Timeline 191 - The Third Mexican Republic & the Repatriation of Sonora and Chihuahua

Below is a partial episode from the Educational Broadcast Corporation television documentary series titled, A World on Fire, which originally aired in the spring of 1987. The below episode is narrated by Patrick Stewart, and the title of the episode is: The Third Mexican Republic and the Repatriation of Sonora and Chihuahua.

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Mexico City, January 17, 1945. The Second Great War has been over for approximately six months, and the Mexican Republican movement, which the United States has supported for so many years, has just seized power from the last of the Habsburg-Lorraine emperors to rule over Mexico.


(Black and white film footage of Emperor Francisco José II, and his mistress, hanging upside down from a balcony on an upper floor of the Imperial Palace in Mexico City. The faces of both the emperor and his mistress appear badly broken and disfigured; their arms hang loosely over their heads towards the ground. The crowd in the public square below cheers as the ropes are cut, and both bodies fall into the square.)


The Second Mexican Empire finally comes to an end after roughly eighty-two years of existence, and from its ashes arises the Third Republic of Mexico.


(Black and white film footage of soldiers from the Republican movement going through the extremely ornate rooms of the Imperial Palace looking for whatever they may find.)


(Black and white film footage of a jubilant crowd gathered in Mexico City's main square to celebrate the overthrowing of the emperor. A few people are dancing to live music as others in the crowd hold up signs reading -Viva La Revolución! - Paper streamers and confetti fill the air and speckle the crowd. A young woman in her early twenties runs up to the camera and displays the front page of a newspaper. The headline on the paper reads, La República Está Declarada! The young woman then turns away and darts back into the moving dancing mob of people. The Metropolitan Cathedral can be seen in the background beyond the swarm of people.)


Within a few days of the emperor's death, the head of the Mexican Republican movement, Martin Alcantar Valdés, is sworn into office as Mexico's new president, and although no elections have been held, it is simply a foregone conclusion among many that he will lead the new Mexican government.


During the roughly seventy-two hours between the death of Emperor Francisco José II, and the inauguration of President Valdés, the Mayor of Mexico City is briefly the highest ranking public official in the capitol, and thus the presidential swearing in ceremony is held in his office.


(Color film footage of President Valdés' swearing in ceremony being held inside the mayor's office within Mexico City's Palacio de Ayuntamiento. There are only a few attorneys, city clerks, and a handful of reporters in attendance.)


As a gesture of goodwill towards the new regime, US President Thomas Dewey announces that US troops will be completely withdrawn from the Baja Peninsula, and that Baja California shall be returned to the people of Mexico. US troops begin heading north into the US state of California exactly one week after the death of Emperor Francisco José.


(Black and white film footage of the first and second battalions of the US Army 40th Infantry Division reentering the United States at a border control crossing near San Diego, California. An MP holds a retractable barrier up and out of the way as vehicle after vehicle speeds past the check point in the pre-dawn gloom. Most are covered troop trucks, but there are also a few staff cars, jeeps, and an occasional flatbed truck carrying a barrel included in the convoy. Both sides of the two lane highway are pressed into service in order to move the massive number of troops northwards, and the two solid lanes of military traffic extend back into Mexico as far as the camera can see.


The troops being garrisoned in Baja California are badly needed by the US War Department to bolster its occupation forces already serving in the defeated Confederacy, so the overthrowing of the Second Mexican Empire comes as a complete blessing to US military planners in Philadelphia.


However, when US military strategists had assessed the situation in Mexico just a few months prior, it had not been immediately clear as to whether or not the Mexican Republican movement could actually unseat the Emperor of Mexico anytime within the foreseeable future. As a result of this uncertainty, the US government clandestinely begins working on a plan to establish the Republic of Baja California. US State Department officials quietly handpick a retired school administrator and mathematician, by the name of Ruben De La Cruz, from the town of Ensenada to serve as interim president until elections can be held at a later date.


(Black and white photographic image of a studious thin-faced man in his late fifties sporting a ring of gray hair around his impressively large bald head.)


Nevertheless, just as the US White House is about to announce a timetable for an independent Republic of Baja California, soldiers of the Mexican Republican movement are finally able to break through Imperial defenses surrounding Mexico City, and to storm the emperor's palace. The would be president of Baja California is given amnesty in the sleepy US town of Palo Alto, California, and the covert scheme to turn Baja California into an independent state is quickly forgotten about in the aftermath of the revolution in Mexico City.


(Color film footage of motley looking Republican troops raising the flag of the republic in front of the Imperial Palace in Mexico City. The main square is full of people who have come out early to watch the first raising of Mexico's new flag, and the crowd lets out a collective cheer as the previously unseen banner is hoisted to the top of its pole.)


With a new regime now ruling over Mexico, diplomatic relations between the US and Mexico improve immeasurably over the blatant hostility occurring throughout the years of the Second Mexican Empire. These improved relations are in no doubt at least partially due to the US government's many years of unwavering support for the Republican movement during its long struggle to overthrow the Mexican Emperor, and also to the recent return of Baja California to Mexico by the US government.


(Black and white film footage of a US Vice President Harry Truman and US Secretary of State Prescott Bush visiting the Pyramid of the Sun outside Mexico City. The US diplomats are standing some distance from the base of the pyramid as a general from the Republican army points to the top of the carved stone monument while explaining something to Secretary of State Bush. Bush nods and then his eyes trace the length of the steep stairway as if he is imagining some unseen scene.)


While earlier generations of Mexicans tended to view the US as the great Yankee invader which had stolen Mexico's entire northern frontier, the Mexican people of the late 1940s tend to view the US as a trustworthy friend which has helped the people of Mexico to liberate themselves from a foreign dictatorship imposed upon them by Great Britain, France, and the Confederate States of America.


(Black and white Footage of US businessmen gambling in a Cancun casino which had previously been the exclusive domain of CS and British business magnates.)


As one Mexican journalist of the period put it, "While the loss of the Northern Territories will always remain an extremely painful event in the history of our country, eighty two years of rule under the Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty was ten thousand times worse!"


In order to draw the two countries closer together, US officials sign several lucrative bilateral trade agreements with their Mexican counterparts. These agreements help to stimulate the Mexican economy by granting Mexican companies nearly unfettered access to the burgeoning US consumer market.


(Black and white film footage of unprocessed sugar being loaded into railroad tanker cars for shipment to the US.


(Early 1960s Color film footage of female factory worker soldering circuitry inside a battery operated talking doll.)


(Black and white footage of workers in lab coats using work-bench mounted magnifying glasses to assemble precision men's watches for the US market.)



Meanwhile, the US populace is generally pleased with the prospect of now finally having a friendly neighbor along their southern border, and in the post-war boom years, many people from the US travel south of the border to experience Mexico's warm hospitality first hand.


(Color film footage of a smiling well-to-do family of US tourists walking down the gangway leading from their luxury cruise ship which has just recently docked in Acapulco. The footage jumps to the same family later eating burgers and fries at a busy sidewalk cafe as the children wear novelty sombrero hats.)


(Color film footage of Southern California teenagers heading down the Baja Coast to check out the surf scene on the beaches south of Tijuana. An assorted collection of modified Model A Fords, woodie station wagons, and pickup trucks full of rambunctious youth make their way south along the scenic two lane highway. A pair of blond surfers rides their wooden boards all the way up on to the sand, but the looks upon their faces say that these are not the waves that they are looking for. A picnic on the beach, fried chicken, corn on the cob, and perhaps a few beers sold to them by the enterprising owner of a local cantina. The long drive back home to Orange County as the sun is beginning to set.)



However, as relations between the United States and Mexico improve, the situation between the republics of Texas and Mexico turns blatantly hostile.


(Black and white footage of Mexican soldiers along the Rio Grand engaged in an artillery duel with soldiers of the Texas Self Defense Force on the other side of the river. The unmerciful sun beats down upon the desert landscape as Mexican troops don gas-masks and other protective clothing apparently in preparation for a raid across the international border.)


The Confederate States of America and the Empire of Mexico had maintained close political and military ties throughout the roughly eight decade long rule of the Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty over the Mexican people. However, upon the establishment of the new Republican government in Mexico City, many officials in the new Mexican government come to view the Republic of Texas as nothing other than a rump-state continuation of the old CSA.


(A 1945 political cartoon from a Mexican newspaper depicting a map of North America. The new flag of the republic highlights Mexico, the Stars and Stripes dominate most of the rest of the continent, but the area of the map depicting the Republic of Texas is shown highlighted by the old CS Freedom Party flag.)


Many within the new Mexican government believe that the Republic of Texas is at least partially responsible for the human rights violations committed by Confederate mercenaries employed by Emperor Francisco José II, and many firebrands within the new regime even go so far as to claim that Texas is a renegade province that must be rejoined to Mexico, by force if necessary.


(Black and white film footage of nervous looking Texas diplomats leaving a meeting with their Mexican counterparts at the Presidential Palace in Mexico City. Instead of being able to sign a peace agreement, the Texan diplomats are subjected to more than two hours of continual verbal abuse and harassment by member of Mexico's Republican government.)


The continual border clashes along the Rio Grand go relatively unnoticed in Washington DC as US officials instead focus their attention upon the ongoing Freedom Party resistance movement occurring throughout the defeated Confederacy. It will not be until March of 1946 until the Dewey administration forces both sides to stop firing at each other.


(A 1945 political cartoon from a Texas newspaper: The face of a grimacing President Patman is portrayed as a walnut being crushed in a powerful looking bench vise. One jaw of the vise is labeled "US" while the other is labeled "Mexico".)


In the meanwhile, with Baja California now back in Mexico's control, questions are raised all around about the futures of Sonora and Chihuahua.


(Black and white film footage of a chain link fence topped with heavy razor wire separating the US state of New Mexico from the portion of Sonora that was officially annexed by the US during the war. A sign affixed to the fence proclaims in bold red letters - STOP! DO NOT ENTER! ACTIVE MINEFIELD AHEAD! - and below that in smaller letters US War Department. The relatively new looking barbed wire fence cuts directly across a two lane blacktop road which stretches off towards some distant mountains on the other side of the border.)


Between January 1945 and December 1945 the US simultaneously considers three possible options concerning the future disposition of Sonora and Chihuahua.


(Black and white 1944 film footage of US Navy officers and civilian War Department officials inspecting the former Confederate naval base at Guaymas, Sonora. The group of officials stop to admire a picturesque Spanish style two-story administration building which has come through the war without any visible damage. The camera pans around to show the spacious lawn and low shrubbery lining the walks in front of the building. There is a bronze statue of Confederate President James Longstreet lying on its side in the middle of the lawn, presumably toppled over by US Marines when they took over the base just a few months earlier. A US Admiral walks over and spits a huge mass of cigar stained mucus onto the statue's face. The film cuts to salvage operations focused upon raising Confederate naval vessels, mostly small destroyers and support vessels which were scuttled at their moorings by the surrendering Confederates.)


The first option the US has is to simply hold onto Sonora and Chihuahua, and to officially make them US states at some point in the future. During the months after the war, there is some serious discussion regarding US statehood for the two former CS states, but many government officials raise concerns over admitting two new states in which whites, on average, make up less than a third of the population. Many officials within the US government are concerned that admitting Sonora and Chihuahua may lead to future societal problems, and with the issue of black death camp survivors still unresolved, many in Washington DC are hesitant to take on this extra burden.


Additionally, soon after the war ends, the US Department of the Interior sends surveyors into Sonora and Chihuahua to investigate the mineral wealth found in both states. After an exhaustive study is conducted, the interior department concludes that although the coastal mountains of Sonora contain scattered deposits of precious metals, generally speaking both states lack sufficient mineral wealth to make large scale economic development a feasible possibility. Likewise, the US Army Corps of Engineers simultaneously concludes that a lack of available fresh water will indefinitely hinder commercial agriculture and major industrial development.


(Color film footage of field engineers working for the California San Joaquin Oil Company setting off explosive charges in the desert of Chihuahua in hopes of finding oil. The engineer uses his thumb to press a large red button mounted on a panel located on the side of a special purpose utility truck he is standing next to. The detonation sends up a huge flower of rock and sand several miles in the distance. Two other men wearing wide brim hats study the narrow graph paper that is being spit out by a seismograph machine which is also mounted in the back of the truck. The two continue to examine the narrow ribbon of paper as it is spit out of the machine, but after a few seconds they both shake their heads in the negative indicating that they do not see the telltale seismic echo indicative of a large oil deposit under the ground.)


In addition to the lopsided racial makeup, and the apparent lack of abundant mineral resources, US officials also have deep concerns regarding the general backwardness and lack of modern infrastructure found in both states.


(Color film footage of a young school teacher at a one room school somewhere in the Sonoran Desert using an old fashioned hand pump located in the school yard to provide water for her barefoot students.)


Although the Confederate government did manage to complete some basic infrastructure projects during the roughly sixty-two year period in which Sonora and Chihuahua were a part of the Confederacy, by the start of the Second Great War these two states still remain relatively underdeveloped and backwards when compared to the rest of the former Confederacy, and even more so when compared to the US. Officials in Washington DC quickly realize that it will cost billions of US taxpayer dollars to completely bring Sonora and Chihuahua up to modern US standards, but with the ongoing occupation of the Confederacy, doing so is not a viable option.


(Color film footage of an impoverished Sonoran farmer using a burrow to plow a small field somewhere in the Sierra Madre Occidental mountain range. A small child lingering in the doorway of an unpainted house is plagued by a swarm of flies as she observes her father laboring in the nearby field.)


While the majority of white Confederates living in Sonora and Chihuahua enjoy standards of living comparable to other English speaking areas of North America, most mestizo and Hispanics live at or near the poverty line.


(Grainy color home movie footage depicting a group of young upper-class white women in their early twenties lounging around an outdoor swimming pool which is overlooking a scenic desert valley landscape. The women sport dark sunglasses and the latest Hollywood swimsuit fashions as they pose themselves on towel covered patio furniture. The scene is full of tan lean bodies, blond hair, and beautiful faces. A matronly mestizo woman dressed in a blue maid's uniform slowly walks into the scene and sets a large platter of sliced fruit on a nearby wooden table. A young girl sunning herself on a reclining lounge chair removes a cigarette from her mouth and bites into a succulent piece of cantaloupe.)


After deciding that turning Sonora and Chihuahua into US states is not in the direct best interests of the country, officials in Washington DC begin to focus more attention on the second option, which is to simply grant the two former CS states to the Republic of Texas. Soon after it first opens its doors in Washington DC, the Texas Embassy begins to aggressively lobby members of the US Congress to have Sonora and Chihuahua granted to the Republic of Texas.


(Black and white film footage of the two story neo-colonial brick mansion on New Mexico Street in Washington DC which has been turned into the Texas Embassy. A US solider manning a booth located at the main pedestrian gate checks the identification of a couple of people entering the embassy compound. A Texan flag flies from a pole located in the middle of the lawn a few feet from the concrete patch leading to the front entrance of the building. A black and white Ford Sedan with civilian police markings on its front doors sits parked at the curb in front of the embassy.)


(A black and white still image of a map published by the Texas Expansionists Party. The map depicts the Republic of Texas as covering lands stretching from, Cabo San Lucas at the southern tip of Baja California, to, Texarkana on the Texas Arkansas border.)


However, the Texas Expansionists are undeterred when the Dewey administration announces that Baja California shall be returned to Mexico, and in their view the reason for remaining optimistic is that Baja California was never a part of the Confederate States of America, therefore it should not be a part of the Republic of Texas as well.


(Black and white film footage depicting members of the Texas Expansionist Party attending a committee meeting as their latest party banner is revealed for the first time. The party banner is similar to the national flag of Texas, except that it has three smaller stars arraigned in a vertical row instead of just one lone star. The three stars represent Texas, Sonora, and Chihuahua. The previous party banner held a fourth star for Baja California. The delegates attending the meeting politely clap at the display of their new party flag.)


Should Sonora and Chihuahua be granted to the Republic of Texas, the Texas Expansionist propose that the former CS navy base at Guaymas should be turned into a US Navy base, and that the already existing railroad line between Texas and the Sonoran Coast should be used to supply the speculative US naval installation.


(Black and white still image depicting the railway line between Guaymas and the industrial heartland surrounding the Dallas Fort Worth area. The red line zig-zags through the Sierra Madre Occidental mountain range before flattening out approximately seventy-five miles west of El Paso. From El Paso the line follows a straight path across the US state of Houston before crossing the border into the Republic of Texas near the city of Abilene. From Abilene the railway then makes a beeline straight across the prairie to the city of Dallas.)


The Texas Expansionists believe that the United States government will see the necessity in having a "Little American brother" to help the US administer its influences over the more southerly reaches of the North American continent, and for a period of time at least, it appears that this proposal is given serious support by a handful of US Congressmen.


(Color film footage of Congressmen Berry Goldwater informally chatting with five or six US Senators in the rotunda of the US Capitol Building. A huge landscape painting depicting the 1914 Battle of Pearl Harbor can be seen behind Goldwater, and the angle of the camera makes it appear that the fiery destruction of the Royal Navy's concrete battleship is coming of out the top of Senator Goldwater's head. The senators listen intently to what Goldwater is telling them, but then one of them shakes his head "No" and walks away.)


However, while a few members in both houses express interest in the idea, no official measures are ever put before Congress, and the scheme is dealt its final death knell in late 1945 as the War Department issues a report to the White House outlining future potential pitfalls associated with handing over Sonora and Chihuahua to the Republic of Texas.


(Black and white still image of map titled: Theoretical Texas Expansion - 1995. The map has been stamped Classified - August 9, 1945, with the initials of some forgotten clerk working within the US War Department included in a square box just below the classification date. A smaller stamp mark in the upper right corner of the page declares that the map was declassified on October 15, 1980. The map depicts the hypothetical Texas of the year 1995 as covering the states of Louisiana, Arkansas, Houston, Sequoyah, much of Northern Mexico, the Sandwich Islands, as well as the original Texas homeland.)


The report authored by top officials within the War Department warns that transferring the two former Confederate States to the Republic of Texas may embolden Texas nationalists, and thus the US could find itself facing a potential challenger to its hegemony over the North American continent, a possibly dangerous rival which the US itself would be responsible for having created.


(Black and white still image of US President Dewey sitting at the head of the large table in the Cabinet Room of the White House. US Secretary of State Prescott Bush is standing to one side of the president, as the General of the US Army, Daniel MacArthur stands to the other side of the president while leaning over to indicate something on the map. Both President Dewey and Secretary of State Bush seem to be listening very carefully as MacArthur explains what he is pointing to on the map. US Attorney General Albert Brownell sits in his usual spot to the president's right. Brownell's hands are clasped together on the table in front of him as stares ahead as if in deep thought.)


The US government's third and final option regarding the future of Sonora and Chihuahua is to simply repatriate the two states back to Mexico, and thus after listening to the recommendations of his top-advisors, on December 31st, 1945, President Dewey officially announces that the two states shall be returned to the people of Mexico. The act of returning the two states will essentially return the US - Mexico border to the position it held following the 1854 Gadsden Purchase.


However, before Sonora and Chihuahua can be returned, the US military must first mop up the few stubborn pockets of Freedom Party resistance remaining in those two states.


(Black and white film footage of US troops fighting a ground battle with Freedom Party extremists who have taken up refuge on a ranch outside of New Montgomery, Sonora. A US sniper who has taken up position in a nearby water tower lays down suppression fire as a four man team of US infantrymen work their way towards a large utility shed where a number of Freedom Party Guards are held up. One of the US soldiers uses the butt of his rifle to break in a window on the side of the building. Another soldier quickly inserts the nozzle of a flame thrower and quickly squeezes the trigger. As the surviving Freedom Party men come out of the building, many with their clothes still on fire, they are picked off one by one by other US troops who are lurking behind nearby buildings and pieces of large equipment. A grit covered US solider smiles as he smokes a cigarette for the movie camera. The camera pans down to find the soldiers boot firmly planted upon the thoroughly cooked remains of a human head.)


Once the last major pockets of Freedom Party resistance have been wiped out, US occupation troops can be pulled out and sent eastward into the Old Confederacy where the Freedom Party resistance movement is still a threat. It will be up to Mexican troops to deal with any remaining Freedom Party occurring after the repatriation.


(Color film footage of US Vice President Harry Truman attending a handing over ceremony in Guaymas, Sonora held on March 2, 1946. US troops lower the Stars and Stripes, as similarly dressed Mexican soldiers raise the new Republican flag of Mexico. A similar handing over ceremony will be held in the Chihuahua City, the state capital of Chihuahua on October 12, 1946.)


However, with Sonora and Chihuahua back in Mexican hands, law and order in those two states quickly breaks down, and chills are sent down the spines of Texas government officials in Austin as refugees trickling across the Rio Grand tell stories of ethnic cleansing occurring throughout the two returned states.


(Silent black and white film footage, presumably filmed with a home-movie camera, depicting a terrified well-dressed white-Anglo woman being attacked by a mob of angry mestizo peasants in a sunny town square somewhere outside of New Montgomery. One of the woman's eyes is completely swollen shut as she uses a hand to compress a wound in her scalp that is sending a cascade of blood down the side of her neck. She uses her other hand to make a pleading gesture towards the unseen person behind the camera, but no assistance is forthcoming. In the background behind the panicked injured woman can be seen an expensive looking Vauxhall Town Car, its tailpipe still sending tiny puffs of exhaust into the bright morning air. All of the doors of the luxury car are wide open, with several indistinguishable bodies crumpled on the ground near the front of the vehicle. For the moment the angry peasants are focused on venting their rage upon the crumpled bodies lying near the car's wide bumper. Suddenly, as if perhaps summoned by the person operating the movie camera, the mob made up of mostly drunken men appears to realize that the bloodied woman has wandered away from them. The mob abandons the victims on the ground in front of the car, and rushes to where the woman is standing in front of the camera. The woman disappears out of sight as she is taken to the ground by the angry men. Elbows and fists can be seen flying as bits of bloody clothing are torn off and thrown away.)


Theoretically, the white-Anglos living in Sonora and Chihuahua are supposed to be granted full Mexican citizenship upon the return of those two states to Mexico. However, few step in to protect the isolated former Confederates as they are systematically murdered by organized Mexican peasants seeking retribution for what they consider to be decades spent living under an oppressive feudal system segregated by race.


(Black and white footage of officials from the new Republican government of Sonora serving an eviction notice on a white former Confederate family and ordering them off of their large estate outside the city of Imuris, Sonora. An official uses a hammer and nail to tack a notice onto the ornate carved front door of the huge mansion. The anglo-Confederate family is allowed to flee in a sedan with only what they can carry.)


Just as many Mormons have grown weary of living in the US state of Utah, and have opted to resettle in the world's far flung corners, many former Confederate citizens make their way away from Sonora and Chihuahua to resettle in the remote Australian Outback, where they are known locally as "Featherstoners" after the last President of the Confederacy, Jake Featherston.


(The camera pans across a color landscape photo depicting a medium sized group of people posing in front of rugged clapboard buildings, similar to the type seen in the American Old West. One of the buildings appears to be some sort of a store, with the words "Huge Sale" displayed on a sign taped to the inside of a front facing window. The next structure is a one story bar or saloon with a squared off high-rise false front giving the impression of a nonexistent second story. The last building appears to be either a post office or a bank, but its purpose isn't easily discernible from the photo. The men, women, and children depicted in the group generally appear to be healthy and happy in their new surroundings, and everyone is smiling. Some of the men are wearing shirts and trousers from their old Confederate military uniforms, while nearly everyone else, including the women and children are dressed in sturdy looking work clothes. At one end of the group a school child is proudly holding the Stars and Bars flag of the Confederacy, while at the opposite end of the group a second child holds the Australian national flag with equal pride. Someone in the back row is holding a placard over their head reading "FREEDOM!" but only one person is doing so.)


By the mid-1960s there will be only a handful of Confederate Anglos still living in Sonora and Chihuahua, with most of them residing in and around the US economic zone surrounding Guaymas. However, over the next forty years, there will be persistent, but unfounded, rumors of a Freedom Party redoubt hidden somewhere in the Sierra Madre Occidental mountain range of Sonora.


Tune into next week's episode, the Battle of Jackson, and the establishment of the USOA.
 
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One imagines that the hispanic populations in Sonora and Chihuahua are so keen to target anglo-Confederates in part to obscure the fact that both of those states were major backers of the Freedom Party during the Rise of Featherston ... not to mention prove their bone fides to the new Republic of Mexico (I suspect that there would be Sonoran and Chihuahuan exiles in the leadership of the Mexican Rebels, who would also be eager to pay off past scores).

Out of curiosity is the third Republic technically the "United States of Mexico" (Estatdos Unidos Mexicanos) as is its counterpart in Our World? (one imagines citizens of the Texas Republic being quite horrified by the prospect of finding United States to the North AND the South of them).


By the way, Splendid Work Cire - I was inspired to throw up a "Fast facts" article on FILLING THE GAPS outlining a version of the Imperial Mexican Dynasty peculiar to that thread by your latest contribution to the forums and wanted to suggest a reason for the major differences between that iteration of the Second Mexican Empire and your own: in FILLING THE GAPS continuity Maximilian the First produced no offspring and was persuaded to resign in favour of his adopted son (granting the crown to the house of Habsburg-Iturbide), whereas in Timeline-191 (C) it would appear that either Empress Carlota was able to give the Emperor a son to inherit his titles or they drafted one of the Emperor's nephews to do the job (leaving their adoptive son Agustin and Salvador to rank as Princes of Iturbide, second only to the Imperial Dynasty in the peerage of Mexico).

This means that the Habsburg-Lorraine Dynasty would remain more foreign to its subjects and doubtless less popular to boot (this also means that Maximilian II may well have been not much more than a teenager when he sold Sonora & Chihuahua, assuming he was born in 1864/65 to the Emperor & Empress).

In other words keep up the Good Work!
 
Also, keep an eye on that Goldwater fellah - any New Mexico Democrat willing to business with a Texan is not to be trusted, just ask the New Mexicans!
 
One imagines that the hispanic populations in Sonora and Chihuahua are so keen to target anglo-Confederates in part to obscure the fact that both of those states were major backers of the Freedom Party during the Rise of Featherston ... not to mention prove their bone fides to the new Republic of Mexico (I suspect that there would be Sonoran and Chihuahuan exiles in the leadership of the Mexican Rebels, who would also be eager to pay off past scores).

You're right, maybe there is some eagerness on the part of the Hispanic - mestizo population of Sonora and Chihuahua to prove their loyalty to the new Republican government in Mexico City, but I'm also imagining that US President Dewey had told the President of Mexico (Valdés) that Mexico has carte blanche to deal with remnants of the Freedom Party in any manner they wish. Also, hotheads within the new Republican government wish to purge Sonora and Chihuahua of any and all anglo-Confederte influences, and to reintegrate those two states both culturally and politically back into Mexico. I would also imagine that the Mexican Republican government has secretly sent a fair number of agitators into Sonora and Chihuahua to instigate the mestizo - Indio population into violence against the anglo-Confederates.

Out of curiosity is the third Republic technically the "United States of Mexico" (Estatdos Unidos Mexicanos) as is its counterpart in Our World? (one imagines citizens of the Texas Republic being quite horrified by the prospect of finding United States to the North AND the South of them).

Not exactly. The official name of the Third Republic of Mexico is, "La República Federal de México" (my Spanish is very bad, so please excuse me if I didn't get the grammar quite right.) I don't see the Third Republic in my continuation story really being the same as the Estatdos Unidos Mexicanos in OTL for a number of reasons. In my continuation story the Republic of Mexico is much more dependent upon the United States, and relations between the two countries are much closer than in OTL. In my version of things the US invests more in the Mexican economy, and the US also tends to use its contacts within Mexico to weed out extreme cases of corruption occurring in the Mexican government. I would imagine that by the 1970s that the Mexico of my timeline is a bit more like the nation of Chile in OTL, that it is like the failed criminal state that Mexico had become by the 1970s in OTL. Maybe there is still some isolated pockets of poverty and backwardness here and there in the Yucatan, but by and large it is a modern functioning country which people don't have to flee for a better life.

The US doesn't really encourage too much heavy industry in Mexico, but they do kind of coax the development of light industrial development producing consumer items such as shoes, consumer electronics, toys, clothing, and agricultural products (mostly consumer items). This helps stimulate the Mexican economy to the point where a sizable educated Mexican middle class is in place by the start of the 1970s.

You're right, The Republic of Texas has plenty to fear from the Republic of Mexico. Mexican President Valdés has come to power in a fiery revolution, but during the first few months following the revolution enthusiasm and zeal begin to drop off. President Valdés and his advisors decide that the best way to keep the zeal of the revolutionary alive is to portray the Republic of Texas as fraudulent continuation of the Confederate States of America, and to paint independent Texas as an enemy of the Mexican people. Military skirmishes along the Rio Grand occur at a nearly non-stop pace, and some within the Mexican government even call for war and invasion of Texas. The Texas Self-Defense-Force is severely limited in size due to the armistice signed with the US in 1944, and due to the ongoing personal feud between President Patman and US General Dowling, there is no cooperating between US troops in Texas and the Texas military. President Patman is indeed worried that the forces of Texas may not be able to contain a full scale invasion from Mexico, and between 1945 - 1948 he must tread very carefully.

This means that the Habsburg-Lorraine Dynasty would remain more foreign to its subjects and doubtless less popular to boot (this also means that Maximilian II may well have been not much more than a teenager when he sold Sonora & Chihuahua, assuming he was born in 1864/65 to the Emperor & Empress).

I was imagining that the emperor was never very popular with his Mexican subjects, and that during the wanning years of the Mexican Empire that the emperor would have to rely upon a series of ever increasing military-police crackdowns in order to hold onto power. You're right, I think that the average Mexican would consider the Emperor to be a foreign despot imposed upon them by outside forces, and they would increasingly resent the emperor as time passed. Maybe the emperor has the support of the elite ruling class, but he does not have the support of 80% of the population, and by early 1945 the emperor's authority is limited to a tiny circle surrounding Mexico City, and that is about it. I wanted to paint the picture that the emperor was so wildly unpopular with the people of Mexico, that when the Republicans finally come to power, the Mexican people are willing to forgive any past sins which the US may have carried out against earlier generations of Mexicans (the First Mexican War)
 
Also, keep an eye on that Goldwater fellah - any New Mexico Democrat willing to business with a Texan is not to be trusted, just ask the New Mexicans!

I was imagining that since Goldwater is from New Mexico, that maybe someone from the Republic of Texas would contact him and explain the potential economic benefits to his state if Sonora and Chihuahua were to be granted to Texas. Maybe the same railroad being used to ship materials from the US Navy base at Guaymas could also be used to ship products to and from New Mexico if spurs were built northward into New Mexico. Maybe something like that?
 
By the way, Splendid Work Cire - I was inspired to throw up a "Fast facts" article on FILLING THE GAPS outlining a version of the Imperial Mexican Dynasty peculiar to that thread by your latest contribution to the forums and wanted to suggest a reason for the major differences between that iteration of the Second Mexican Empire and your own: in FILLING THE GAPS continuity Maximilian the First produced no offspring and was persuaded to resign in favour of his adopted son (granting the crown to the house of Habsburg-Iturbide), whereas in Timeline-191 (C) it would appear that either Empress Carlota was able to give the Emperor a son to inherit his titles or they drafted one of the Emperor's nephews to do the job (leaving their adoptive son Agustin and Salvador to rank as Princes of Iturbide, second only to the Imperial Dynasty in the peerage of Mexico).

Well, I guess that I'm really not too familiar with the rules of etiquette in this forum, and I hope that others don't mind if my iteration of things don't match up with what others have posted....?

Anyway, I remember that during the last two 191 novels that there were large numbers of Mexican migrants moving into the CSA to take over jobs that were left vacant by blacks sent off to the death camps. I was imaging that if these migrants were willing to relocate to the Confederacy in search of a better life, then living conditions in the Empire of Mexico must be extremely harsh? If living conditions within the Empire of Mexico are so terrible that people must flee to a country that is losing a war, then I don't believe that the Mexican people are just going to politely ask the emperor to step down, and I believe that they would want to tear him apart limb from limb. (Like what happened to Mussolini in Italy, or more recently to Gaddafi in Libya.)


I was imagining that the entire world would be thrown into complete chaos following the end of the Second Great War, and that all over the world large numbers of people are on the march (Greeks leaving Turkey, Hindus leaving Pakistan, blacks leaving the defeated CS, and whites fleeing Sonora and Chihuahua) and while all of this is going on revolutions are happening all over the world as the British and French empires are dismantled. I think that this would be a very violent period in world history, and that dictators/emperors being executed by their subjects would be a fairly common occurrence during the first few years after the war.
 
Cire, please pardon me for taking so long to get back to you - an appointment drew me away at a crucial moment and by the time one got back it was time to start getting ready for a morning shift, so my replies to your latest post must seem dreadfully belated!


Not exactly. The official name of the Third Republic of Mexico is, "La República Federal de México" (my Spanish is very bad, so please excuse me if I didn't get the grammar quite right.)

Why not República de Mexico or República Mexico, so that you can avoid any worries about grammar? (I've done some research and these names would fit with the naming patterns of Central American Republics); I quite like the latter for being so "We're a Republic now, Republics are cool" while remaining so succinct, though my opinion may not be entirely objective!


You're right, The Republic of Texas has plenty to fear from the Republic of Mexico.

Doubtless the Mexicans have a few worries about the Lone Star Republic in their own right, though it seems likely that seven million-odd Texans have rather more to be concerned about when faced with 25,000,000 odd Mexicans to the South and 100,000,000+ Yankees to the North!


I was imagining that since Goldwater is from New Mexico, that maybe someone from the Republic of Texas would contact him and explain the potential economic benefits to his state if Sonora and Chihuahua were to be granted to Texas. Maybe the same railroad being used to ship materials from the US Navy base at Guaymas could also be used to ship products to and from New Mexico if spurs were built northward into New Mexico. Maybe something like that?

One must admit that I was teasing, based on the logic that a Border State like New Mexico would have plenty of grudges against one of the Confederate States on its very frontiers! (one idea I've seen suggested elsewhere is that New Mexico & Arizona were rolled together into a single state in Timeline-191 because the threat of Confederate Raiders from Texas left settlers a lot thinner on the ground than they were in Our Timeline).;)


Well, I guess that I'm really not too familiar with the rules of etiquette in this forum, and I hope that others don't mind if my iteration of things don't match up with what others have posted....?

Not at all; "separate threads, separate continuity" would seem to be the Golden Rule on these Forums and I think them all the richer for it! (I was, in fact, quite happily brainstorming a few suggestions for reasons Timeline-191:C might differ from FILLING THE GAPS continuity*).

*Which one might have to start referring to as Timeline-191 (F) at this rate.:biggrin:
 

bguy

Donor
One must admit that I was teasing, based on the logic that a Border State like New Mexico would have plenty of grudges against one of the Confederate States on its very frontiers! (one idea I've seen suggested elsewhere is that New Mexico & Arizona were rolled together into a single state in Timeline-191 because the threat of Confederate Raiders from Texas left settlers a lot thinner on the ground than they were in Our Timeline).

IOTL New Mexico and Arizona were largely settled by people from the southern states. Since those southern states are part of a different country in TL-191, it makes sense that there would be much less settlement into New Mexico and Arizona than IOTL.
 
I wonder if the Confederate States ever made an attempt to shift the border between their West and the US Southwest while that line was still more a notion than a national frontier?
 
There is no such thing as being late on the Internet. Please take your time. I'm going to be going on a short trip myself, and may not be able to post anything during the next week or so.

Why not República de Mexico or República Mexico, so that you can avoid any worries about grammar? (I've done some research and these names would fit with the naming patterns of Central American Republics); I quite like the latter for being so "We're a Republic now, Republics are cool" while remaining so succinct, though my opinion may not be entirely objective!

I guess that "República de Mexico" has a nice ring to it, so I'll go with that in case I have to refer to Mexico by its Spanish name. Otherwise I'll probably just refer to is has "Mexico" or the "Republic of Mexico". Also, for what it is worth, I was imagining that the new Mexican flag in my story would look similar to the Mexican flag in OTL, except that it would have the words "Viva La Revolución" below the eagle sitting on the cactus, and that there might be an arch of gold stars above the eagle's head signifying the number of states in the new Mexican republic.

Doubtless the Mexicans have a few worries about the Lone Star Republic in their own right, though it seems likely that seven million-odd Texans have rather more to be concerned about when faced with 25,000,000 odd Mexicans to the South and 100,000,000+ Yankees to the North!

I don't think that Wright Patman fears a US invasion, since US troops are already in his country anyway, but he does have concerns regarding a full scale ground war with the Mexican Army. (At this point most of the US troops are on the Louisiana and Arkansas border.) Additionally, his concerns become even profound once news of the ethnic cleansing occurring in Sonora and Chihuahua begins to reach Austin. Also, at this point Texas has lost roughly one third of its territory to the US state of Houston, so I'm not so sure that Texas would have such a large fighting force to throw into an all out war with Mexico?

Anyway, Mexico does not invade or occupy Texas in my continuation story, but if it did, I imagine that US President Dewey would probably order them out, and if they failed to comply then he would just institute a regime change in Mexico City. There is always some general waiting in the wings who is chomping at the bit for the chance to rule, and the first president of the Republic of Mexico, Martin Alcantar Valdés, was not democratically elected anyway, so staging another revolution probably wouldn't be that difficult for the US to do under such circumstances.

One must admit that I was teasing, based on the logic that a Border State like New Mexico would have plenty of grudges against one of the Confederate States on its very frontiers! (one idea I've seen suggested elsewhere is that New Mexico & Arizona were rolled together into a single state in Timeline-191 because the threat of Confederate Raiders from Texas left settlers a lot thinner on the ground than they were in Our Timeline).;)

Actually, I don't think your comment is that far-fetched, and I think it is legitimate to ask why Barry Goldwater might be willing to act as an agent for the Republic of Texas. If Goldwater is in New Mexico, he might feel that it is better to have the Republic of Texas along his state's southern border, than it would be to have Mexico on the other side of his southern border? Also, maybe Goldwater thinks that Texas controlled Sonora and Chihuahua would make lucrative trading partners for his own state, and would help to boost the economy of his state? Or maybe the Texans just approached Goldwater and dumped a briefcase full of money on his desk? Or maybe it was a combination of all three? Anyway you look at it I think that it is a fair to wonder why Goldwater would be willing to cozy up so closely to the Republic of Texas.

I wonder if the Confederate States ever made an attempt to shift the border between their West and the US Southwest while that line was still more a notion than a national frontier?

I honestly don't know, but in our own time line the US Army maintained a string of military outposts along the US - Mexican border in order to prevent bandits from crossing into the US from Mexico. I imagine that they would probably do something similar in the 191 universe?
 
IOTL New Mexico and Arizona were largely settled by people from the southern states. Since those southern states are part of a different country in TL-191, it makes sense that there would be much less settlement into New Mexico and Arizona than IOTL.

Or, I wonder if refugees from the establishment of the CSA at the end of the War of Secession would opt to flee Confederacy and settle in New Mexico? In OTL, I believe that there were a fair number of people who fled the Thirteen Colonies and fled to New Brunswick because they didn't agree with the American Revolution. Maybe something similar could have happened during the War of Secession, and perhaps a few thousand refugees from the CSA could have relocated into New Mexico?

Even if nothing like that happened, I imagine that the people of New Mexico would have more in common with the people of Texas, culturally, than they would with other US citizens living in Vermont, Michigan, or Oregon. So perhaps that could have been a factor in why Goldwater was willing to listen to offers from the Republic of Texas.
 
In case anyone is interested, I was thinking about a scenario in which Texan President Wright Patman is making a speech in front of a joint session of the Texas legislature, approximately three weeks after his visit to Washington DC.

I don't have the exact words of Patman's speech worked out yet, but basically I have Patman thanking the members of the legislature who supported him when he took Texas out of the Confederacy, but now he is going to need their support for an even bolder move.

Patman also tells the legislature that he has also recently visited Los Angeles, California, (invited by Governor Earl Warn) and that there is a four lane super highway called the 101 which stretches all the way from Los Angeles to San Francisco, but in Texas the only place that four lane roads exist is in the downtown business districts of Dallas and Houston. Patman also tells them that one in five suburban Los Angeles County homes has a backyard swimming pool, but in the Republic of Texas one in four homes does not have hot and cold indoor plumbing.

Patman declares that Jake Featherston said that he would tell people the truth, but he Wright Patman, will tell them the facts, and right now at this moment the people of Texas are living twenty-five years behind the people of California. Patman states that Texas has not seen real prosperity since before the start of the First Great War, and that throughout the twentieth century, the Confederate government back in Richmond neglected Texas while preferring to use Texas tax dollars to build dams in Kentucky and Tennessee.

Patman then boldly delcares that the only way Texans can ever again experience real prosperity is by rejoining the US.

After his speech a few members of the Radical Liberal party ask if it is true that the Texas Whig Party will merge with the US Democratic Party. Patman states that the Whig party committee is expected to vote on the matter soon, and he advises the Radical Liberals to make contact with the US Republican Party.
 
Patman could suggest a version of four-lane highways from Dallas to Houston to San Antonio (the Texas Triangle) with branches reaching out towards El Paso and Tulsa at a later time. This could be sold as a benefit for business and defense. Patman would also propose Farm to Market roads and rural electrification to help the rural population. This would be paid with oil revenues from State lands, assuming Texas still has them.
 
Also, for what it is worth, I was imagining that the new Mexican flag in my story would look similar to the Mexican flag in OTL, except that it would have the words "Viva La Revolución" below the eagle sitting on the cactus, and that there might be an arch of gold stars above the eagle's head signifying the number of states in the new Mexican republic.

I'd suggest making the stars gold outlined with red to help make them stand out on the white field; they'd have to be quite small stars and the arch would have to be constructed from a number of layers, since there would need to be somewhere between 31 and 50 stars, depending on whether the New Republic remodels the local divisions of Mexico into a form that resembles the modern Mexican States of Our Own timeline or sticks with the Departments into which Mexico would be divided after March 13, 1865.


There is always some general waiting in the wings who is chomping at the bit for the chance to rule, and the first president of the Republic of Mexico, Martin Alcantar Valdés, was not democratically elected anyway, so staging another revolution probably wouldn't be that difficult for the US to do under such circumstances.

Making President Dewey something of a hypocrite for arresting the Leadership Caucus of the Socialist Party for being only vaguely associated with a remarkably similar process!


Also, at this point Texas has lost roughly one third of its territory to the US state of Houston, so I'm not so sure that Texas would have such a large fighting force to throw into an all out war with Mexico?

Those numbers don't actually represent the Armies of the various nations, but their total populations - for the record Texas would have had closer to 8 million inhabitants in Our Own Timeline! - and one does imagine that the Texas Land Forces would be rather smaller; I wonder if the Second Republic actually maintains a navy?


I imagine that they would probably do something similar in the 191 universe?

I imagine they'd have to do rather more, with a somewhat less unstable but arguably far more hostile nation on their frontiers!


Even if nothing like that happened, I imagine that the people of New Mexico would have more in common with the people of Texas, culturally, than they would with other US citizens living in Vermont, Michigan, or Oregon. So perhaps that could have been a factor in why Goldwater was willing to listen to offers from the Republic of Texas.

I agree with all of the above; it is interesting to imagine New Mexico (T-191) as something of a "Scallowag" State.



Patman declares that Jake Featherston said that he would tell people the truth, but he Wright Patman, will tell them the facts, and right now at this moment the people of Texas are living twenty-five years behind the people of California. Patman states that Texas has not seen real prosperity since before the start of the First Great War, and that throughout the twentieth century, the Confederate government back in Richmond neglected Texas while preferring to use Texas tax dollars to build dams in Kentucky and Tennessee.

Also because Texas Money Men like to keep their own money from reaching anyone else's pockets, if they can possibly do so ...


Patman then boldly delcares that the only way Texans can ever again experience real prosperity is by rejoining the US.

It would seem that the Second Republic of Texas inherited the "No Second Terms" aspect of the Constitution from the First Republic and the Confederate States, because he's clearly not planning on reelection whichever way this particular initiative plays out!


After his speech a few members of the Radical Liberal party ask if it is true that the Texas Whig Party will merge with the US Democratic Party. Patman states that the Whig party committee is expected to vote on the matter soon, and he advises the Radical Liberals to make contact with the US Republican Party.

It amused me to read this, because if any State is unlikely to produce a substantial Radical Liberal contingent it's Texas - given the "Rad Libs" connections with the Spanish Confederacy it seems unlikely they'd find many friends in the Lone Star State! In fact it actually occurred to me that these "Radical Liberals" may be a very new party that took an old name because it was firmly associated with some of the fiercest Opposition to the Featherston Regime.

In fact some little figment of whimsy makes me wonder if these "Radical Liberals" might be ex-Redemption League members trying to move past their ... unfortunate association with the Freedom Party while attempting to borrow a little sympathy from those who suffered more from the principles that advocated than from backing the wrong Power Play (not to mention being associated a little too closely with Willy Knight even before that).


Well Cire, I would like to conclude by saying that this seems a very interesting plot-line, though one would also like to suggest that having Texas give up and join the United States after barely any time seems a little too "Nice and Easy" for the Dewey Administration (one would also suggest that this allows all the potential of a Divided North America presided over by the wary United States to fizzle out with disappointing ease); might one suggest that when President Patman advances this suggestion, he finds himself obliged to submit the question to a National Referendum ... and loses, against all expectation.

After all, President Patman's own arguments can be turned against him - "Texas money in Texan pockets" makes a good campaign slogan - for why should Texas send money to the US Government if sending money to the Confederate Government was so little to their advantage? Why can Texas not fulfil it's own Destiny and build up its own Economy by doing business with other Nations as an equal? If Texas can be neglected in a Nation where it is inarguably the largest and most populous State, how can it command attention where it ranks second to California? (a Nation, moreover, with which the Lone Star Republic has shared a long, hostile History and very little in terms of Culture).

It might also be pointed out, as Traveller 76 has mentioned, that it is entirely within Texas' power to develop its own infrastructure (especially if it attracts Foreign Investment by offering far looser Business Regulations than those of the United States, along with a share in Texas Oil Money).

More to the point, Men of Ambition would likely be unhappy to see their chances of becoming local King fish swept away as their local lake becomes not much more than a drop in a far vaster ocean; why settle for being a mere Senator from the State of Texas when you can be President of the Lone Star Republic?

^^Just a few suggestions to flesh out the Nationalist Opposition likely to greet President Patman's suggestion; I imagine you have your own ideas and will put them into practice with your usual skill!^^
 
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Patman could suggest a version of four-lane highways from Dallas to Houston to San Antonio (the Texas Triangle) with branches reaching out towards El Paso and Tulsa at a later time. This could be sold as a benefit for business and defense. Patman would also propose Farm to Market roads and rural electrification to help the rural population. This would be paid with oil revenues from State lands, assuming Texas still has them.

One of the things which I've kind of left out is the fact that the Texas Dollar was initially worth fifty US Cents at the start of independence, but after a few months the Texas Dollars eventually falls to around five US Cents, as people exchange their Texas Dollars for gold on the black market. Something nearly identical happened to this in OTL when the Philippines became an independent nation following WWII. Initially the Filipino Peso had been artificially set at fifty US Cents, but six months after independence was declared, the value of the currency dropped as people didn't have much faith in it, and they preferred to either do business in US Dollars, gold, or barter.

I'm imagining that the Republic of Texas is pretty bankrupt during the years immediately following the war, and during this period of time they cannot really afford engaging in large infrastructure projects. If you look at a map of oil production by Texas counties, a large percentage of Texas oil is pumped from the western part of the state - areas that would be the US state of Houston in the 191 universe. If the US has control of Sequoyah and Huston, then the Republic of Texas can probably only earn so much tax revenue by selling Texas oil to the US. Anyway, the I picture the postwar Texas economy as not being very robust, but at the same time the US postwar economy is doing magnificently well, and that is one of the reasons why Patman wants to take Texas back into the US. He realizes that an independent Texas will always be backwards and underdeveloped compared to the US.
 
I'd suggest making the stars gold outlined with red to help make them stand out on the white field; they'd have to be quite small stars and the arch would have to be constructed from a number of layers, since there would need to be somewhere between 31 and 50 stars, depending on whether the New Republic remodels the local divisions of Mexico into a form that resembles the modern Mexican States of Our Own timeline or sticks with the Departments into which Mexico would be divided after March 13, 1865.

You're probably right about that thirty-one stars above the eagle's head would look awfully busy, and maybe the thing to to is to drop the stars altogether, or to make the eagle and cactus a bit smaller, and encircle both the eagle and its cactus with a ring of thirty-one stars?

Making President Dewey something of a hypocrite for arresting the Leadership Caucus of the Socialist Party for being only vaguely associated with a remarkably similar process!

Actually I'm imagining Dewey to be a pretty rough character, and to be someone who isn't going to be bothered by what he sees as loopholes in the US legal system. While Dewey isn't an outright dictator like Jake Featherston, there is somewhat of a cult of personality surrounding him. I picture him as being almost like an emperor, and people are willing to follow his orders unquestioningly, because the people of the US believe that he is the man who can put the country back onto the path it had been on before the War of Secession derailed it. Also, many within the Dewey administration see the postwar political landscape (both foreign and domestic) as being littered with dangerous land-mines which could destroy or undermine the US victory that was gained at the end of the Second Great War.

You may remember that in one of my earlier postings that President Dewey asked his Attorney General, Albert Brownell, if the information they had tying President Patman to Camp Determination was strong enough to send him in front of a war crimes tribunal. Brownell implies that he will make the evidence strong enough to implicate President Patman, similar to what was done when charges were filed against Flora Hamburger. I think that this shows that the Dewey feels secure enough to engage in certain types of corruption, so long as the corruption is being done to keep the country safe. - As I said, this is a very different postwar world from our own.

Those numbers don't actually represent the Armies of the various nations, but their total populations - for the record Texas would have had closer to 8 million inhabitants in Our Own Timeline! - and one does imagine that the Texas Land Forces would be rather smaller; I wonder if the Second Republic actually maintains a navy?

Well, the Republic of Texas does not have a noteworthy navy to speak of, and morale and confidence is low over country due to the loss of Houston. The people of Texas generally feel like a defeated people (even though they are much better off than former Confederates in other parts of the old CSA) and with the limitations placed upon him by the armistice agreement, Patman is deeply worried about the war-hawks down in Mexico City. This is why everyone in Texas was so enthusiastic following the joint US - Texas rain into Sequoyah a few weeks earlier.


It would seem that the Second Republic of Texas inherited the "No Second Terms" aspect of the Constitution from the First Republic and the Confederate States, because he's clearly not planning on reelection whichever way this particular initiative plays out!

Actually, I was imagining that Patman will win a second term as President of Texas, and I think that I had him attending his second presidential inauguration in January of 1947, I'd have to go back and look. Anyway, I wanted Patman to be the only American politician in history to go from being the governor of a CS state, the president of an independent nation, and finally as a governor of a US state. After that I have him working in the US State Dept. and being an advisor to the US president until he eventually retires in 1980. Actually, Patman is pretty adamant about holding onto the executive branch of the Texas government as long as he possibly can, and one of his goals is to over see Texas as it becomes the most influential state in the US.


It amused me to read this, because if any State is unlikely to produce a substantial Radical Liberal contingent it's Texas - given the "Rad Libs" connections with the Spanish Confederacy it seems unlikely they'd find many friends in the Lone Star State! In fact it actually occurred to me that these "Radical Liberals" may be a very new party that took an old name because it was firmly associated with some of the fiercest Opposition to the Featherston Regime.

I imagine that there would probably be at least a couple of Rad Libs hanging around in the Texas legislature? Anyway, I don't see Patman having the stranglehold on power that Dewey has, and when his opposition realizes that Patman plans on increasing his political power by merging the Texas Whigs with the US Democratic Party, then I imagine they'd howl about it. Can they do anything about? Probably not.

Just one final note on US President Dewey. When I first started this project a few years back, I was imagining a scene in which Dewey has Clarence Potter picked up off the streets of Richmond (or wherever he was living at the end of In at the Death) and he has Potter taken into the Oval Office so that he can talk to him. Dewey has two New York mobsters in the Oval Office with him, and he has the mobsters torture Potter right there in the Oval Office as Dewey smokes a cigar while sitting at his desk. Potter objects and says that he was acquitted of all charges against him by a US court of law. Dewey responds by saying, "What is about to happen to you isn't a part of any court of law, and maybe you should have thought about the consequences before you killed 12,000 people up in Philadelphia while wearing a US uniform". Well, I abandoned this idea, but I kinda held onto the sense that this is the type of person that US President Dewey is, and that this is the world in which he operates. (He was willing to get Potter's blood all over the hardwood floor, because the White House was scheduled to begin remodeling work the following day, and this would have been the last thing to occur in the old Oval Office.)
 
You're probably right about that thirty-one stars above the eagle's head would look awfully busy, and maybe the thing to to is to drop the stars altogether, or to make the eagle and cactus a bit smaller, and encircle both the eagle and its cactus with a ring of thirty-one stars?

Why not "double up" the stars and use a smaller, gold star within a larger red star to symbolise two provinces? (that would reduce things to a reasonable number).


I think that this shows that the Dewey feels secure enough to engage in certain types of corruption, so long as the corruption is being done to keep the country safe. - As I said, this is a very different postwar world from our own.

It's rather sad - one would have thought the Confederate States would provided a perfect illustration of why one should never let a Gangster into public office! (if I might offer my only suggestion on this point; change this President Dewey's middle name, as a way of warning readers up-front that this is most certainly not the moderate and progressive Thomas E. Dewey of Our Timeline*).

*Professor Turtledove would appear to have done something similar in the books by making President La Follette "Charles W." rather than the historic "Charles Marion" as a way of distinguishing him from the Representative from Indiana know to Our history. My suggestion would be "Thomas H. Dewey" as Thomas Edmund appears to have been given the christian name of one of his paternal uncles in Our History (Edmund), so it's possible that in another History he might have become Thomas Henry Dewey in honour of the other.


Well, the Republic of Texas does not have a noteworthy navy to speak of, and morale and confidence is low over country due to the loss of Houston. The people of Texas generally feel like a defeated people (even though they are much better off than former Confederates in other parts of the old CSA) and with the limitations placed upon him by the armistice agreement, Patman is deeply worried about the war-hawks down in Mexico City. This is why everyone in Texas was so enthusiastic following the joint US - Texas rain into Sequoyah a few weeks earlier.

The fact that they get to play "Cowboys and Indians" in the nastiest way possible probably helps cheer them up too, bad cess to them.


Actually, I was imagining that Patman will win a second term as President of Texas, and I think that I had him attending his second presidential inauguration in January of 1947, I'd have to go back and look. Anyway, I wanted Patman to be the only American politician in history to go from being the governor of a CS state, the president of an independent nation, and finally as a governor of a US state. After that I have him working in the US State Dept. and being an advisor to the US president until he eventually retires in 1980. Actually, Patman is pretty adamant about holding onto the executive branch of the Texas government as long as he possibly can, and one of his goals is to over see Texas as it becomes the most influential state in the US.

An interesting idea, though one suspects that this approach might work better for a Cuban than for a Texan; for one thing Cuba appears to have been far more active over a longer period of time in Resistance to the Featherston Administration and bears far less of the onus for the "Population Reduction" - for another it would be a mighty hard to sell the US Congress on allowing the State of Houston to reintegrate with the State of Texas, even if the latter were to be restored to the Union (remember what happened the last time a Northern President allowed that particular combination to play out), especially so soon after the Second Great War (It also seems highly probable that there would be Business Interests in the United States perfectly happy to see the oil fields of Houston remain unattached to a State big enough to have ideas of its own concerning what to do with that oil).

I would also like to point out that Patman is the President of a very young Republic and at the head of a very proud State; Texas might not have the muscle left to give the USA serious trouble, but one suspects that any President of the Lone Star Republic who thinks he can ride roughshod over its Congress will be given a sharp lesson in the limits of Executive power (especially when his ambitions seem more likely to profit himself than Congress, though the populace of Texas might also turn a minor profit).


Can they do anything about? Probably not.

That all depends on whether President Dewey actually cares about the difference between a Puppet and a Stooge; one imagines that so long as Texas remains quiet and does what he tells it to, the question of whether it's a United State or a Satellite Republic is fairly moot, surely?
 
Hello Tiro, sorry for the late reply. I went away for a few days, and the wifi at my hotel wasn't working very well.

Why not "double up" the stars and use a smaller, gold star within a larger red star to symbolise two provinces? (that would reduce things to a reasonable number).

Sounds like a good idea, and I can picture it perfectly. I just wish I knew how to do graphic work in order to create some of the images I have knocking about in my imagination. Oh well.

It's rather sad - one would have thought the Confederate States would provided a perfect illustration of why one should never let a Gangster into public office! (if I might offer my only suggestion on this point; change this President Dewey's middle name, as a way of warning readers up-front that this is most certainly not the moderate and progressive Thomas E. Dewey of Our Timeline*).

But is my version of Dewey really a gangster? After all he isn't really busting kneecaps or rubbing people out to enrich himself.....? Also, unlike Jake Featherston he isn't necessarily eliminating people because he wants the US to take over all of North America......? But I agree that he does tend to use thuggish and brutal tactics when he thinks that the fate of the nation might be at stake. (He honestly believes that the socialists are a dangerous organization, and that they are a threat to the peace and security of the country.)

Well, imagine that you are living in the 191 universe, it is 1945, and you've just been sworn in as President of the United States of America, immediately after the US has just finished fighting an all out war with a completely treacherous adversary. You know that past US presidents have attempted to use diplomacy and dialog in order to maintain peace and security, but that has never worked out very well, and time after time, in the past, your country has been duped by its adversaries. Also, you also realize that there is a dangerous fanatical political movement in the defeated Confederacy known as the Freedom Party extremist movement, and under no circumstances can you ever allow these people to achieve their goals, because if you do, it will most likely mean the deaths of millions of people at some point in the future (nuclear war with a revived Confederacy). - So you take the experiences you learned from prosecuting New York Mafia bosses, and use those lessons against the Freedom Party, and anyone else you consider to be a major threat against the continued peace and security of the US. I don't see the Dewey I've created as being a bad guy, he just feels that there is too much at stake to risk playing by Marquess of Queensberry rules, with one hand tied behind his back, as previous presidents did. Dewey would probably like to see a full restoration of everyone's constitutional rights restored when the situation in America has been stabilized, but he isn't willing to gamble on doing so during the dangerous postwar years. (Sorry if I keep repeating a dead horse.)

The fact that they get to play "Cowboys and Indians" in the nastiest way possible probably helps cheer them up too, bad cess to them.

That is definitely a factor, but another factor is that many Freedom Party hardliners consider the people and government of Texas to be traitors, and they like to blame Texas politicians in particular for the fact that the CSA lost the war. Well, in my version of the 191 universe, the people of Texas kind of considered themselves to be Texans before they considered themselves to be Confederates, so when the Freedom Party hardliners start blaming Texans for the loss of the war, most people in Texas begin to develop a very negative attitude towards the Freedom Party.

would also like to point out that Patman is the President of a very young Republic and at the head of a very proud State; Texas might not have the muscle left to give the USA serious trouble, but one suspects that any President of the Lone Star Republic who thinks he can ride roughshod over its Congress will be given a sharp lesson in the limits of Executive power (especially when his ambitions seem more likely to profit himself than Congress, though the populace of Texas might also turn a minor profit).

I've tried to explain most of this stuff in my most recent posting regarding Patman performing an address in front of a joint session of the Texas Congress. Texas is a young republic, but in the 1940s it has very limited potential for future growth, it cannot acquire additional territory by any means, most countries around the world have opted not to grant it diplomatic recognition, and it citizens have one of the lowest standards of living in English speaking North America. Maybe Texans were enthusiastic when independence was declared in 1944, but by 1948 they soon realize that being a small independent nation during the middle of the 20th century is not necessarily as easy as it would have been a century earlier during the middle of the 19th century. Patman realizes that an independent Republic of Texas is an outmoded idea, so his only option is to join the US, or watch his country turn into a third world dictatorship.


That all depends on whether President Dewey actually cares about the difference between a Puppet and a Stooge; one imagines that so long as Texas remains quiet and does what he tells it to, the question of whether it's a United State or a Satellite Republic is fairly moot, surely?
I think that the Republic of Texas is already a puppet of the United States, but Patman hopes to improve things in Texas by making it a full fledged US state.
 
Hello Tiro, sorry for the late reply. I went away for a few days, and the wifi at my hotel wasn't working very well.

Not a problem, old chap - Real Life takes priority after all - and I must admit that work commitments leave me unable to answer at length until this weekend (though please be assured that I am very happy to compliment your work and give my thoughts on the subjects raised, as well as share my own ideas).

I hope that you'll keep very well until then!:)


Sounds like a good idea, and I can picture it perfectly. I just wish I knew how to do graphic work in order to create some of the images I have knocking about in my imagination. Oh well.

p.s. I've recently discovered a thread in the "Maps and Graphics" subsection of these forums where one can request flags from the artists who hang out there.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/request-maps-flags-here.228562/page-330#post-16855643

^^As you'll be able to see, they do good work but you'll have to compete for their attention with quite a few eager imagineers!^^
 
p.s. I've recently discovered a thread in the "Maps and Graphics" subsection of these forums where one can request flags from the artists who hang out there.

Hello Tiro, I've posted something over there, but I'm not sure if I asked for too much or not?

Anyway, when I did my first draft for the above segment, originally I had President Patman speaking to a bunch of Texas business men about Texas becoming a US state, so I realize that there are probably a lot incongruities since I chopped everything up and tried to re-purpose it for something else. Lately I've been taking material from a rough draft I created back in 2015, and I've been stitching that together to create a mock documentary titled: Freedom Becomes a Dirty Word. It will deal with life in postwar US between 1944 - 1987. It may take a while to cut and paste this one from my old drafts, but hopefully it will be worth it.
 
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