Timeline 191 – Possible Postwar Intrigues, Scandals, and Conflicts?

What sort of political scandals, intrigues, and conflicts might occur in the 191 version of America between the years 1944 and 1999?

I think that answers to this question would more or less have to be divided into three possible categories:

Category A: In this version of things a rump state version of the Confederate States manages to hold onto some degree of its independence.

Category B: In this version of reality the US manages to completely dissolve and to completely assimilate the Confederacy.

Category C: Some wild card event occurs, such as a possible military coup, and the US, CS, Mexico, and Canada are replaced by some sort of an American Republic which is not the US.

Personally, I favor option “B” in which some sort of a corrupt dark version of the Marshall Plan is used to slowly brainwash the former citizens of the Confederacy into accepting the Stars and Stripes. I imagine that such an undertaking would require the creation of a huge US govt. bureaucracy to carry out, and such bureaucracies are typically surrounded by all sorts of corruption, power struggles, and malfeasance.

Also, if the CS did manage to hang onto some degree of its own sovereignty, then what sort of under the table deals would it have to make with the US? Would such a compromise view as a scandal among the people of the Confederacy, and might such a scandal lead to the entire collapse of the postwar CS government?

And then in the last case, what if the elite ruling class in both the US and CS decide that representative democracy simply isn’t worth the trouble, and they decide to throw the baby out with the bathwater to implement a more authoritarian form of government? Or, anything else that might be a wildcard event?
 
Category A: In this version of things a rump state version of the Confederate States manages to hold onto some degree of its independence.
After 70 years of continuous warfare, millions of dead and the Population Reduction? No way is that happening.

What sort of political scandals, intrigues, and conflicts might occur in the 191 version of America between the years 1944 and 1999?
More than likely, the US would turn it's guns towards the Pacific and fight it's third war with Japan.
 
After 70 years of continuous warfare, millions of dead and the Population Reduction? No way is that happening.
I tend to agree. After 70 - 80 years of continous fighting, I think that the US would be willing to do just about anything in order to bring the unruly people of the Confederacy to heel, including flirting with the idea of a mass genocide if need be. - But what if a couple of US officials overseeing the occupation of the Confederacy started to be seen as becoming too powerful by the rest of the US govt.?
 
Off the top of my head:

Boris Lavochkin war crimes (although he probably never gets in trouble and his reputation is positive until many decades after his death)

Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr.'s prejudices (In OTL, he supported Hitler and his programs in Germany. Maybe his anti-Semitism may have prevented him from obtaining the presidency)

Herero and Namaqua Reduction (This may be used by the U.S. government as a hammer against Imperial German colonies in Africa.)

The Reunited National Party attempting to implement apartheid in South Africa (Basically what the Confederate Freedom Party did, except there would be no genocide)

Revelation on the Joint Committee's Plan to deal with Mormons in the USA (After the Population Reduction and future evaluations of Native American removals, the idea of forcibly removing a group of people looks less appealing)

The Armenian Reduction in Ottoman Turkey (That will certainly cause problems during international diplomacy)

Edward VIII's status as Emperor of Britain (Basically, TL-191's version of OTL's question of trying the Japanese Emperor for war crimes)

The Superbombings during the Second Great War (Questions about its ethical and moral use will always be debated)
 
Suffice to say that the United States reintegrating the former Confederate States (minus Texas) will make Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement look like a tea party. There is going to be an Equality Amendment that gives every race the right to vote and go into the same spaces. A lot of violent resistance will pop up in the South and it's going to take 20-30 years before they can readmitted as states in the Union. As for Canada they could become a satellite state of America or just annexed.
 
After 70 years of continuous warfare, millions of dead and the Population Reduction? No way is that happening.
To me this is exactly the reason why this is the most likely option. Too much history and time have passed between the two countries for them to ever mesh together again. Simply put there are too many people on both sides who wouldnt want it. Its true that the US could try and brainwash white Confederates into being good Americans but the very fact that this has to be done underlies why they wouldnt want to. The US would very much want the CSA brought to heel and would do what it takes to achieve that but it doesnt have to be done by forcing all of them back into the USA. There would be resistance to spending US blood and treasure on bringing people into the US who in American minds had shown their true colors and were far from Americans.Let them stay together if they want with the proviso that they never attempt anything close to what the Freedomites did and there are lots of ways to ensure that. This is the most peaceful option and it has the virtue of satisfying people on both sides. Americans dont have to worry about the CSA trying to invade or wipe out millions of people again and most of the CSA is left to its own business as long as it doesnt include doing those things perfect solution.
 
Suffice to say that the United States reintegrating the former Confederate States (minus Texas) will make Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement look like a tea party. There is going to be an Equality Amendment that gives every race the right to vote and go into the same spaces. A lot of violent resistance will pop up in the South and it's going to take 20-30 years before they can readmitted as states in the Union. As for Canada they could become a satellite state of America or just annexed.
I totally agree with this and I really think that most Americans would oppose trying to make them Americans again after all that happened. It would be another case of the CSA losing the war but winning the battle like in OTL post Reconstruction in that they are rewarded at the end of the day by being made Americans again and in the process having the US pay to rebuild their country and in some cases pay with the blood of their soldiers. The US was willing to do this with Germany OTL because of the perception of a greater menace by the Soviet Union but there isnt anything analogous to that in TL191. The US can very easily keep the CSA subdued without making it part of the USA again. As far as Canada as with Quebec it could very easily be an American satellite state. As far as removing the Mormons from Utah it wouldnt be pleasant but it is a far cry from the Population Reduction or even Indian Removal. The major difference is that unlike those two examples the Mormons would have a say in what happens. If they dont lead an armed rebellion against the US to make Utah an independent nation they would be left to their own devices exactly as they are OTL as Mormon Americans but if they try a fourth armed rebellion against the US its Sandwich Islands here we come. If Flora Hamburger could support that I could as well...
 
Last edited:
Even if the USA allowed a rump-CSA to exist in any way, they're still going to keep a heavy thumb on them. Virtually no military, US army bases all over the place ready to rollout at the first signs of rebellion, economic domination by yankee businesses, any Confederate laws needing the green light from Philadelphia, etc. A 191-USA might not be too far off the Soviet Union and their attempts to control of the Warsaw pact
 
This is how I see it except the Soviets thought anyone could be a good Soviet. After all thats happened I dont think Americans would extend that to most Confederates. Canadians maybe and even Mormons and Mexicans but not Confederates. But none of them have to be Americans to be controlled by the US.
Even if the USA allowed a rump-CSA to exist in any way, they're still going to keep a heavy thumb on them. Virtually no military, US army bases all over the place ready to rollout at the first signs of rebellion, economic domination by yankee businesses, any Confederate laws needing the green light from Philadelphia, etc. A 191-USA might not be too far off the Soviet Union and their attempts to control of the Warsaw pact
 
I reckon that enough Canadians will be... if not happy with the US, then not willing to try a third rebellion, because they really don't want to risk having Saktasoon superbombed. So, while the occupation might last twenty or so more years, (probably with more than a little help from the Republic of Quebec) the generation born post GWII will think of themselves as Americans first and Canadians second-- this obviously discounts the large number of American citizens who move up to Canada of their own free will. So, by the 1960s, I reckon the Canadian provinces will be admitted to the Union. Off the top of the head, this'll probably save the US close to a million soldiers.

As for the CSA, well, that's where the problems arise. I get the feeling that the USA really views the Confederates as different to them by 1944. And if the occupations of Houston and Kentucky interwar were anything to go by, the USA will have a guerilla war on its hands stretching from the Gulf of California to the Atlantic Ocean. The average American views the Southerners as the eternal enemy of their country. Thus, the South will be an awful backwater and a really shoddy place to live. Obviously, as Ohio, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia are reconstructed, the South will come dead-last in receiving aid (and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the US government conscripts Southern civilians into labour units to rebuild the North). All this to say, the South will be a mess for a long time, and its people will still hate the Yankees in 1970 just like they did in 1870. Sadly, I don't think the Destruction survivors will be treated very well by the US government- the prevailing view seemed to be they're only... The US government will be too cash-strapped to provide the survivors payment, although granting them a ticket north and the vote might happen (the US would want people settling in Canada, Utah, and even devastated Ohio).

But the thing is, I imagine the North will sit on them forever if need be. TL-191 USA has seen two Great Wars on its home soil, the Midwest destroyed, and its capital nuked. The whole argument that "US society can't stomach high casualties" has been proven false. Ever since the Second Mexican War, the Remembrance ideology has made people venerate the military and think that "it's sweet and honourable to die for one's country". If Private John Smith from Flyover, Dakota gets blown up in the South by a Featherston Fizz in let's say, 1964, those who knew him will say "he did his duty, just like... (insert name of relative killed in GWII here)." Those Americans who advocate pulling out of the ex-CSA will be despised by much of the population-- as a matter of fact, now that I think about it, this could be an interesting bit of Turtledovian parallelism, young college students protesting to get out of the South. Who knows- that might develop into a counterculture analogue all its own.
As for the Republic of Texas, I don't see it lasting. President Dewey will inevitably see it as a "last bastion of Confederate nationalism", and worry that it'll set a bad precedent that the US is weak, and a "Republic of Carolina", or whatever, can be established with enough car bombs. If the Texan government doesn't vote to join the Union as a state by the end of 1945, Irving Morrel and Abner Dowling are going to get a fun new barrel park to test their latest machines in. What would make more sense- and be in keeping with Turtledove's parallelism- would be for Cuba to be given independence. It's not geographically contiguous to the rest of the US, and it's not seen as "Confederate"; ie, it's a different ethnicity to the Southern mainland, your average Confederate in the street wouldn't want to move there and probably wouldn't think of it much, but it'd be a safe place for those who really can't stand US occupation. If it's a choice between letting Cuba go or dealing with more people bombs, I know what I'd choose.
Sonora, Chihuahua, and Baja California (I think the US conquered it in The Grapple- no?) can be integrated pretty quickly, probably by the mid-to-late 50s.

As for the Mormons, well, this is where the US is really going to take the gloves off. Like the Canadians, there aren't many Mormons to begin with, but unlike the Canadians, the US hates them, views them as treasonous, backstabbing, polygamists who want nothing more than to set off a car bomb in the middle of a Remembrance Day parade. The US tried to give the Mormons statehood under Al Smith; look what that gave them. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they went "full Featherston" here, and ethnically cleansed the Mormons.* Dumping them on the Sandwich Islands only invites them to rise up and look to Japan. The US public won't shed a tear.

Japan will most likely blunder its way into a war with the US before too long, and unlike in the '30s, the US will do a proper job. Either an IJN vessel and a USN one have an... unfortunate incident, or Japan does something equally provocative. My money is that it'll happen before 1980. TL-191 Japan has everything it could ask for, and TTL's leaders in Tokyo probably think they can do anything. When Japan and the US do go to war, Japan'll get curbstomped like OTL, but it will be bloody. Unless the war breaks out very early, think before 1950, both sides will have superbombs and won't be afraid to use them. If the war takes place in the 1960s, both sides will have enough ICBMs for this thing to go in a horrible direction. Think Japan getting blasted back to the Stone Age, but the West Coast of the US being obliterated. But assuming total nuclear holocaust is avoided, the US will win. Japan will no doubt foster an uprising in the CSA, which will tie one hand behind the American's back. But although TTL's Japan will be stronger than OTL's in the Pacific War, it'll still win eventually. Personally, I'd like to imagine Sam Carsten's exec Pat Cooley would be an admiral or something in the conflict, and perhaps Dowling's adjutant will be a general. America will try to establish puppets in the former Japanese Empire, but without much luck, as it'll be too busy close to home. Nuclear bombing will make an occupation of the Home Islands unnecessary.

Things like the space race and an alt-Great Society will be seriously delayed or butterflied altogether by the expenses facing the US. Personally, I doubt a serious Cold War with Germany will erupt- even if the two are competitors and dislike one another, there's an ocean separating their power blocs (whereas the US had ground troops and allies right next to the Warsaw Pact IOTL.) There won't be enough African-Americans left for a Civil Rights Movement to matter much any which way (although I expect President Dewey would enforce desegregation very early on, to present an unmistakeable message that times were changing).

All this will mean a tight squeeze on the US population. Universal conscription will last until the present day, most likely, with taxes much higher. Economics isn't my strong suit, but I'm sure the GDP per capita numbers will be much lower ITTL. If a martial culture persists for long enough, and especially if there's some sort of nuclear exchange with Japan, we could see a coup in the US, but frankly I doubt it.

Ultimately, I see TL-191 USA bearing the heavy load of holding its empire together at whatever cost.

*Obviously not condoning atrocities/ethnic cleansing/war crimes of any kind.
 
I reckon that enough Canadians will be... if not happy with the US, then not willing to try a third rebellion, because they really don't want to risk having Saktasoon superbombed. So, while the occupation might last twenty or so more years, (probably with more than a little help from the Republic of Quebec) the generation born post GWII will think of themselves as Americans first and Canadians second-- this obviously discounts the large number of American citizens who move up to Canada of their own free will. So, by the 1960s, I reckon the Canadian provinces will be admitted to the Union. Off the top of the head, this'll probably save the US close to a million soldiers.

As for the CSA, well, that's where the problems arise. I get the feeling that the USA really views the Confederates as different to them by 1944. And if the occupations of Houston and Kentucky interwar were anything to go by, the USA will have a guerilla war on its hands stretching from the Gulf of California to the Atlantic Ocean. The average American views the Southerners as the eternal enemy of their country. Thus, the South will be an awful backwater and a really shoddy place to live. Obviously, as Ohio, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia are reconstructed, the South will come dead-last in receiving aid (and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the US government conscripts Southern civilians into labour units to rebuild the North). All this to say, the South will be a mess for a long time, and its people will still hate the Yankees in 1970 just like they did in 1870. Sadly, I don't think the Destruction survivors will be treated very well by the US government- the prevailing view seemed to be they're only... The US government will be too cash-strapped to provide the survivors payment, although granting them a ticket north and the vote might happen (the US would want people settling in Canada, Utah, and even devastated Ohio).

But the thing is, I imagine the North will sit on them forever if need be. TL-191 USA has seen two Great Wars on its home soil, the Midwest destroyed, and its capital nuked. The whole argument that "US society can't stomach high casualties" has been proven false. Ever since the Second Mexican War, the Remembrance ideology has made people venerate the military and think that "it's sweet and honourable to die for one's country". If Private John Smith from Flyover, Dakota gets blown up in the South by a Featherston Fizz in let's say, 1964, those who knew him will say "he did his duty, just like... (insert name of relative killed in GWII here)." Those Americans who advocate pulling out of the ex-CSA will be despised by much of the population-- as a matter of fact, now that I think about it, this could be an interesting bit of Turtledovian parallelism, young college students protesting to get out of the South. Who knows- that might develop into a counterculture analogue all its own.
As for the Republic of Texas, I don't see it lasting. President Dewey will inevitably see it as a "last bastion of Confederate nationalism", and worry that it'll set a bad precedent that the US is weak, and a "Republic of Carolina", or whatever, can be established with enough car bombs. If the Texan government doesn't vote to join the Union as a state by the end of 1945, Irving Morrel and Abner Dowling are going to get a fun new barrel park to test their latest machines in. What would make more sense- and be in keeping with Turtledove's parallelism- would be for Cuba to be given independence. It's not geographically contiguous to the rest of the US, and it's not seen as "Confederate"; ie, it's a different ethnicity to the Southern mainland, your average Confederate in the street wouldn't want to move there and probably wouldn't think of it much, but it'd be a safe place for those who really can't stand US occupation. If it's a choice between letting Cuba go or dealing with more people bombs, I know what I'd choose.
Sonora, Chihuahua, and Baja California (I think the US conquered it in The Grapple- no?) can be integrated pretty quickly, probably by the mid-to-late 50s.

As for the Mormons, well, this is where the US is really going to take the gloves off. Like the Canadians, there aren't many Mormons to begin with, but unlike the Canadians, the US hates them, views them as treasonous, backstabbing, polygamists who want nothing more than to set off a car bomb in the middle of a Remembrance Day parade. The US tried to give the Mormons statehood under Al Smith; look what that gave them. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they went "full Featherston" here, and ethnically cleansed the Mormons.* Dumping them on the Sandwich Islands only invites them to rise up and look to Japan. The US public won't shed a tear.

Japan will most likely blunder its way into a war with the US before too long, and unlike in the '30s, the US will do a proper job. Either an IJN vessel and a USN one have an... unfortunate incident, or Japan does something equally provocative. My money is that it'll happen before 1980. TL-191 Japan has everything it could ask for, and TTL's leaders in Tokyo probably think they can do anything. When Japan and the US do go to war, Japan'll get curbstomped like OTL, but it will be bloody. Unless the war breaks out very early, think before 1950, both sides will have superbombs and won't be afraid to use them. If the war takes place in the 1960s, both sides will have enough ICBMs for this thing to go in a horrible direction. Think Japan getting blasted back to the Stone Age, but the West Coast of the US being obliterated. But assuming total nuclear holocaust is avoided, the US will win. Japan will no doubt foster an uprising in the CSA, which will tie one hand behind the American's back. But although TTL's Japan will be stronger than OTL's in the Pacific War, it'll still win eventually. Personally, I'd like to imagine Sam Carsten's exec Pat Cooley would be an admiral or something in the conflict, and perhaps Dowling's adjutant will be a general. America will try to establish puppets in the former Japanese Empire, but without much luck, as it'll be too busy close to home. Nuclear bombing will make an occupation of the Home Islands unnecessary.

Things like the space race and an alt-Great Society will be seriously delayed or butterflied altogether by the expenses facing the US. Personally, I doubt a serious Cold War with Germany will erupt- even if the two are competitors and dislike one another, there's an ocean separating their power blocs (whereas the US had ground troops and allies right next to the Warsaw Pact IOTL.) There won't be enough African-Americans left for a Civil Rights Movement to matter much any which way (although I expect President Dewey would enforce desegregation very early on, to present an unmistakeable message that times were changing).

All this will mean a tight squeeze on the US population. Universal conscription will last until the present day, most likely, with taxes much higher. Economics isn't my strong suit, but I'm sure the GDP per capita numbers will be much lower ITTL. If a martial culture persists for long enough, and especially if there's some sort of nuclear exchange with Japan, we could see a coup in the US, but frankly I doubt it.

Ultimately, I see TL-191 USA bearing the heavy load of holding its empire together at whatever cost.

*Obviously not condoning atrocities/ethnic cleansing/war crimes of any kind.
I agree with what you say here except for the part about the Destruction survivors and the Mormons. I really think the US has learned something from the Destruction. It also has lots of deserved guilt for not doing more about it. Therefore I think the US would treat Destruction survivors very well. For one thing black residents of the US proper would have things better than ever with room for improvement of course but that would come. As far as Destruction survivors they would have some options. They could move to the USA but they could also stay in the CSA and their rights would have to be respected or the CSA gets in heap big trouble. If there were more black people in the CSA a Must and Shall type situation might develop where blacks are actually at the top of the heap in the CSA because they are thought of as very loyal to the USA. This is probably the actual case in lots of individual situations but tragically there are too few blacks left for it to be wide spread. The black Israel analogue used to be popular but I dont think that would happen since again there are so few blacks left but if it did Cuba,Haiti or Puerto Rico are options But I think the life of blacks in North America improves greatly post SGW and especially for Destruction survivors. Its a matter of honor and I think the US would do at least as much as West Germany did OTL.
On a related note I strongly disagree that the US would do a population reduction against Mormons. The opposition to this would be thunderous and thats just from Americans but imagine how hypocritical and pathetic the US would look roundly and rightly villanizing the CSA for the Destruction and then turning around and doing the same itself? Never. Sandwich Islands may not be perfect but its a better option than population reduction. There are other options -maybe not all go to Sandwich Islands-some to Canada or the CSA or Mexico or anywhere but no population reduction. For the US to have any moral authority it simply could not be allowed....
 
Too much history and time have passed between the two countries for them to ever mesh together again. Simply put there are too many people on both sides who wouldnt want it
But, after the end of the Second Great War, only one side is left holding all the big guns, and that is the US side. Also, why wouldn't the US simply depopulate the people living in the former Confederacy who are giving them trouble, and later replace them with other people? After all, it appears that the 191 universe is a universe completely devoid of morality, General Custer killed off a lot of Indians, Featherston killed off a lot of people, the Turks killed the Armenians, so why wouldn't the US simply kill off huge swaths of the CS population, and maybe blame it on a crop failure?

Also, if the US and CS go onto coexist side by side after the Second Great War, then how do they avoid getting into a nuclear war with one another? Seems that maybe it is simply to dangerous for the CS to exist, and maybe that it needs to be ended at all costs, including mass murder. -- But it is fiction, anything can happen.
 
US army bases all over the place ready to rollout at the first signs of rebellion, economic domination by yankee businesses, any Confederate laws needing the green light from Philadelphia, etc. A 191-USA might not be too far off the Soviet Union and their attempts to control of the Warsaw pact
I agree, I think that a postwar independent CS would have to be something like what Mongolia was to the USSR in our time line.
 
But anyway you look at, independent Confederacy, or no independent Confederacy, the postwar US would be a much more powerful country than it was just a few years earlier, and with power comes corruption and controversy. Maybe US occupation forces might be stretched tight immediately after the war, but the US could deal with that problem in various ways. Also, if the US did decide to play extremely dirty in the occupied and defeated CS, then who would be in a position to say anything about it?

Also, imagine for a minute that you're an adult living in the defeated Confederacy. Maybe you have a family and a few children to look after. In the long run, what is going to be more important to you, trying to overthrow the US occupation, or trying to make sure that your own children have enough foot to eat, and that they have shoes on their feet?
 
But, after the end of the Second Great War, only one side is left holding all the big guns, and that is the US side. Also, why wouldn't the US simply depopulate the people living in the former Confederacy who are giving them trouble, and later replace them with other people? After all, it appears that the 191 universe is a universe completely devoid of morality, General Custer killed off a lot of Indians, Featherston killed off a lot of people, the Turks killed the Armenians, so why wouldn't the US simply kill off huge swaths of the CS population, and maybe blame it on a crop failure?































Also, if the US and CS go onto coexist side by side after the Second Great War, then how do they avoid getting into a nuclear war with one another? Seems that maybe it is simply to dangerous for the CS to exist, and maybe that it needs to be ended at all costs, including mass murder. -- But it is fiction, anything can happen.






Well first of all there is no way the US would allow the CSA to have superbombs again . They would be watched and inspected frequently to stop this from happening and if there was an attempt it would be squashed very quickly. While there isnt a Cuban Missile Crisis ittl perhaps in the 1960s there could be the Carolina Missile Crisis where the CSA is caught trying to develop superbombs and its quickly squashed. As far as total population reductions being accepted as the new normal I really dont agree with that.The books make it very clear with the Destruction and even with the Armenian genocide that this is not acceptable behavior. What is the point of trying at least the leading Confederates for war crimes and crimes against humanity then executing them if not to say that this is unacceptable?



It would have been like if in OTL Truman had gone into Germany and wiped out the Germans for what they did during WW2 -completely odious and hypocritical. Where does the idea come from that total population reduction is now acceptable as a policy option when the books took pains to demonstrate how wrong it was and how the US was outraged by it and took steps to end it when it found out the CSA was doing it ? The US has blood on its hands with the Indians but even that bloody affair was not an attempted total population reduction. The US simply wouldnt do such a thing iittl and as things stand neither would the Germans. As for the British,French ,Russians and Japanese well we will see....
 
Last edited:
Off the top of my head:



Boris Lavochkin war crimes (although he probably never gets in trouble and his reputation is positive until many decades after his death)



Herero and Namaqua Reduction (This may be used by the U.S. government as a hammer against Imperial German colonies in Africa.)



Revelation on the Joint Committee's Plan to deal with Mormons in the USA (After the Population Reduction and future evaluations of Native American removals, the idea of forcibly removing a group of people looks less appealing)



The Armenian Reduction in Ottoman Turkey (That will certainly cause problems during international diplomacy)
So what am I missing here as these things seem a little contradictory at best ? I know we are talking about the US versus Imperial Germany and the Ottoman Empire but still. What the CSA did with the population reduction of the Destruction during the Second Great War is not a new normal that would be implemented as a policy option by the frankly more civilized side of the international community. Such things are regarded as war crimes and crimes against humanity and even without a UN organization nations would not feel free to implement such horrendous actions again. Where is this coming from ?
 
I don’t see how the US could manage to keep the former Confederacy, Deseret, Canada, and the Caribbean all under heal and integrate them. Unlike OTL, the USA was badly damaged by the SGW and won’t have the many resources to spare. Also, many Americans would refuse to be associated with the Population Reduction because of the annexation with the former Confederacy. After being independent for more than 80 years there’s going to be more differences than similarities. And given how the US military is acting in the post-SGW towards the CSA, Mormons, and Canada (Which might make OTL Soviets blush), it would not surprise me if there was a TTL equivalent of the Morgenthau Plan implemented with the former CSA divided in two or three parts, de-Industrialized, and de-militarized.
 
I don’t see how the US could manage to keep the former Confederacy, Deseret, Canada, and the Caribbean all under heal and integrate them. Unlike OTL, the USA was badly damaged by the SGW and won’t have the many resources to spare. Also, many Americans would refuse to be associated with the Population Reduction because of the annexation with the former Confederacy. After being independent for more than 80 years there’s going to be more differences than similarities. And given how the US military is acting in the post-SGW towards the CSA, Mormons, and Canada (Which might make OTL Soviets blush), it would not surprise me if there was a TTL equivalent of the Morgenthau Plan implemented with the former CSA divided in two or three parts, de-Industrialized, and de-militarized.
Canada and Utah won't take much effort to keep or assimilate. The Confederacy would take more, but keeping and assimilating it is doable.

In 1914 Canada had a population of 7,879,000. Subtracting Quebec's 1911 population (I couldn't find the 1914 number) yields 5,873,224. In Filling the Gaps, Craigo suggested that 15% of Canada's population was mobilized in the First Great War. In OTL, about 10% of Canada's mobilized soldiers were killed. Assuming that a similar percentage perished in GW1, then the total goes down to 5,785,125. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number killed were even higher. In the OTL 1920 US Census, NY state, Pennsylvania, Illinois and Ohio all had populations bigger than 5.75 million. NYC alone had a population of 5.6 million. Using the standard rule of one soldier for every fifty inhabitants, Canada needs only about 115,000 soldiers to hold it after GW1. Starting after 1917, anyone who immigrates to Canada (from either south of the 49th parallel or elsewhere) is unlikely to be sympathetic to any Canadian Independence movement. Over time, the population composed of those in Canada before 1917, and their descendants will decrease. Eventually military rule in occupied Canada will end as the former provinces are admitted as states. Once the Canadians have statehood and citizenship, I would think that all but the most extreme Canadian rebels would put down their guns. There is also the fact that post GW2 no foreign power will support Canadian independence. I am not aware of any insurgency that succeeded without foreign support.

In TL 191 there are at most 250,000 Mormons by the end of GW2. They aren't going to be a problem in Hawaii (since they have no weapons and no foreign support). Also, I don't think many Americans would oppose the forced relocation of Mormons. In OTL, few opposed the internment of Japanese Americans. And while Mormons aren't the victims of racism, the US (both in OTL and in TL191) has a long history of anti-Mormon prejudice. Also, Mormon extremists did use suicide bombs against civilian targets. Mormons will have few advocates among Americans.

The Confederacy, being the most populous of the three, would certainly be the hardest to integrate. But after four destructive wars, few Yankees would be interested in allowing an independent Confederacy. So there would be an occupation of the South. How successful would a Confederate insurgency be? Probably not very. The rebels would have no foreign support an the only weapons would be those left over from the war and those they can steal from the Yankees. How much support would they have? I doubt much. In 1945-1946 the Allies treated Germans absolutely horribly - uprooting millions, economically exploiting the country, etc. The treatment of Germans was probably overall worse than any treatment the Southerners would get. There would be reprisal killings, sure, but would there be ethnic cleansing that would kill hundreds of thousands? If the Germans didn't rebel, why would the Confederates? At best I could see something like the OTL Forest Brothers, and like the Forest Brothers, they'd be defeated by the early 1950s at the latest.

Now, I suppose the Yankees could decide to go all Morgenthau on the South, or even worse. But that seems unlikely. Since there goal is to annex the South, destroying its economy and people would be beyond moronic. Government and military officials would surely realize, like in OTL, that a Carthaginian peace is good for no one. I think that any "de-Freedomization" campaign would be ended after a few years, like OTL's denazification. Instead, propaganda would emphasize that Yankees and Southerners are the same people, and that the Freedom Party was a minority, who misled the majority. I could see a "Clean Army" myth also develop.

After the population reduction, the South will have a massive labor shortage. The South will desperately need immigrants, and immigrants will surely come. Now, there will be a nativist backlash (as all immigration waves are accompanied by), but, given the economic situation, I doubt it would be very successful. The popularization of air conditioning and cheap living costs will probably also result in Yankee migration south like in OTL. By 2020, I wouldn't be surprised if most of Dixie's population is composed of immigrants and transplanted Yankees and their descendants.

While there were may differences between North and South, there were many more similarities. They speak the same language, follow the same religions, have the same history (until 1861), revere the same Founding Fathers, have the same political values, celebrate the same holidays, etc. After a while, the former Confederate States would be readmitted as states, and it would be difficult to tell that the USA was once two countries. I think even among the descendants of former Confederate whites there would be little interest in secession.

Annexing the Caribbean wouldn't be too big of an issue either, since the those islands have and had small populations. The two largest the US would annex, Cuba and Jamaica, had populations of 4,778,583 (OTL 1943) and 1,403,000 (1950). And, at least in the Bahamas, Bermuda and Cuba, the US would be very popular after the war, since Yankees liberated those islands from Confederate occupation.
 
I don’t see how the US could manage to keep the former Confederacy, Deseret, Canada, and the Caribbean all under heal and integrate them. Unlike OTL, the USA was badly damaged by the SGW and won’t have the many resources to spare. Also, many Americans would refuse to be associated with the Population Reduction because of the annexation with the former Confederacy. After being independent for more than 80 years there’s going to be more differences than similarities. And given how the US military is acting in the post-SGW towards the CSA, Mormons, and Canada (Which might make OTL Soviets blush), it would not surprise me if there was a TTL equivalent of the Morgenthau Plan implemented with the former CSA divided in two or three parts, de-Industrialized, and de-militarized.
I agree very much.The US wants to avoid the you annex it you own it policy .If the Confederates are made Americans wholesale then the Destruction becomes an American action and the the US doesnt want to go there. There are way too many people on both sides who think that the two countries are separate and should remain separate, But that applies to the US side as much if not more. Why would the Americans want to give the Gonfederates a pass and let them have the easy way off by annexation especially when there is no outside threat like the Soviet Union which is the real reason the West let Germany off so easily post WW2 in OTL ? If it wasnt for that threat they would have been much harsher. There is no such outside threat in TL191 and a Morganthau type plan is perfectly feasible for the CSA-its certainly no more than they deserve. There is nothing as odious as a clean army myth being allowed to develop for the CSA and I think that what DeFreedomification is done would focus on this very much.
 
Last edited:
So what am I missing here as these things seem a little contradictory at best ? I know we are talking about the US versus Imperial Germany and the Ottoman Empire but still. What the CSA did with the population reduction of the Destruction during the Second Great War is not a new normal that would be implemented as a policy option by the frankly more civilized side of the international community. Such things are regarded as war crimes and crimes against humanity and even without a UN organization nations would not feel free to implement such horrendous actions again. Where is this coming from ?
I was just listing possibilities.

Some of them may be contradictory when compared to each other.
 
Top