Another interesting postwar conflict might be the not inconsiderable amount of influence Confederate expatriates will have in the rest of the world, far from the long arm of the USA. (This is especially true if Texas does get reunited with the USA, since that's one place they wouldn't be able to go). If ex-Confeds flee to South Africa, they might be able to have an interesting influence on that nation's politics. Or, perhaps some Confederate war criminals who got away could flee to Japan? I'm sure Tokyo would love to have them. We could see ex-commandants of concentration camps running prisons in Japanese-occupied China, or acting as some kind of elite anti-partisan unit for the Japanese. Or, depending on how dark the German regime gets, we could see them go there, running camps for "politicals" in Eastern Europe... while that might be a stretch, I could see it if tensions between the US and Germany get bad enough.
Timeline 191 – Possible Postwar Intrigues, Scandals, and Conflicts?
- Thread starter Cire
- Start date
MaxGerke01
Banned
When it comes to Tl-191 the one thing I would eat my hat about is if the US and Germany ever got into any real sort of long term conflict with each other. It was hinted at in the books between GWI and GWII and didnt happen and it wont happen post GWII either. The fact is that the interests and goals of the US and Germany are just too similar to bring the two into conflict or even opposite sides about most anything. There is also the fact that the OTL special relationship that the US has with the UK is between the US and Germany in Tl-191. Simply put the US just likes Germany too much for all of its past help putting the US on the footing it needed to beat its hated enemy the CSA. Not to mention Germany has beaten the US's hated European enemies of Britain ,France and Russia (to a lesser extent). Conversely the Germans would not get on the US's bad side by doing something so unnecessary as elevating Freemdomites into any positions of power. It could happen with South Africa or Japan or the Entente or to have an OTL analogue even South America but not Germany.....
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I don't see an American-German conflict developing immediately after the war, but once Japan is out of the picture I think it becomes a real possibility.
If history in our own timeline has taught us anything it is that socialism = slavery, and that socialist movements are invariably taken over by a cadre of self-serving people who have no interests in improving the lives of the workers. When most Soviet citizens had to stand in line for potatoes, Nikita Khrushchev gorged himself on caviar. Look at pictures of the Great Chairman Mao taken during the famines of the late 1950s and early 1960s. Mao became morbidly obese while tens of millions of his country men died from starvation. The people at the top of the socialist power structure typically get to the top because they are the cruelest most maniacal people around. All you have to do is take a look at what Pol Pot did in Cambodia, or what Castro did in Cuba, and they (mass genocide in Cambodia, and thousands of political prisoners in Cuba) then ask yourself, why wouldn't socialists be willing to play dirty if they thought it would give them absolute power? (By any means necessary) Most likely the Socialists in the 191 universe would be willing to play along within the confines of a democratic system, so long as it suited their means, but once they glimpsed an opportunity to seize power and to declare a one party system, they would do it in a heart beat.
I think that a lot of the ex-Confederates might end up in Australia. The reason is, Australia will no longer have the British Empire to support it militarily, and perhaps a newly independent Australian government would want to attract people who have real life experience in leading and conducting warfare.
I also don't see the US and Germany sinking into a conflict anytime immediately after the war. Most likely Russia would be completely broken after the war, and would be ripe for some sort of a revolution. With Russia, and possibly China, transformed into some sort of rogue states, perhaps the US and Germany might be forced to come closer to together, just as the US and UK did in early years of our own cold war.
I can see you want to make your partisan argument ranting about Commies marching for the streets and similar but, frankly, this is not the case, this is not the place. Firstly historically socialist Goverments had been in power in many countries, as France, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Brazil, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands and many others, without killing anyone or breaking the democratic principles. If you want compare them or Eugene Debs with some lunatic Cambodian peasant leader you can but honestly the comparison doesn't stand.
Secondly TL-191 is an alternative history timeline, with all different mechanisms and evolutions: for example in TL-191 it was Lincoln to introduce Socialism in US and to make it mainstream and if you want to compare Lincoln with Pol Pot you can return to Dixie just now. Moreover Turtledove explains clearly as Socialist Party becomes a mainstream party: after Sinclair and fictional Blackford, they elect Al Smith, that IOTL was to the right of FDR, then in 1944 their VP candidate is James Curly, head of Boston Irish political machine, so Socialists clearly evolve from a radical party to a more governing one.
Thirdly and most important, this an alternate history forum and this is a thread about Turledove's TL-191: if you want to keep your ranting about Commies who secretly plot to overthrow democracy within normal parties (and I'm forcing me to avoid explicit political issues, as all this sounds me very familiar with current US political climate) go to Chat and best wishes. Maybe you can find some other Bircherists with which bragging about how you know the Commies secrets, but again this is not the case, this is not the place. If you want say something about the TL-191 theme you can, if all you can say is political talking points go to Chat and good luck. Period.
lol
I'd recommend you take the red scare bait somewhere else. It isn't needed here.
Anyways here's my take on a post-war Presidents list
33. Charles W. LaFollette (Socialist) (1942-1945)
34. Thomas Dewey (Democratic) (1945-1953 )
35. Charles W. LaFollette (Socialist) (1953-1957)
36. Irving Morrell (Democratic) (1957-1965)
37. Hubert H. Humphrey Jr. (Socialist) (1965-1966) †
38. Warren G. Magnuson (Socialist) (1966-1969)
39. Joshua Blackford (Socialist) (1969-1977)
40. Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. (Democratic) (1977-1985)
41. Arvo Halberg (Socialist) (1985-1993)
42. Carl Martin (Democratic) (1993-2001)
43. Joseph R. Biden (Democratic) (2001-2009)
44. Bernard Sanders (Socialist) (2009-2017
45. John Kerry (Democratic) (2017-)
†Assasinated
33. Charles W. LaFollette (Socialist) (1942-1945)
34. Thomas Dewey (Democratic) (1945-1953 )
35. Charles W. LaFollette (Socialist) (1953-1957)
36. Irving Morrell (Democratic) (1957-1965)
37. Hubert H. Humphrey Jr. (Socialist) (1965-1966) †
38. Warren G. Magnuson (Socialist) (1966-1969)
39. Joshua Blackford (Socialist) (1969-1977)
40. Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. (Democratic) (1977-1985)
41. Arvo Halberg (Socialist) (1985-1993)
42. Carl Martin (Democratic) (1993-2001)
43. Joseph R. Biden (Democratic) (2001-2009)
44. Bernard Sanders (Socialist) (2009-2017
45. John Kerry (Democratic) (2017-)
†Assasinated
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Was it ever established what the platform of the surviving Republican Party was? It’s apparently still kicking in the Midwestern states and apparently lefty enough to win the traditionally Socialist Wisconsin in 1944
Thanks for proving my point for me. Socialists always try to tell others what they may or may not talk about, even when they do not have the authority to do so. It is a free country, so I will say whatever I want, to whomever I want, even if a few leftists get hurt feelings in the process.
Nice try but, France, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Brazil, Italy, Belgium, and the Netherlands have always had capitalist economies, they have never engaged in collectivism, and they were never declared to be socialist countries by the people living in them. The only possible exception might be East Germany, but look at what happened when the East German people were given a chance to change their country, they tossed out the communists.
In my opinion, socialism is the most evil, vile, and corrupt system ever imagined by the mind of mankind. Why? Because below is how it really works.
High IQ person: Just give up all your rights, agree to let us run everything for you, and then you'll be living in a worker's paradise where the workers control the means of production.
Low IQ person: Duhh, gee, that sounds great. Okay, you can run everything from now on.
High IQ person: You've made a great choice, and you won't have any complaints later on.
(One year later)
Low IQ person: Hey, you said that we'd control the means of production, and that we'd be living in a worker's paradise. How come I'm working six days a week, and I have to stand in line for hours to buy basic necessities? What gives?
High IQ person: Uh-uh! You gave up your right to complain when you agreed to let us rule everything for you, so now you have no complaints. Also, we never clearly stated what a worker's paradise would look like, so maybe this is at least partially your fault for being so naive and gullible.
I have immediate family who escaped Yugoslavia during the Cold War, so not really interested in hearing a lecture from someone who has no real life experience in the area.
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You obviously have a bone to pick and aren’t interested in actually discussing the 191 universe.
I figured as much too. Wonder if the Socialists and Republicans would ever merge, if for no other reason then to prevent splitting the base and giving the Democratic Party another long unbroken streak of conservative dominance
Lol
Your preaching, strawmanning, and invoking IQ like its an argument isn't convincing anyone. We aren't interested in having a conversation about politics here, especially when you've shown a failure to understand the literal text of the book series this thread is about. The Socialists of TL-191 are not a hard left party (your caricature of them aside), they are a social democratic one at most, falling to the right of the otl Democrats on several occasions. If you're actually interested in discussing TL-191 I'd recommend you learn the difference and drop your political shouting in favour of actual discussion.
Probably
I doubt it. The Socialists have shown they're strong enough to win on their own, and I think they appeal to different groups at the end of the day. Temporary electoral alliances and local party mergers in places like the midwest and plains I think is a possibility though.
Can we not derail the thread? I'm enjoying it and don't want it locked.
DIscussion of Socialism should go in Chat. We don't want Ian or CalBear shutting this down.
DIscussion of Socialism should go in Chat. We don't want Ian or CalBear shutting this down.
I remember in David bar Elias' After the End, he became the Democratic candidate, and I got a laugh out of imagining how Flora would've hit the roof when she found out!
In all seriousness, I look forward to reading it! Best of luck!
Yeah I’m going to be taking him in a very different direction. Having him as a Democrat is unironically one of my least favourite parts of ATE. As for Flora, she’s still around as a force to be reckoned with, and she’ll be playing a big part in the wild ride of Blackford II.
My personal theory is that the US would essentially ethnically cleanse most of the Confederacy of it's white confederate populace. Completely or almost completely expel the non loyal populaces to one or two of the pre war CSA states that are seen as less valuable. Say Florida or South Carolina. Force the rest of the Confederate populace to move their at bayonet point. A lot of people would die but it'd be less "Holocaust" style genocide and more the mass expelling of Ethnic Germans from across Eastern Europe post WW2. The remaining Confederate "Reservations" wouldn't be really independent any time soon and would have any and all industry demolished or confiscated and dismantled. No real formal CSA armed forces would be allowed to exist and pretty much all the weaponry the US authorities could get their hands on would be confiscated. There'd be plenty of US garrisons to police the Confederates. It'd be awful in a lot of ways but I think it's the route they'd go over trying to police the entire former Confederacy. Easier to just have to police and control a state or two. After expelling the White Confederate populace from much of the former CSA you'd likely have the land divided up into modern "Land Grants" like was done OTL in the West in the late 1800's. Offer a certain amount of land to any American willing to settle and farm. Nationalize or sell off the remaining industrial assets/mines/the like.
Their was talk late in the last book about essentially doing that to the rebellious Mormons. Namely expelling them to one of the less valuable Hawaiin islands. I could see the US similarly expelling Mormons to Alaska. Quite possibly they'd also expel any "disloyal" Canadians to Alaska, Nunavut, and the like. Perhaps expelling some of them over the border into Mexico or paying some country to accept Canadian, Confederate, Mormon refugees.