How Is This TL So far on a Scale of 1-5

  • 1 - Alien Space Bats

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • 2 - Generally Implausible

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3 - Moderately Plausible

    Votes: 14 36.8%
  • 4- Generally Plausible

    Votes: 18 47.4%
  • 5- Very Plausible

    Votes: 5 13.2%

  • Total voters
  • Poll closed .
Chapter One: All or Nothing

The issue had dated back to an amendment proposed to the Articles of Confederation April 18, 1783, which would have changed the basis for determining the wealth of each state. The proposal suggested that taxes "shall be supplied by the several colonies in proportion to the number of inhabitants of every age, sex, and quality, except Indians not paying taxes", which the Southern states (Georgia, the Carolinas, Maryland, and Virginia) immediately objected to. The formula would have included slaves, who were generally viewed as property with regard to calculating taxes. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the Southern states would be taxed "according to their numbers and their wealth conjunctly, while the northern would be taxed on numbers only". Benjamin Harrison proposed a compromise that would count slaves as half a person and several New Englanders proposed three fourths, but neither was overtly popular. Congress settled on the three-fifths ratio which was proposed by James Madison. However, this amendment failed as New York and New Hampshire rejected it and it thus fell short of the unanimous approval required to amend the Articles of Confederation.

By the time of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, it was unanimously accepted that representation in the House of Representatives would be proportionate to state populations. This raised a problem as slaves could note vote. Delegates from the north opposed to slavery wanted only free inhabitants of each state to count (even if it meant abolishing slavery and giving freed slaves the right to vote) while southern delegates supportive of slavery wanted slaves to count in their numbers for increased representation in the House and Electoral College. The three-fifths ratio was proposed on June 11, 1787 and initially agreed to by nine states and two opposed. was debated at length between July 9 and 13, and was then voted down by the Convention members. A few southern delegates then proposed full representation for their slave population. Nevertheless, the three-fifths ratio was brought back to the table and the vote was split right down the middle five states to five.

After weeks of contentious debate, the compromise continued creating a split down the middle until, finally, the delegates from southern sates walked out of the Convention. Those from Georgia and the Carolinas were successful as they were encouraged by South Carolinian representative Charles Pinckney. While many Virginia and Maryland delegates, including Thomas Jefferson tried to leave, George Washington and James Madison blocked all their attempts. It then became agreed upon that "all other persons" would not be counted. No state would be allowed to use slaves for additional representation in government. The tax on slaves, however, would be two-fifths of that of other property, inducing Virginia and Maryland not to try again to walk out of the Convention. This would not be the end of the general discontent in those two states, though.

Once all that was taken care of, Article 9 of the Constitution was written, with the first clause preventing Congress from passing laws restricting importing slaves into the United States prior to 1808 and abolishing slavery prior to 1828. With Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina gone, the ratification of the Constitution required seven of the ten states to do so. Delaware was the first state to ratify the Constitution, doing so on December 7, 1787. Pennsylvania and New Jersey followed by before the end of the calendar year. In 1788, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Maryland followed suit. On June 21, 1788, the Constitution became the law of the land upon New Hampshire’s ratification. Two of the largest states - Virginia and New York - ratified it in the summer of 1788 (June and July respectively) facing strong opposition. Rhode Island was the last to ratify the Constitution, on May 29, 1789. The United States of America was officially up for business, with Philadelphia chosen as its permanent capital.

View attachment 535516

Note: I will be updating my CSA Victory timeline soon, it's just that I have found it harder to write than other chapters since I'm not particularly a war historian. Sorry for the wait.

Is it just me or does anybody else have a big wall of nothing until you highlight it? If so please fix I can't read what I can't even see.
The point of divergence for this timeline is great, it's not something that's done too much, as not many people have the South leave the Union earlier. The timeline is fairly detailed and comprehensive in information and it's delivery, the divergences that this timeline will experience will be interesting to explore. I'll certainly be watching this, I hope you have an easier time with this timeline than your last one, I can't wait for the next update to come out.
Is it just me or does anybody else have a big wall of nothing until you highlight it? If so please fix I can't read what I can't even see.

It's fine for me. At least on my mobile. I've just checked it.

Excellent chapter, by the way, @PGSBHurricane. Quite a lot of Independent South TLs I've read seem to have the country plunging from one war to another, so this makes for a rather refreshing change!
It's fine for me. At least on my mobile. I've just checked it.

Excellent chapter, by the way, @PGSBHurricane. Quite a lot of Independent South TLs I've read seem to have the country plunging from one war to another, so this makes for a rather refreshing change!
The people of the South May have wanted to plunge itself into a war with the USA but nobody in power was that stupid. If anything, Rutledge wanted to make sure things were running smoothly in the SAC first, even if that meant not pursuing hostility with the USA. He was a Federalist IOTL after all.
How are relations between the North and South? Because depending on how interactions during the first years of independence go I could see them being sworn enemies, wary respect or friends.
How are relations between the North and South? Because depending on how interactions during the first years of independence go I could see them being sworn enemies, wary respect or friends.
Right now, both countries are focused on institution building and making sure their own countries are running smoothly so they aren't too focused on each other. Portions of the USA are southern-sympathetic or southern-leaning and that could be problematic down the road though.
Chapter Six: Radical Revolutions, Reforms, and Revenge
Chapter Six: Radical Revolutions, Reforms, and Revenge

Initially, the French Revolution was relatively moderate and was local to France. That all changed in April 1792 when the newly elected Legislative Assembly declared war on Austria and Prussia in their goal to stamp out counterrevolutionary alliances and spread its ideals across Europe. Things turned radical when an extremist group of insurgents called Jacobins attacked the royal residence in Paris and arrested King Louis XVI on August 10, 1792. In September, insurrectionists massacred hundreds of supposed counterrevolutionaries and replaced the Legislative Assembly with the National Convention, proclaiming France as a republic and abolishing the monarchy. On January 21, 1793, the Convention convicted King Louis XVI of high treason and crimes against the state, sentencing him to death. His is wife, queen Marie-Antoinette, suffered the same fate that October.

Following the king’s execution, internal divisions within the National Convention plunged France into one of the most turbulent violent phases in its history. In June 1793, the extremist Jacobins took control of the National Convention from the more moderate Girondins. They instituted a series of radical reforms, including establishing a new calendar, eliminating Christianity within French borders, and guillotining alleged counterrevolutionaries. The latter became known as the Reign of Terror (la Terreur), lasting for 10 months and killing over 17,000 perceived enemies, many under the order from the draconian Maximilien Robespierre until his own execution on July 28, 1794. His death marked the start of the revolt against the Reign of Terror, known as the Thermidorian Reaction.

On August 22, 1795, the Girondin-dominated National Convention approved a new constitution which created France’s first bicameral legislature. A five member Director would hold executive power as appointed by Parliament. Die-hard royalists and radical revolutionaries immediately protested but were swiftly silenced by the French army under general Napoleon Bonaparte's leadership. The four short years the Directory was in power were riddled with corruption, inefficiency, and a financial crisis. By 1799, the Directors relied so heavily on the military to the point where military generals were ceded much of France's political power. On November 9, 1799, Bonaparte staged a coup d’état and abolished the Directory, appointing himself France’s first consul. This signified the official end of the French Revolution and the start of the Napoleonic Era.

The French Revolution had a cosmic impact around the world. To escape the political tension, thousands of French individuals, mostly men, emigrated from France for other parts of Europe and even North America. Despite fears of emigrants bringing plots with them to disrupt political order, most countries welcomed the French emigrants, even Great Britain. Meanwhile, the French Army was quite successful in Europe. By 1799, it conquered the Austrian Netherlands, the Dutch Republic, the German Rhine territories, Switzerland, and much of the Italian Peninsula. The Austrian Netherlands was annexed as a French province and the rest were turned into French puppet states. The result was profound French glory and nationalism, a large influx of money into France, and direct support to the French Army. Napolean became France's leading symbol for heroism.

The reaction to the French Revolution was extremely polarizing across the European continent. For instance, Britain supported France's constitutional monarchy but drew the line at the execution of King Louis XVI and the Reign of Terror. Subsequently, Britain funded and led a series of anti-French coalitions. In 1799, the Second Coalition, supported by Austria, the Ottoman Empire, and Russia, held the French back and trapped the French Army in Egypt. Napoleon escaped back to Paris in October 1799. The French Revolution swept numerous liberal ideas into the German states, especially the Rhineland, including the end of serfdom and a bunch of agrarian, economic, and legal reforms. The royal courts of Vienna and Berlin quickly denounced the execution of the French king and vilified the spread of liberty and equality, causing the disillusionment of the German middle class. In spite of no French contact, Denmark adopted liberal reforms in line with those spread by the Revolution. Agrarian reforms went so far as to create a new class of independent peasant freeholders. In Sweden, King Gustav III slowly weakened the nobility by creating a coalition with the middle class and promoted numerous social reforms. Upon his assassination in 1792, newly-crowned King Gustav IV Adolf bitterly opposed everything the Revolution and its supporters, so Sweden joined various coalitions against Napoleon.

The reaction rapidly spread to North America where both the North and South widely supported the early stages of the French Revolution. The king’s execution, however, turned the United States away and polarized the public of the Southern Confederation. Confederate President John Rutledge declared neutrality regarding European affairs, but Union President George Washington cracked down on French influence. ""Democratic Societies" began to form in 1793 upon King Louis’ execution began forming in 1793 to help aid support for the cause and were subsidized by French Ambassador Citizen Genet. Federalists led by Alexander Hamilton ridiculed these “democrats'' (who were the foundation for the eventual Republican Party) and George Washington denounced them as unrepublican. Anti-federalists (especially in the border states of Kentucky and Virginia) such as Thomas Jefferson favored an alliance with the French and pointed to the still-in-effect treaty with France from 1778. Their pleas were shot down by President George Washington. In the South, the 1778 Treaty led to much more contentious debate across the board, which Rutledge personally feared. While it was widely acknowledged that Great Britain was the SAC’s top trading partner, most Southerners viewed the Revolution favorably even during the Reign of Terror out of strong anti-monarchist sentiment.

In Latin America, the onset of the French Revolution inspired the Haitian Revolution, the largest and most successful slave revolt in recorded history. Conditions in Haiti were particularly brutal for slaves and a French minority dominating the affairs black slave majority only made racial tensions worse. On April 4, 1792, the revolution broke out when the French National Assembly granted freedom to Haitian slaves. This did not satiate Haitians who took French liberalism to heart. In 1804, Haiti had finished its fight to become the first independent nation ruled solely by former slaves. In the early nineteenth century, pro-Revolutionary liberalism was the dominant ideology in Spanish America, especially in Mexico. This was the foundation for the independence movements in Central and South America in the 1820s.

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Chapter Seven: Washington’s Second Term
Chapter Seven: Washington’s Second Term

George Washington considered retirement and retreating to Mount Vernon after one term as president of the USA. Despite having Federalist tendencies, he tried his best to stay neutral and feared that emerging regional and political divisions could permanently rip the new country apart. In the face of all this, Washington remained a generally popular figure in the United States. Even Virginia, arguably the most problematic state in the Union, held high levels of respect for him as he was not only a native Virginian but a Founding Father and Chief of the Continental Army. The rules of the Electoral College in 1792 mandated each elector to cast two votes apiece. The person receiving the most votes was selected as president and the runner-up became the vice president. On February 13, 1793, just weeks before the inauguration, Congress counted the Electoral College votes. Every single elector voted for Washington. With that, he was elected for a second term as president. Vice president John Adams followed in second with seventy electoral votes, retaining his position for four more years. In third place with thirty-four electoral votes came George Clinton who won the majority in his home state of New York plus Virginia. This election was the first time where all 10 of the original states appointed electors to the Electoral College. with New York and Rhode Island sending delegates to cast votes. The newly admitted states of Kentucky and Vermont also participated for the first time.

He struggled intensely to get his entire cabinet to stay on board for his second term. Particularly making this difficult was the very personal rivalry between Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson. At first, they got along fine, as Jefferson even nominated Hamilton for membership in the American Philosophical Society. As time wore one, each took a closer look at the other and began to wonder what he saw. Hamilton was referred to his time as Secretary of Treasury as if he were running the administration instead of Washington. At the same time, Jefferson believed that he held control over the country’s domestic affairs as Secretary of State. This led to each men viewing the other as intrusive. Conflicting personalities made things more tense as Hamilton was aggressive, ambitious, and confrontational, while Jefferson was indirect, retiring, and more inclined to work behind the scenes. Hamilton thus saw Jefferson as hypocritical and sneaky while Jefferson saw Hamilton as an ambitious attack dog. This attitude manifested itself in 1791 as Hamilton supported establishing the First Bank of the United States and of an official government mint while Jefferson venomously opposed both ideas (which passed despite his own and James Madison's objections). Before 1792, George Washington was able to keep the two under control and get them to work together for the good of the fledgling country. It was only in 1792 when he discovered the deepness of how much Hamilton and Jefferson hated each other.

As the United States looked to expand its settlement into the Northwest, fierce local American Indian resistance handily defeated the poorly-trained and equipped US military forces. In order to prevent this from happening again, Washington called Anthony Wayne of Pennsylvania out of retirement in 1792 to command the Legion of the United States. Wayne carefully built up and trained Legion for over a year while diplomats attempted to negotiate a peaceful settlement with the Natives. Despite talks breaking down autumn 1793, delays in mobilizing the militia (largely from Southern resistance) and an epidemic limited his advance. He conducted Fort Recovery to further prepare the Legion. The following summer, Recovery withstood a combined attack by American Indians and Canadians (British). The Legion defeated the combined British-Indian forces at the Battle of Fallen Timbers in modern-day Ohio on August 20, 1794. In the resulting Treaty of Greenville, the Natives surrendered all claims to Ohio, and the British abandoned their forts in the area.

George Washington preferred negotiations to warfare and consequentially created numerous presidential precedents over diplomacy. Among his most famous negotiations were the treaties between various Native American Nations as settlers were fighting skirmishes with them over expanded American settlement. As challenging as they could be, they were nothing compared to what faced him in his second term as president of the United States. In February 1793, France and Great Britain went to war against each other. This set up a tough situation in North America because support for French ideals was strong but reliance on its former mother nation for trade was even stronger. Washington resisted the inclination to support the French, America's ally from the War of Independence. Instead, he insisted that the United States stays neutral during foreign wars, setting more future precedents. If anything, Washington leaned towards Great Britain. Seeking American support, France sent Edmond-Charles Genêt (Citizen Genêt) to the United States. He attempted to circumvent the American government by landing in Richmond, Virginia rather than Philadelphia. Upon his arrival, Genêt recruited privateers and exploited regional divisions before slowly making his way to the capital Philadelphia. Once he reached Philadelphia, Washington denounced Genêt’s presence and the country of France itself.

Thus, he worked with Alexander Hamilton in 1794 to develop a treaty that would normalize trade relations with Britain, ease financial issues, and settle land claims west of the Appalachians. Amid universal clamoring, Washington chose Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay to negotiate between American-British disputes. The treaty, signed by Jay and negotiated with British Foreign Secretary William Wyndham Grenville, favored British economic and military power. The agreement was formally titled the "Treaty of Amity Commerce and Navigation between His Britannic Majesty and the United States of America.” The finalized version was signed on November 19, 1794, informally known as the Jay Treaty. President Washington did not receive a copy until March 7, 1795 nor did the Senate look at it until June 8. Most objections came, predictably, from Kentucky, Maryland, and Virginia, with the main source of contention being that only ships seventy tons or less could commercially access the British West Indies. This was important as the majority of slaves imported to continental North America and those three states, in particular, were shipped in from the West Indies. This did not stop the Senate approved the treaty with a two-thirds majority. On June 29, an illicit copy of the treaty appeared in a national Republican newspaper. The reaction was very mixed. In areas where the reaction was negative (the West and South), riots and public bonfires of the British flag, the treaty, and effigies of John Jay took place. In response, Washington demanded Alexander Hamilton and Federalists in the North and East to counteract opponents by spreading their views nationwide. In mid-August, Washington ratified the Jay Treaty unconditionally amid concerns over the protests and fears of the French taking advantage of the negativity. Predictably, the French were angered by The Jay, who responded by harassing American vessels at sea.

Republican anti-treaty protests continued into 1796 with strong support from the South and West. Protests got so far out of hand that the House of Representatives, narrowly led by Republicans, tried to force Washington to submit documents related to the treaty. Washington refused to submit them, instead insisting that the House had no constitutional authority over treaties. Federalist-dominated areas in the Northern and Eastern states praised Washington for his skilled leadership during the crisis. In May 1796, Washington gave a speech expressing hope that the Jay Treaty would lead a potentially-divided America into a time of peace and prosperity. Little did he know that war would appear on his doorstep before the end of the century.

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I would think then, that the USA still has the same incentives to acquire Louisiana and I don't really see what the Southerners are going to do if they try. If they don't purchase it though, then what? Does it go to Britain? Do the North and South make a grab for it when France is busy in Europe so that it doesn't go to the British?

I agree that the Northerners shouldn't care about what happens in Florida. By the time the Confederacy can muster either the cash (and agree on how to fund it) or the force to get it, it's going to be settled with a significant trickle of slave Carolinian and Georgian slave owners. Not the kind of people the USA is eager to admit nor the kind that want to be admitted to the USA. The map indicates that the Spanish must have signed some treaty with Georgia resolving the Northern boundary of West Florida. With the confederation consisting of just three, relatively rural states, Spain would probably decide it could afford to maintain its hard stance regarding the rest of Florida, with East Florida being the more desired colony. Especially since the Confederation doesn't bump up against Texas, thus removing that boundary dispute from the equation (unlike the Adams Onis treaty).
Wouldn't the North want all Louisiana to both box of the rest of North America from the South and also being able to charge them for shipping through New Orleans? It would be interesting to see a Rump south having to go to the Caribbean to expand. I would think Haiti wouldn't be friendly with the South.
Wouldn't the North want all Louisiana to both box of the rest of North America from the South and also being able to charge them for shipping through New Orleans?
The Mississippi isn't going to be as important to the South if they can't expand into Louisiana like OTL. Honestly I don't see any reason why the North or South would hold a grudge considering they parted ways much more amicably than other timelines.
The Mississippi isn't going to be as important to the South if they can't expand into Louisiana like OTL. Honestly I don't see any reason why the North or South would hold a grudge considering they parted ways much more amicably than other timelines.
They did leave on a sour note, the only difference is that actively pursuing hostility wasn't a priority. We will see what happens upon the Louisiana Purchase.
The Mississippi isn't going to be as important to the South if they can't expand into Louisiana like OTL. Honestly I don't see any reason why the North or South would hold a grudge considering they parted ways much more amicably than other timelines.
Would continued expansion be deemed as a potential threat? It may make economic sense to make the southern states pay to trade out of New Orleans (if the north gets it) Politically I'm also assuming you have some reunification people within both camps. They might want their side to absorb the other side. Should the north buy all that territory the South will be worried