Three Tudors WIs:

Personally I always thought that Jane being the 'favorite' wife was Henry's retroactive take on the woman, after all she DID bear him a son and heir. But during her actual time with him, she was always pushed to the side, expected to be the perfect dutiful and quiet Queen who was never allowed to get involved in Henry's political affairs.

In other words, she had less influence than Catherine Howard wound up having. Though if Jane had lived her stock would have gone up, she could have built on it to begin playing the game.

But taking into consideration her actual life... She only became the favorite after death.

I agree, Jane's death meant that there was no bloom lost off the rose, makes one wonder though: if she'd lived, how much different would her treatment by Henry have been to how he did Katherine and Anne before her. Henry seemed to put his love of the moment on a pedestal, and the minute she "descend, be stone no more" his masculinity was insecure enough that he took umbrage at it (Katherine led an army into battle as regent, was victorious, but was never appointed regent again; Anne, well, she was never regent, but he moved heaven and earth to wed her and bed her (not necessarily in that order), and then decided after everything "nope, not this one, either".)

Also, do you think Jane would've continued to be as cold to the Lady Elizabeth? Lizzie was only brought to court by the Lady Mary's insistence, so I could see that Jane's preference for the one over the other perhaps straining the relationship somewhat? And do you think Jane would be any more effective at seeing Mary married off than Anne was? Or do you think Mary's going to remain single until her father is willing to let her marry?
 
Okay, Henry was quick to slap Jane down when she attempted to intercede on Mary's behalf (before Mary signed the document stating she agreed with what her father believed), telling her to look to her own offspring. So, the bloom was off the rose, so to speak, by the time Edward was born. The fact that Edward survived would make Jane untouchable so far as annulment or accusations of adultery, but she'd remain a brood mare and only be crowned as consort (not, like Anne, with the kingly crown) - there was a rumor that her coronation would only happen after she gave Henry a son; but given the state of the royal treasury, it would be a small coronation compared to Anne's.

Jane survives, Mary is found a husband (possibly an Englishman of noble birth or to a foreign prince because Henry's ego would not allow him to believe that Edward would not reign as long as he did). Elizabeth would be sent home to her grandparents, and her "illegitimacy" emphasized, probably to the point where she is removed from the succession (Jane was the anti-Anne, so Elizabeth had to be negated). Ironically, by being a disinherited bastard, her reluctance to wed will provide Henry with the excuse NOT to wed her at home or abroad (to avoid problems with reformers - because Henry's English church was just the Catholic church with Henry as Pope). Once her grandparents died, she'd go to live with Mary Boleyn and her new husband rather than be treated like Mary or even Henry Fitzroy. Although, since Henry acknowledged her as his child (reluctantly), Mary and her husband would probably get some money to take Liz in. No titles, though.

Mary was old enough (literally) to be Elizabeth's mother, hence her interest in her (remember, she was forced to serve in Elizabeth's household) - when Mary was reinstated, she was doing what was considered Christian duty by looking after her half-sister now in disgrace. I do not see Jane extending much to Elizabeth, as that would be seen at court as a pro-Anne thing and Anne was persona non grata. If Henry marries his eldest off (as Jane will probably want, especially after Edward's birth), Mary will be less interested in Liz.
 
Who might be a good match for Mary in this scenario? Henry (if his treatment of all possible Plantagenet pretenders is anything to go by, won't want her to marry at home to cause trouble for his darling boy) might be interested in a foreign royal for her. If he can get one, that is. Who might he push? The duke of Beja? OTL match foundered because of Henry's stinginess, but might Jane's influence see him be less tight-fisted? Or what about James of Scots? His first wife is dead, and if Marie de Guise is slightly more stubborn in her refusal to want to remarry, might Henry offer Mary?
 
The Duke of Beja might be a good choice. He's older and he's not an immediate heir. When/if Mary comes to the throne in England (say Jane's second son doesn't survive because he gets the Tudor lungs or something), Beja will be less threatening; he can't unite England with the country he rules because he doesn't rule one. And it means the Tudor bloodline hopefully extends to the Portuguese throne via Mary & Luis' son/daughter.......or grandchild.

I don't see him wedding either Mary or Elizabeth to Englishmen (for the reason you mentioned). In fact, in the Jane survives scenario, Elizabeth won't be in the succession, any more than his other 'bastards'. Liz will get an allowance allowing her to live as a Lady (daughter of the Marquess of Pembroke, but does not inherit the title or the lands), but little else. And Edward won't know her or care much about her because what he'll be told by his mother is what a witch and whore Elizabeth's mother was, bewitching the king into setting aside Katherine of Aragon and bastardizing Mary (even though his father will still think he's right and that marriage was incestuous) - Jane will probably have a lot to do with that. (You don't chase your employer's husband unless you have contempt for her.)
 
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Would the Anglican Church and it's adherents be more or less Catholic here then? Because that might have interesting connotations for young Prince Edward. The reformers are bound to still be there but how much influence will they have with the king and his heir?
 
Okay, with Jane still living, I don't see Edward becoming the radical reformer and the swing to the Protestantism, Edward might not have the strict Catholic viewpoint of his father, but he'll be closer to that than anything else. Jane was Catholic. She pleaded for monasteries and convents in the North, over Cromwell's obsessive destruction of them. With a healthy son, Jane might be able (with her brothers' help and that of those who hated Cromwell for various reasons) to pull Thomas Cromwell down without a disastrous marriage to Anne of Cleves for Henry.....
 
Her brothers were reformers, but.....they were political animals first and foremost. Cromwell and Cranmer had a lot to answer for in steering the reformation of the English Church away from Catholic dogma. A Catholic Jane, Henry as the English Pope (let's face it, that's all he did, was assume that office into the monarchy for England), and.....

What I think Jane living will mean is that Henry will see his son more and be more of an influence on him. OTL, the child was raised away from court - supposedly for his health, but actually to not remind Henry of what he'd lost (Jane) getting what he wanted (a son), resulting in obsessive fears for the boy's "health".
 
I don't think Henry will pursue James for Mary because he'd worry what a grown James, with Henry's grown daughter, would do to Edward as minor ruling England. Now, he might pursue James' daughter Mary for Edward and the wooing wouldn't be as rough, with Jane about. Beja would be good enough for Henry in this case and Jane surviving might just be the reason he does it (lets her marry him).
 
Okay, with Jane still living, I don't see Edward becoming the radical reformer and the swing to the Protestantism, Edward might not have the strict Catholic viewpoint of his father, but he'll be closer to that than anything else. Jane was Catholic. She pleaded for monasteries and convents in the North, over Cromwell's obsessive destruction of them. With a healthy son, Jane might be able (with her brothers' help and that of those who hated Cromwell for various reasons) to pull Thomas Cromwell down without a disastrous marriage to Anne of Cleves for Henry.....

I could be wrong, but Anne Stanhope, duchess of Somerset (she who was more presumptious than Lucifer), as well as the duchess of Suffolk were friends of the Reform movement, so if two ladies who are this important (more Katherine Willoughby than Lady Seymour, unless Edward Seymour rockets up the ranks like he did OTL) at court mean that as much as the reform is going to be opposed by the queen, it has it's hooks into some very well placed ladies at court - Lady Rochford, Jane's chief lady-in-waiting is reform minded (according to some), Lady Seymour, the queen's own sister-in-law; and the duchess of Suffolk are just some of the characters who might crop up as being against the queen's Catholicism. Not to mention, until Cromwell screws up (a la Anna of Kleves), Henry's not going to allow Jane the same level of power as he did Anne Boleyn, to sweep aside ministers at a whim. True, they could probably use the Pilgrimage of Grace against Cromwell, but since that didn't cause him to lose Henry's favour OTL, I don't think he'd be easily dislodged until Henry (and only Henry) decides he's outlived his usefulness.
 
Anne Stanhope Seymour was a follower of what was popular. At the time she came to power, her nephew was king and the winds were blowing Lutheran. The Duchess of Suffolk was a reformer, but Anne is not going to publicize these views if Henry and Jane do not. Catherine Brandon is another matter, as is Katheryn Parr. Lady Rochford had little influence at court until another Catholic (Catherine Howard) came to Queenship. So......odds are, if she remains at court (she left for a time after her husband's execution, if I remember correctly), she'll tow the party line. I'm not saying Henry's going to let Jane have power or even that Jane wants power; I'm saying Jane is in a position to urge some people to whisper poison into Henry's ear about Cromwell. That's all it takes with Henry VIII. Once someone (Edward Seymour?) whispers that Cromwell is doing .......... (insert your favorite slander of that age), it might take a year, but Cromwell will fall. A comparison to Wolsey's power and ambition, perhaps? Whispers that Cromwell privately boasts that he runs the country.....Brandon might back that up, as well as the Seymours. Cromwell is an enemy to Catholic-minded folk. Which makes him Jane's enemy by default, without having any treacherous thoughts about her as Queen and perhaps viewing her as a nonentity, a milksop. She's still very Catholic and he's quite Lutheran. If Jane survives, I don't see Cromwell faring well for long.
 
Anne Stanhope Seymour was a follower of what was popular. At the time she came to power, her nephew was king and the winds were blowing Lutheran. The Duchess of Suffolk was a reformer, but Anne is not going to publicize these views if Henry and Jane do not. Catherine Brandon is another matter, as is Katheryn Parr. Lady Rochford had little influence at court until another Catholic (Catherine Howard) came to Queenship. So......odds are, if she remains at court (she left for a time after her husband's execution, if I remember correctly), she'll tow the party line. I'm not saying Henry's going to let Jane have power or even that Jane wants power; I'm saying Jane is in a position to urge some people to whisper poison into Henry's ear about Cromwell. That's all it takes with Henry VIII. Once someone (Edward Seymour?) whispers that Cromwell is doing .......... (insert your favorite slander of that age), it might take a year, but Cromwell will fall. A comparison to Wolsey's power and ambition, perhaps? Whispers that Cromwell privately boasts that he runs the country.....Brandon might back that up, as well as the Seymours. Cromwell is an enemy to Catholic-minded folk. Which makes him Jane's enemy by default, without having any treacherous thoughts about her as Queen and perhaps viewing her as a nonentity, a milksop. She's still very Catholic and he's quite Lutheran. If Jane survives, I don't see Cromwell faring well for long.

From what I can make out, the Lord Protector (who may or may not get his title (duke of Somerset) here (Lord Hertford might still happen, or the lower, Viscount Beauchamp of Hache), since he and Tom Seymour sort of played on their sister's memory as the "true wife" to get a lot of what they did in Henry's reign) was also Protestant(-leaning) was he not? Or was he, like his second wife, simply a trimmer and following which way the winds blew?

Also, back to Fitzroy's two bastards I mentioned in a previous post, how might things go with them?
 
On the Dormer's descent from Agnes Woodville - most pedigrees do not list her as a child of Jacquetta - she is probably the illegitimate daughter of the 1st Earl Rivers or one of his and Jacquetta's sons - her children were born in the 70's so really more likely she was Richard Woodville's illegitimate child.

Fair enough. I read that reportedly the reason for the marriage with the Dormers not taking place is because they (the Dormers) considered the Seymours not to have a good enough pedigree. But yet, when Jane received the purse of money from Henry, she reminds him that she came from an old family, with a good lineage. To my mind, you can't slice it both ways. The Dormers were related (if what I can find on Will Dormer, the father of the duchess of Feria, is true) to the king more-or-less the same way as the Parkers (family of Lady Rochford), through a shared great-grandmother, in this case, Jacquetta of Luxembourg: her youngest daughter (or granddaughter according to some sources), Agnes, married a William Dormer, Kt. Their son, Robert Dormer, married Jane Newdigate and had Will Dormer. And Jane descended through mother-dear from Edward III.

Also, while we're circling the drain in 1536/7, I read recently of a mention in his wikipedia article (mind this was written in 2012, and the mention on wiki has since vanished, but it apparently was sourced from an existing book and everything, so whether it was a fiction I have no idea) that Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Somerset and Richmond, left two illegitimate daughters. I'd say this seems like a stretch given his age when he died, but considering my godson was born when both his parents were in freshman year of college (18/19) and how many kids I knew at school that were having sex, I'd say the chances are 50-50? And if these girls (probably twins to my mind, or born of two different women) did exist, what would be the repercussions of them being "brought to light". Yes, they're bastards of a bastard - side-eye royalty as one writer puts it - but they'd still fetch a decent price in the marriage market so to speak. I mean, Jane Dormer (for reasons I can't fathom, neither mom nor dad had vaunted pedigrees) was courted by the duke of Norfolk, and the earls of Devon and Nottingham, so, I don't think the aristocracy/gentry would necessarily look at them too askance when marriage comes up. And also, if one of those girls had been a boy? How might things have played out. (NOTE: this is assuming that the girls really did exist.)
 
Fitzroy's bastards? Never heard of them. Since his father never allowed him to consummate his marriage to his legal wife, I seriously doubt (like Henry VIII himself while his father lived) that Fitzroy was allowed close enough to girls to even KISS one, much less do anything more.
 
Fitzroy's bastards? Never heard of them. Since his father never allowed him to consummate his marriage to his legal wife, I seriously doubt (like Henry VIII himself while his father lived) that Fitzroy was allowed close enough to girls to even KISS one, much less do anything more.

And we all know that Anne of Cleves thought that's how you made babies - by kissing. Although Fitzroy would certainly not be the first teenager to defy parental authority in that regard. Besides, wasn't there like a thing for royal lads that they got inducted into the "arts of love" usually by some older lady of the court? I know Charles II's first was Christabella Wyndham and I can't recall who it was for Louis XIV, but maybe the lady got preggers from that - although in Louis XIV's case it was repeated a couple of times, apparently.
 
Okay, with Jane still living, I don't see Edward becoming the radical reformer and the swing to the Protestantism, Edward might not have the strict Catholic viewpoint of his father, but he'll be closer to that than anything else. Jane was Catholic. She pleaded for monasteries and convents in the North, over Cromwell's obsessive destruction of them. With a healthy son, Jane might be able (with her brothers' help and that of those who hated Cromwell for various reasons) to pull Thomas Cromwell down without a disastrous marriage to Anne of Cleves for Henry.....
So where did Edward get his OTL Protestant tendencies? His Seymour Uncles? Dudley after Seymour/Somerset lost control of the Royal Council? His tutors?

One interesting question not raised so far with regards to a longer lived Jane, what of Cromwell? Is his shelf live as Henry's main advisor/acting Lord Chancellor (even if he never held that official title) naturally limited by the King's personality such that he'd get pushed out within a year (plus or minus) of 1540 regardless? Or does Cromwell hang on? And what are the odds he ultimately hangs on to his head?
 
With JANE living, Cranmer and the others don't get the leeway they had in Edward's education and indoctrination. Jane dying meant Henry left his education and such to others. Jane was a dutiful Roman Catholic, she's not going to let her son become Lutheran (in practice if not in name). The council during Edward's reign was morbidly Protestant, it was not run according to Henry's will. (So the answer would be Uncles/Dudley & MAYBE the tutors).

Don't know about Cromwell, but I suspect Jane would put a bug in Henry's ear ("He's so like Wolsey") or such that he wouldn't last much longer than OTL. He might not be executed, but he might find himself the permanent ambassador to the Vatican, endlessly trying to get the Pope to retroactively consent to Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn......(or another useless, pointless cause to win until he can come home)
 
Not sure Jane makes much difference to Edward VI's education - Henry himself was hardly at the forefront of reform - yet the tutors and household he chose for his son undoubtedly leaned toward reform (Even when Henry himself was busy trying to put the Lutheran genie back in the bottle). As Jane learned when she tried to ask for clemency for the Pilgrimage of Grace Henry did not appreciate his wive's meddling in his affairs.
 
Yeah, but he'd appreciate a wife who knew her business: the kids. After Katherine and Anne, he'd have let her have a say in Edward's earlier upbringing. He'd be happy the wife was only interested in the baby/child end of things - because he thought the other two weren't 'giving it their all'. I think Henry handed Edward off to Cranmer without realizing how reformist Cranmer was. Had he known just how radical Cranmer was, he'd have needed a new archbishop......Cranmer would have gone the way of Fisher.

Jane was Catholic. Any Lutheran nonsense from Ed would have sent her to Henry with tales of Cranmer's heresy and that being taught to Edward. Henry would have listened to that.....it affected HIS church.
 
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