Timeline-191 Japan Discussion

Sumeragi

Banned
After reading the TL-191: After the End, I felt that many people are fixed in their thoughts of how Japan would behave, as in the same type of army rampage that occurred in OTL. However, the more I think about it, the more I feel that Japan would certainly take a different path, since having the Philippines after the Hispano-Japanese War would bring forth a completely new path on colonial administration, leading to a complete shift from the isolated, ultranationalist route that was taken. Therefore, I wish for a general discussion on TL-191 Japan, to both fix the Turtledove's rather bane way of portraying Japan, to preparing it for the After the End timeline.

Please go ahead with your thoughts. I'll bring forth mine after there are several posts.
 
After reading the TL-191: After the End, I felt that many people are fixed in their thoughts of how Japan would behave, as in the same type of army rampage that occurred in OTL. However, the more I think about it, the more I feel that Japan would certainly take a different path, since having the Philippines after the Hispano-Japanese War would bring forth a completely new path on colonial administration, leading to a complete shift from the isolated, ultranationalist route that was taken. Therefore, I wish for a general discussion on TL-191 Japan, to both fix the Turtledove's rather bane way of portraying Japan, to preparing it for the After the End timeline.

Please go ahead with your thoughts. I'll bring forth mine after there are several posts.

Mmmm, so in this timeline, the Japanese will have taken Taiwan/Formosa, Philippines, and Korea by 1910. That will make things interesting, especially with the Philippines, where the people are certainly visibly different from the Japanese, specifically the Yamatos, which would help Japan realize the multi-ethnic nature of its new empire. A good goal would be to figure out how to have Japan treat its colonies closer to how they treated Formosa before WW2 OTL, IIRC they eventually had Diet representatives from Taiwan, and had Japan been able to keep control of Taiwan, there's no doubt it would have eventually been upgraded to Home Island status. The big challenge of course is to balance this with the ethnonationalism that is more or less inherent in Japan, alongside the huge ethnonationalism in Korea. Another interestingthing will be how Japan responds to Filipino independence activists. Would it be possible for Japan to give them the status something like an autonomous region, say that they are very much part of the Japanese Empire, but Japan won't try to impose their culture on the Filipinos?
 

Sumeragi

Banned
I believe we need to take out Korea for now, because the lack of the Russo-Japanese War means that the Korean equation is completely changed. Without a rational for the signing of the 1905 Protectorate Treaty, it's highly likely that the assassination of Ito Hirobumi might have never occurred, pushing Korean annexation back, or at least in a different form from the Government-General. Therefore, allow us to discuss Korea later.

The annexation of the Philippines leads to at least the following three main issues:

1. The triumph of the Nanshin-ron (Advance South), changing the basic ideological conflict that had plagued Japan before the occupation of Manchuria (a nice paper on how Nanshin-ron changed in OTL is Nanshin-ron: Its Turning Point in World War I). With a greater focus on the "South Sea", we can see a more "cosmopolitan" face that will have long-going effects.

2. How Japan deals with the independence movement. I'm not quite sure how the new "subjects" will react, but I believe that it'll be similar to what the US did, which would mean that Japan's "role model" for Asians will never get off the ground.

3. Government: After everything is settled, I think the Philippines will be governed similarly to how Taiwan was government, with a more "liberal" way of governing.


BTW, there never were Diet members representing Taiwan.
 
Coulda sworn I read somewhere that there had been, or at least representatives from Taiwan. Maybe that was just postwar planning OTL.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
There were laws for it, yes, but at the time it was more of a gesture to show that the people of Taiwan were "equal" subjects within the empire (meaning no actual Diet members). Whether that would have actually been implicated after the war remains to be seen.

However, I sort of see it as possible in TL-191.
 
The problem is that the author of the series had absolutely no idea in how to make Japan fit credibly into TL-191 nor any interest in correcting this state of affairs which is why Japan's role in the series consistently makes no sense.
 

Vexacus

Banned
I hope Japan gets to keep some/the majority of it's Empire. They would provide a good rival to the US
 
I always had trouble understanding what the hell was going on with Japan in the series. I always assummed that Japan was operating with impunity, with no western power really concerned about them. Am I interpreting that wrong?
 
With no allies nor any hope of changing this fact while literally surrounded by an entire series of nations which consider Japan either an enemy or a betrayer plus none of the post WWII reforms from our TL?

The major difference in this TL is that Russia will be as united with the US in hostility to Japan as the British Commonwealth nations.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
Uhm.... I established this thread to see how TL-191 Japan would be different from OTL Japan. We can discuss about that After the End timeline later along the line. So please, refrain from the post-ending speculations for now.


I always had trouble understanding what the hell was going on with Japan in the series. I always assummed that Japan was operating with impunity, with no western power really concerned about them. Am I interpreting that wrong?

Basically..... Yes. Japan managed to kick out Spain from Asia, took the German Micronesia/Marianas in the first Great War, bought Indochina and DEI, fought the Pacific War with US (with no consequences), and then betrayed the UK by invading Hong Kong and Malaya. After all that, Germany did not bother with the invasion of their own lands, and the US is leaving Japan alone for now.
 
The post-WWI period was especially...peculiar.

The US fleet during this TL's WWI was superior to Japan's entire navy with powerful British support and the German fleet even more powerful yet shortly after the war ended in Europe an overwhelming task force did not show up to deliver terms to Japan...and we all know just how easy going and forgiving the US and/or Germany were not at this time.
 
The post-WWI period was especially...peculiar.

The US fleet during this TL's WWI was superior to Japan's entire navy with powerful British support and the German fleet even more powerful yet shortly after the war ended in Europe an overwhelming task force did not show up to deliver terms to Japan...and we all know just how easy going and forgiving the US and/or Germany were not at this time.

You are correct there! Japan's reckoning will come, but it may be delayed for some time. The US has now saddled itself with integrating the CSA back into the Union and after 80 years of independence, the South is not going to go quietly!
 
I always had trouble understanding what the hell was going on with Japan in the series. I always assummed that Japan was operating with impunity, with no western power really concerned about them. Am I interpreting that wrong?

Not so much that Japan was operating with impunity, the US in that series did push them back around midway, but when the CSA is invading and taking down Pittsburgh, priorities tend to refocus on the more dangerous, and much closer, enemy at hand, than the enemy on the other side of the planet. Same thing for the British and French, not that they didn't want to deal with Japan, but that having German bombers over London and Paris well, makes what happens in the Pacific theater slightly less pressing.
 
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