Thriving Atenism Effects -- After the Collapse

[John Fredrick Parker]

So @NikoZnate did this amazing TL sometime back about Atenism not only thriving in Egypt, but managing to gain a slight following among the other Bronze Age Civilizations (sponsored by the Pharohs). While Niko does a great job exploring the plausibility and short to medium term prospects for such an endeavor, I got to thinking about it in a different light. See, AIUI the present historical consensus is that the Bronze Age Collapse is essentially inevitable, due to being the effect of geological activities and climate change, that in turn leads to runoff effects our PoD is unable to stop (ie famines, mass migrations, etc); I realize that some here might want to take issue with this analysis, but let's all say, just for the sake of staying on topic, that it is the case.

What I'm interested in here is, if, as of 1177 BC, the Faith of Aten is dominant in Egypt and of noticeable presence in urban centers all across the civilized (western) world, how does this change the civilizations that emerge and thrive in the subsequent Iron Age (circa 1200 to 600 BC)? For me, the most intriguing potential aspect of this is, does Atenist influence lead to affected civilizations taking on more "Egyptian" characteristics as they rebuild?

To take one obvious example -- would monotheism (though not necessarily worship of Aten) be closer to the norm in this alternate western world earlier? Would the "dark ages" be shorter, as there were movements and institutions laying the groundwork for (a more) non-violent state building?

And another particular detail that comes to mind -- I had read that marriage in Ancient Egypt, at least as early as the New Kingdom, was both monogamous and by consent of both parties (ie parents did not "give away" their children to new homes, as was custom among the Greeks and Romans). If there's a religion with some popularity in places like Mycenea and Anatolia that preach of a single "true" way of doing things, and happen to see Egyptian culture as most approximating this "truth", does that lead to this kind of conception of marriage possibly being absorbed into successor *Greek* civilization?

So what do you guys think?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Well, I might as well spill the beans about what I had in mind, since if that TL ever comes back from the Field of Reeds it'll be as a reboot...

By 1000-800 BCE, the Levant was to be largely Egyptianized (same religion, Egyptian-derived language, but still seen as distinct from the culture of the Nile Valley), and the Aegean world (Greece + Western Anatolia) were to be under substantial Egyptian influence: Atenism, hieratic-inspired writing, Egyptian-influenced art and architecture, all that stuff, and yes, Egyptian gender norms (marriage customs, property rights, etc.) - which by this point in the TL would have expanded considerably (women serving in the Atenist hierarchy's army, which leads in turn to broader acceptance of women combatants in general). Mycenaean influences would have also flowed the other way: Aegean influences on Egyptian secular art, influences on poetry and drama, bronze (late iron) plate-armored Egyptian heavy chariotry/cavalry, Achaean populations resettled in Syria and Mesopotamia. Lower Egyptians, Egyptianized Levantines, and Atenist Greeks and Luwians would be planting colonies around the Adriatic and the western Mediterranean.

There was to be a shorter "dark age" in Greece and Anatolia, and no collapse in the Levant (though there were to be a couple of centuries of localized upheaval, the late New Kingdom and Atenist institutions did a lot to mitigate it) - the Bronze Age Collapse in general was to be less dramatic, as a protracted wars between the Egyptians and Elamites in Mesopotamia (and violence associated with dynastic regime changes and "Atenization" in Hatti) would've kept demand for mercenaries high.
Mesopotamia in the TL was fated to bear the brunt of Collapse-related violence and population movements, resulting ultimately in its Iranization by the 600's BCE - the Iranians would not be Atenists; this would set the stage for the next crisis in the Atenist Hierarchy, and eventually the next great Atenist Empire in Southwest Asia/North Africa...

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Alphabetic (as opposed to logographic), I hope? Similar to Phoenecian script?

Alphabetic (for Greek)! The strain of Hieratic used to write Egyptian was to evolve into an abugida.

 

[Shiva]

First of all, I loved the Atenist Egypt TL, I'm still subscribed to it just for the occasional re-read.

As I was reading it I got the impression that Atenism was to be a force that endured well into the TL's 'Modern Era', though I imagine that the religion would have gone through several evolutions, schisms, and the birth of a new religion or two that would probably view themselves as the 'True Faith' and the successor to the original Atenism.

It's basically us getting to see a Western Hinduism be born in a Bronze Age society and go through several transformations and evolutions to the point of near non-recognition... And yet you can still see traces of it's roots if you look hard enough.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

By 1000-800 BCE... the Aegean world (Greece + Western Anatolia) were to be under substantial Egyptian influence: Atenism, hieratic-inspired writing, Egyptian-influenced art and architecture, all that stuff, and yes, Egyptian gender norms (marriage customs, property rights, etc.) - which by this point in the TL would have expanded considerably (women serving in the Atenist hierarchy's army, which leads in turn to broader acceptance of women combatants in general)... Atenist Greeks... would be planting colonies around the Adriatic and the western Mediterranean.

This alternate *Greek* Civilization in really interesting to think about -- on the one hand, they're clearly not just puppet states of Egypt, even if there is a lot of two way influence, and are still acting as a power in their own right; but on the other, they are very different from OTL, and those massive changes are carrying over across the rest of the Mediterranean. I wonder if these alternate Greeks will prove to be as inventive as OTL's were (in government, philosophy, etc)?

CONSOLIDATE: Or does the Atenist Hierchy in *Greece* follow direction from Egypt, effectively making the Greeks satellites to Egyptian spiritual authority (a la OTL's Medieval Byzantine Church)?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

First of all, I loved the Atenist Egypt TL, I'm still subscribed to it just for the occasional re-read.

As I was reading it I got the impression that Atenism was to be a force that endured well into the TL's 'Modern Era', though I imagine that the religion would have gone through several evolutions, schisms, and the birth of a new religion or two that would probably view themselves as the 'True Faith' and the successor to the original Atenism.

It's basically us getting to see a Western Hinduism be born in a Bronze Age society and go through several transformations and evolutions to the point of near non-recognition... And yet you can still see traces of it's roots if you look hard enough.

That was basically the plan, yeah. By the "Modern Era" much of the world was to be following one "Atenic" religion or another, with a very clear history of where and when it all began underpinning it all.

@NikoZnate Or does the Atenist Hierchy in *Greece* follow direction from Egypt, effectively making the Greeks satellites to Egyptian spiritual authority (a la OTL's Medieval Byzantine Church)?

This. Until roughly 100 BCE ~ 100 CE, the Atenist Hierarchy in Greece (and throughout much of the Mediterranean) was to acknowledge the primacy of the Divine Adoratrice in Akhet-Aten. Not without a few hiccups along the way, of course... The "New Kingdom" Empire was planned to end (a few centuries later than OTL) with a temporary schism between the Hierarchical seats in Akhet-Aten and Napata, among other factors.

The Greeks would certainly be quite influential, but filtered through an Egyptian lens (Greek communities in Egypt, the Levant, and Mesopotamia would be where a lot of the philosophical ferment happened). Political developments in the Greek world were to go in interesting directions in southern *Italy (more Greeks there - fewer in Anatolia). Eventually, the plan was for mainland Greece to be overrun by non-Atenist Celts, aborting any possible *Hellenistic period but leading to a substantial Greek diaspora, and eventually a whole Greek language family scattered around the Mediterranean shores.

 

[Timaeus]

This. Until roughly 100 BCE ~ 100 CE, the Atenist Hierarchy in Greece (and throughout much of the Mediterranean) was to acknowledge the primacy of the Divine Adoratrice in Akhet-Aten. Not without a few hiccups along the way, of course... The "New Kingdom" Empire was planned to end (a few centuries later than OTL) with a temporary schism between the Hierarchical seats in Akhet-Aten and Napata, among other factors.

The Greeks would certainly be quite influential, but filtered through an Egyptian lens (Greek communities in Egypt, the Levant, and Mesopotamia would be where a lot of the philosophical ferment happened). Political developments in the Greek world were to go in interesting directions in southern *Italy (more Greeks there - fewer in Anatolia). Eventually, the plan was for mainland Greece to be overrun by non-Atenist Celts, aborting any possible *Hellenistic period but leading to a substantial Greek diaspora, and eventually a whole Greek language family scattered around the Mediterranean shores.

Did you have any plans for the Hittites?

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

The Greeks would certainly be quite influential, but filtered through an Egyptian lens (Greek communities in Egypt, the Levant, and Mesopotamia would be where a lot of the philosophical ferment happened). Political developments in the Greek world were to go in interesting directions in southern *Italy (more Greeks there - fewer in Anatolia). Eventually, the plan was for mainland Greece to be overrun by non-Atenist Celts, aborting any possible *Hellenistic period but leading to a substantial Greek diaspora, and eventually a whole Greek language family scattered around the Mediterranean shores.

The most notable thing in all this is that the "Greeks" being referred to here are the Mynaceans, whose language (AIUI) and culture can be thought of as highly distinct, for the most part, from the Greeks of OTL, who were largely Dorian (with the exception of Athens, if the myths are to be believed); TTL's *Greeks*, even with more Egyptian influence, are likely speaking a language more closely related to Linear B than that of OTL.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Did you have any plans for the Hittites?

Muwatti's line was to take over the kingdom and rule as a converted client of Atenist Egypt, with a heresy (dubbed "the Handantatric Faith" - after the concept of handantatar, the Hittite Ma'at-analogue) emerging and becoming popular in Anatolia, the Caucasus, and parts of Greece. Muwatti's dynasty was to be supplanted late in the *Collapse by a Cimmerian dynasty that maintained Hittite royal traditions, but converted to the Handantatric Faith outright and governed in the Luwian language. The Cimmero-Hittite kingdom would eventually be conquered by a Saka empire (roughly filling the space of OTL's Median Empire), and a new, post-Hittite Luwian kingdom was to break away after re-converting to Atenism and breaking loose of the Saka yoke with Retjenawy (Egypto-Levantine) and Hurrian support (oh yeah, *Syria becomes largely Hurrianized). The Neo-Luwian kingdom (centered around Ikkuwaniya/Konya) was to be a regional bit player similar to OTL Lydia or Phrygia, but beyond that plans were pretty wide open.

 

[Timaeus]

Muwatti's line was to take over the kingdom and rule as a converted client of Atenist Egypt, with a heresy (dubbed "the Handantatric Faith" - after the concept of handantatar, the Hittite Ma'at-analogue) emerging and becoming popular in Anatolia, the Caucasus, and parts of Greece. Muwatti's dynasty was to be supplanted late in the *Collapse by a Cimmerian dynasty that maintained Hittite royal traditions, but converted to the Handantatric Faith outright and governed in the Luwian language. The Cimmero-Hittite kingdom would eventually be conquered by a Saka empire (roughly filling the space of OTL's Median Empire), and a new, post-Hittite Luwian kingdom was to break away after re-converting to Atenism and breaking loose of the Saka yoke with Retjenawy (Egypto-Levantine) and Hurrian support (oh yeah, *Syria becomes largely Hurrianized). The Neo-Luwian kingdom (centered around Ikkuwaniya/Konya) was to be a regional bit player similar to OTL Lydia or Phrygia, but beyond that plans were pretty wide open.

I apologize if this has come a bit late, and if it's prying too much into your original plans, but... what about India? I'm still curious about what you were planning there. Because I really, really love your TL.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

I apologize if this has come a bit late, and if it's prying too much into your original plans, but... what about India? I'm still curious about what you were planning there. Because I really, really love your TL.

India was very loosely thought-out, but there was to be a large Gangetic empire (practicing largely familiar forms of Hinduism, though with Surya retaining a bit more prominence) spreading across much of the North by, roughly, the 400's BCE. This Empire would leave behind something of a "Mandate of Heaven" sort of ethos that would encourage subsequent dynasties to actively reunite and maintain "Aryavarta" as a single political unit. The South was to come under light Egyptian influence through trade/adventurous chantresses, but would ultimately produce a competing syncretic religion that would spread around the Indian Ocean rim. I didn't really imagine this religion much beyond it being an amalgam of Atenism, Vedic Hinduism, Dravidian "paganism", and a working name: The Path of the Shining Star.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Figuring how India is affected by a Vedic Age PoD seems like it would be kind of tricky (with the exception of the fall of the IRV, which is, iirc, before our PoD), since (AIUI) we don't know much of their history prior to the Mahajanapada Period. Considering the time period, I don't blame @NikoZnate for not having much there.

 

[Whiteshore]

India was very loosely thought-out, but there was to be a large Gangetic empire (practicing largely familiar forms of Hinduism, though with Surya retaining a bit more prominence) spreading across much of the North by, roughly, the 400's BCE. This Empire would leave behind something of a "Mandate of Heaven" sort of ethos that would encourage subsequent dynasties to actively reunite and maintain "Aryavarta" as a single political unit. The South was to come under light Egyptian influence through trade/adventurous chantresses, but would ultimately produce a competing syncretic religion that would spread around the Indian Ocean rim. I didn't really imagine this religion much beyond it being an amalgam of Atenism, Vedic Hinduism, Dravidian "paganism", and a working name: The Path of the Shining Star.

When would butterflies have affected *China, then?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

When would butterflies have affected *China, then?

Eventually, yes. The Zhou were still scheduled to replace the Shang, but beyond that alternate migrations were free to throw wrenches into things...

 

[Thesaurus Rex]

Should the Egyptian empire fall politically, would the Pharaoh still exist in some form as a Dalai Lama/Pope equivalent?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Should the Egyptian empire fall politically, would the Pharaoh still exist in some form as a Dalai Lama/Pope equivalent?

In a general "surviving Atenism" scenario, you would likely have several Pharaohs all pretending to religious headship. The fracturing of the Empire means schisms within the religion. Unless, of course, power can be devolved to some kind of priestly authority.

In my TL specifically, Pharaoh no - Divine Adoratrice yes.

 

[altwere]

Interesting where you were going.

 

[Zireael]

That is all some very interesting insights.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Aside from how geopolitics and the development of religion itself is affected, just as or more interesting here is how this has knockoff effects on philosophy and culture; after all, the Dark Age that followed the Bronze Age Collapse OTL transitioned into what we now know as the Axial Age, which saw the flourishing of secular philosophy (which will be affected) and monotheism (which has already flourishing TTL).