married into the Pueblo people, as well as making many allies amongst Apache and Pueblo, and seeing that the Mexica might come back. Using his power as leader and his allies, he forced the Pueblo-Apache Confederation together, silencing those who wished to leave. Eventually, at a meeting at Acoma the communes formed a law system, that would treat every member of the Confederation fairly and was the second "Democracy" after the Iroquois League.....

Meanwhile, just abit to the east in Texas, the Commanche had quickly taken to the horse, and their grazing lands were spreading north into the Great Plains.......

Next Thread Timeline:240 Ming-Mexica-Peru: The Commanche and The Mississippians.
 
Remind me why China would want to make an alliance with foreign barbaric lands that still practice human sacrafice, when there are so many other, closer opportunities for riches across the coast of Asia/Africa? And why it would be an alliance/confederation, which implies being amoung equals, rather than trying to subjugate/vassalize like they did their neighbors?
 
I wouldn't agree with you on the Aztecs going that far north. The terrain is rugged, and there wouldn't be that much tribute, so I don't see the reason for going through all those chichimeca.
 
I wouldn't agree with you on the Aztecs going that far north. The terrain is rugged, and there wouldn't be that much tribute, so I don't see the reason for going through all those chichimeca.

Well, how about sticking to the coasts? That big "core" of Chicmecha land, for sacrifices.

Well ever heard of Chinese Medicines?
Chinese were the first to practice innoculation for smallpox early on.

As for Chinese Alliances, The Trade was coming from the east, they went as far as Hawaii and then over to North-South America. The answer to your question is simple:Money. Gold, Silver, in OTL all that came from the Spanish to the Ming which did ruin the Ming economy later on, but the leader of the fleet that discovered the Americas was a merchant, the Zheng he expeditions were to establish tributary and trade relations. Which the Inca and Mexica did become, though due to distance they have wide independence, yet are constricted in areas such as boat building, and manufacturing of certain weapons and other goods.
Mexica to the south, growing Commanche power to the east, Ming poking around the California coast. Their surrounded, better to fight amongst friends then rebellious subjects.
 
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Philip

Donor
Well ever heard of Chinese Medicines?
Chinese were the first to practice innoculation for smallpox early on.

That doesn't mean they won't bring it with them. Even those who have been vaccinated can still carry the virus. But lets not forget that smallpox was still present in China in the 20th Century. I wonder how they are going to prevent the spread of smallpox to the Americas when they can't eliminate it at home.

Even if smallpox is completely eliminated, there is still measles, typhus, influenza, plague....

If you think Chinese medicine of the 15th and 16th Centuries is going to prevent the spread on Old World diseases, then I submit that you are vastly overestimating the effectiveness of Chinese medicine.

As for Chinese Alliances, The Trade was coming from the east, they went as far as Hawaii and then over to North-South America.

The prevailing currents are more likely to take them to the west coast of OTL US. San Fransisco Bay or Puget Sound are the likely landing places. Hawaii would be found on the trip home.
 
That doesn't mean they won't bring it with them. Even those who have been vaccinated can still carry the virus. But lets not forget that smallpox was still present in China in the 20th Century. I wonder how they are going to prevent the spread of smallpox to the Americas when they can't eliminate it at home.

Even if smallpox is completely eliminated, there is still measles, typhus, influenza, plague....

If you think Chinese medicine of the 15th and 16th Centuries is going to prevent the spread on Old World diseases, then I submit that you are vastly overestimating the effectiveness of Chinese medicine.



The prevailing currents are more likely to take them to the west coast of OTL US. San Fransisco Bay or Puget Sound are the likely landing places. Hawaii would be found on the trip home.


Chinese sails can sail into the wind. Followed the way to Hawaii via Polyensian trade routes as well as later on to South America (if you believe in the Chickens came to South America via SOuth Pacific theory).

Well not all of them, but still caught early and with quarantine procedures it is containable. Though, the Mexica would use infected vassal tribes (Like the Otomi) to spread the disease, Biological Warfare. Use of it previously mentioned.
 
but the leader of the fleet that discovered the Americas was a merchant, the Zheng he expeditions were to establish tributary and trade relations.

Exactly the same as Columbus. Pity others who came later had other plans in mind. :rolleyes:
 
Exactly the same as Columbus. Pity others who came later had other plans in mind. :rolleyes:

Ah but Columbus came with dreams of the Indies and Gold in mind.
He Jin (The Merchant) came in mind of trade profits and discovering a new island chain, not the whole Americas!
 

Hendryk

Banned
Say that the Ming did not halt their maritime activity. Lets say they continued and eventually through explorations following Zheng He's example found their way across the pacific islands and into Mesoamerica.
For the sake of reference, here's a link to an old TL of mine with a self-explanatory title: The Chinese discover America in 1435. Feel free to take from it any idea you find interesting.
 
The Aztecs didn't exist as a state until the late 1420s wasn't a state and was a tributary of Atzaptzalco. Since you didn't specify when the Chinese arrived, it would be likely that the Aztecs might arise like in OTL. After that with the Chinese trading with the Pacific coast states it would seem unlikely they would have the same preeminence. The Tarascan state was pretty strong at that point so it might be a better candidate, but at the same time there were a lot of other states on the coast.

Also I think the Empire would probably cover much of the coast like you said, maybe up to OTL Sonora and then south to the Guatemala with the Yucatan being free, due to the difficulty of the terrain and the mass of states there. The highlands would probably be conquered farther south along with the pacific coast.
 
Also I think the Empire would probably cover much of the coast like you said, maybe up to OTL Sonora and then south to the Guatemala with the Yucatan being free, due to the difficulty of the terrain and the mass of states there. The highlands would probably be conquered farther south along with the pacific coast.[/SIZE]

Man, that'd be weird.

Aztec warlords who practice calligraphy, whiel the Spanish covet their riches...
 
The Aztecs didn't exist as a state until the late 1420s wasn't a state and was a tributary of Atzaptzalco. Since you didn't specify when the Chinese arrived, it would be likely that the Aztecs might arise like in OTL. After that with the Chinese trading with the Pacific coast states it would seem unlikely they would have the same preeminence. The Tarascan state was pretty strong at that point so it might be a better candidate, but at the same time there were a lot of other states on the coast.

Also I think the Empire would probably cover much of the coast like you said, maybe up to OTL Sonora and then south to the Guatemala with the Yucatan being free, due to the difficulty of the terrain and the mass of states there. The highlands would probably be conquered farther south along with the pacific coast.

Ayes thats what I intended, around 1440.

Aye, the Maya region would be in a sort of "alliance" or city-states.

The turning point of it in Mesoamerica is at The Battle of The Place of Big Reeds (Acapulco), where the Chinese ships landed and "Invited" a few of the locals to learn the language. Of course word of this would reach back to the Aztec and Tarascan capitals (both having had traders ((which they did use as spies OTL)) in the village)), two large armies meet at Acapulco they fight, Tarascans acidentaly attack the Chinese, next thing you know Tarascans are pretty much mopped the floor (The Chinese Expedition fleets did have large military attachments onboard to convince the locals to see the Ming way). He Jing and Moctezuma (The First) meet up, begin to negotiate, meanwhile they both use their military might to crush and loot the Tarascans (The Tarascan Empire at the time was smaller not yet expanded to meet up with Aztec borders or with their known defensive forts, not to mention Ming cannon and repeating big crossbows).
 
Ayes thats what I intended, around 1440.

Aye, the Maya region would be in a sort of "alliance" or city-states.

The turning point of it in Mesoamerica is at The Battle of The Place of Big Reeds (Acapulco), where the Chinese ships landed and "Invited" a few of the locals to learn the language. Of course word of this would reach back to the Aztec and Tarascan capitals (both having had traders ((which they did use as spies OTL)) in the village)), two large armies meet at Acapulco they fight, Tarascans acidentaly attack the Chinese, next thing you know Tarascans are pretty much mopped the floor (The Chinese Expedition fleets did have large military attachments onboard to convince the locals to see the Ming way). He Jing and Moctezuma (The First) meet up, begin to negotiate, meanwhile they both use their military might to crush and loot the Tarascans (The Tarascan Empire at the time was smaller not yet expanded to meet up with Aztec borders or with their known defensive forts, not to mention Ming cannon and repeating big crossbows).

I'm going to go ahead and copy my post from the other Ming America thread (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=71395&page=4) since I think this one is more directly relevant to the topic.

Let's handwave away all the hairs that have been split earlier. The Zheng He expedition or some analogue in the early 15th Century surveys the West Coast of the North American continent, following the circular currents described upthread. We'll assume they plant some outpost on San Francisco bay, and the description of the California coast (maybe the expedition finds gold or something) prompts the emperor or some senior mandarin to launch a major expedition to the Americas. I don't know that much about Ming China, but from Gavin Menzies' and Louise Levathes' books on Zheng He's fleet, I understand they planted small colonies in places they thought were of economic interest.

The Great Expedition explores Puget Sound and the Alaska coast, extensively surveys California's Central Valley, and also surveys down the California coastline. Most of Alta and Baja California's coastline south of Monterey Bay is too wild and desolate to be of much interest (though Catalina Island and San Diego bay are interesting base locations), but the Chinese ships continue exploring the coast, finding no native cultures of interest until Michocoan. If Chinese explorers pressed inward from the coast, they would find the territory of the Tarascan empire, the largest and most credible rival of the Mexica. A Chinese trading post on the coast of Michocoan and Chinese links with the Tarascans would radically change the balance of power in Mesoamerica. Another possibility is contact with the Mixtec and Zapotec states farther south on the coasts of Oaxaca.
Can we continue the discussion taking this or something like it for granted? We have a major Chinese settlement in the lower Sacramento Valley, probably at least 2000-5000 people mining gold and farming. We may see a series of Chinese supply posts down the Pacific coast from Vancouver Island to Oaxaca to facilitate trading, as Chinese explorers and traders penetrate into Mesoamerica. Even if events follow OTL and the Chinese cut off overseas exploration, it's doubtful they would completely abandon this colony, especially if it continues to be profitable. It's very conceivable that by 1500 we could have a major silver mining operation underway in Peru.
Do we even have a recognizable Europe in 1600 without Peruvian silver? The whole growth of commerce in Europe which stimulated the Enlightenment was built on Spanish silver. Without a good currency, Europe's economy will be retarded, and it follows that Europe's scientific and cultural development, not to mention further colonial efforts, are going to be much less than OTL.
Certainly Spanish ships will reach the Indes, Portugues ships Brazil, and English Newfoundland, but beyond limited extraction efforts there, they will probably not settle America as enthusiastically. Mexico will be a hornet's nest for Europeans regardless of the course of events, and the Pacific will certainly be denied with only minimal Chinese effort. I imagine a Chinese allied Tarascan empire should be able to roll up a significant part of Mesoamerica rather quickly, once the troublesome Mexica are dealt with.
I imagine that even if the Chinese completely abandon all overseas colonies, Europeans will not be able to conquer Mexico, and parts of the Pacific coast will be significantly Chinese for centuries to come.
Given all this *whew*, where is Europe left? How much (if at all) is China affected? The question is about Europe, not China or America.

Thoughts?

--Malinche
 
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