Those Austrian women!

At the risk of sounding like a total Hapsburg nut, I was just wondering that because of the Diplomatic Revolution, Empress Maria Theresa pulled off five Hapsburg-Bourbon marriages - her son, the Emperor Josef II and the Archduchess Maria Amalie to the son and daughter of the duke of Parma; the Emperor Leopold II and first Archduchess Maria Johanna, then Maria Josefa and finally Maria Karoline to the son and daughter of the king of Naples (later the king of Spain); and the most famous Hapsburg-Bourbon match of all - Maria Antonia to Louis XVI.

Now, Maria Johanna and Maria Josefa, as well as their brother, the Archduke Karl, died from smallpox. If Karl had survived Leopold and not Max wouldve been pushed into the cloth of the clergy. But say by some fluke - not like their sister Elisabeth who survived but was so scarred by smallpox her marriage negotiations AFAIK with the widowed Louis XV were broken off - survive, or better yet don't get smallpox at all (the Empress was a big supporter of innoculation). And while were at it, what about a butterfly going to Versailles to let Mgr le Duc de Bourgogne not die, and maybe let Mgr le Duc de Berri (Louis XVI) die instead????

Also, if their sisters don't die, it rules out sending Karoline to Naples and Antonia to Paris, and with 2 sisters (Archduchesses Maria Anna, and the aforementioned Elisabeth) already sitting as Abbesses, and Maria Theresia's obsession with having as many grandchildren as possible, I don't see either archduchess being a case of "get thee to a nunnery". So who would Theresia's three youngest children - Karoline, Antonia and Max - marry in this situation?
 
No takers???

Or are all the Marie Antoinette supporters against this?

I think you have some things wrong:
1) Leopold was never destined to the Church (and originally none of his brother was destined to the clergy). Before his brother's death he was engaged with Maria Beatrice of Este, the heiress of the Duchy of Modena (who OTL became wife of the next brother, the Archduke Ferdinand)
2) Maria Antonia being the most beautiful (or the second most beautiful after her sister Elisabeth) of Maria Theresa's daughters was always the favorite for the French wedding. Sure if her older sisters will not die Karolina will never sent to Naples, and Maria Theresa will surely search husbands for her and Maria Josefa and likely wives for Ferdinand and Max but Maria Antonia's fate was likely sealed before the deaths of her sisters
 
I agree that Leopold was originally betrothed to Mademoiselle d'Este but "Leopold was born in Vienna, the third son, and was at first educated for the priesthood, but the theological studies to which he was forced to apply himself are believed to have influenced him against the Church" and when his brother Karl - original betrothed to a daughter of the king of Naples- died she was married to Leopold instead, and Maria Beatrice d'Este was given off to Leopold's younger brother - Ferdinand

As to Maria Josefa or Maria Karoline couldn't one of them perhaps marry a Savoyard prince - Maria Christine had been scheduled to marry the duke of Chablais but then Franz I died, and she manipulated the Empress into letting her marry Albert of Saxony instead)
 
Since Antoinette was going to be sent to France from the get go, would there be any signifcant changes if she were to marry Monseigneur le Duc de Bourgogne (who for argument's sake lives longer) instead of Louis XVI. Or would he be married to Caroline instead as I saw in another thread; and maybe Antoinette still sent to marry Louis XVI?

Or would the French see that as perhaps creating too much of a pro-Austrian faction at court?
 
Could this further cement a Franco-Austrian alliance, or a breakdown in relations between Vienna and Paris?? Any thoughts?
 
I do not think who the French will marry both the first and second heir in ine with Austrian Archduchess and I think who only Antonia will be sent to Paris to marry the Dauphin (who can be either the Duc de Bougogne or the Duc of Berry her OTL husband) and if she will marry the Duc de Bourgogne then her life will be likely easier: with a stronger and more determinate husband her marriage will be likely consumed immediately after the wedding and thus she will have children earlier (good both for her and her reputation) and at the same time another husband will gave her much less liberty and influence.

If Johanna survive and marry the King of Naples is very likely who Karolina (or maybe also Josepha) and not Amelia (who was five year older than her husband) will marry the Duke of Parma
 
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I think Antonia would marry Bourgogne rather than Berri since her mother would see no point in trying to secure an alliance with France through marrying her daughter to a younger son who would be unlikely to inherit.

I agree with sending Johanna to Naples and Josefina/Carolina to Parma, but it would leave Amalie unmarried, since her desired match with the prince of Zweibrucken was refused since MT and Joseph II had their eye on Bavaria
 
I think Antonia would marry Bourgogne rather than Berri since her mother would see no point in trying to secure an alliance with France through marrying her daughter to a younger son who would be unlikely to inherit.

I agree with sending Johanna to Naples and Josefina/Carolina to Parma, but it would leave Amalie unmarried, since her desired match with the prince of Zweibrucken was refused since MT and Joseph II had their eye on Bavaria

You could send her off to Spain to Charles IV... and have Maria Luisa sent off to her cousins in Paris instead....Artois or Provence..

then you get an Austrian, Savoyard and Parmese faction in Paris.
 
At the risk of sounding like a total Hapsburg nut

Don't worry. You're not the only one on the forum who is. Just look at my username.


Anyway, in a perfect world IMO Theresa should have never become empress. My 14 great grandfather who I was named after (and I took my username from) should have never abdictated the throne of the HRE to his brother Ferdinand I and Ferdinand's descendants including Maria Theresa and her father Charles VI should have never became the Holy Roman Emperors. Therefore Philip II of Spain should have became the Holy Roman Emperor on his father's death in addition to being king of Spain. On the other hand, if Charles didn't abdictate to him, Ferdinand would be the only one among his siblings who never became a king or queen consort of a country. That's what I like to call 16th Century Political correctness (all siblings have to have a chance being a king/queen!) :)
 
The Emperor Franz I (husband of Maria Theresia) originally proposed a match between the Duc de Chablais and Maria Christina of Austria. Christina wormed her way out of it - and incurred the lasting dislike of her siblings - due to her mother's depression after her father's death, and Christina persuading her to countenance a marriage to a landless prince (Albert of Saxony).

Might Chablais rather take Amalie (they were close in age) instead - since the whole reason for the marriage was to improve relations between Austria and Savoy (and thereby detach Savoy from the French sphere of influence).
 
You could send her off to Spain to Charles IV... and have Maria Luisa sent off to her cousins in Paris instead....Artois or Provence..

then you get an Austrian, Savoyard and Parmese faction in Paris.
Impossible. And the only reason for which the wedding between Maria Luisa and Charles IV can be annulled would be the request of Joseph I to marry her after his first and very loved wife's death (Isabella was Luisa's eldest sister) and in that case was almost sure who Charles IV will marry another daughter of Maria Theresa (in this case I think the most likely would be Karolina).

Then you can have:
1) Johanna Queen of Naples
2) Amelie Duchesse of Chablais
3) Josephine Duchesse of Parma
4) Karoline Queen of Spain
5) Antoniette Queen of France
 
Then you can have:
1) Johanna Queen of Naples
2) Amelie Duchesse of Chablais
3) Josephine Duchesse of Parma
4) Karoline Queen of Spain
5) Antoniette Queen of France

It would be interesting to see how Karoline would act in Madrid instead of Naples (with an equally apathetic husband) since much of her doings in Naples was to turn into a world class power (she had the help of Sir john Acton in this). Maybe her intrigues could instead revitalize the Spanish empire?

Also, Antoinette as wife of Bourgogne would be a definite 180 from her OTL husband, since Bourgogne was said to be cast much in the mold of Louis XIV. She might even be enemies with La Polignac who might be able to tempt Bourgogne from his marriage bed. Also, I wonder if the Mesdames wouldve had as much influence if the marriage had been consumated immediately, and maybe a pregnancy to follow?

I don't know enough about the duke of Chablais to hypothesize on Amalie's marriage. But I'm sure she wouldve been happier with a husband OLDER rather than YOUNGER than she. She might also be less belittling of him and less abusive towards any children they have (both attested to by Maria Christina in letters to their mother). But Chablais was a military man, AND not a ruler in his own right, so we could see some intriguing on her part for him to get a throne of his own.

Johanna and Josephina, likewise I only know what's written about them on wiki, since the biographies on Antoinette, Karoline and Maria Theresa I've read skate over them. But it stands to reason they would be more of the same as their sisters, since all of Maria Theresa's daughters were political meddlers (often on their mother's advice/instructions).

What would be interesting is if Joseph II could have an heir by Isabella (she was pregnant four times between their marriage and her death: two daughters, a miscarried son and another miscarriage that might be the same one or a different one [the talk of it is vague]), since he didn't like his second wife and reportedly walled up the passage connecting their rooms so he wouldn't have to see her.

If its no dice on a match between Joseph II and Maria Josefa, where might she marry instead?
 
According to wiki (not always the most reliable source) there was a plan to marry Josef II to Maria Elisabeth of Saxony. And they met in secret at Teplitz, but Josef came away with an unfavorable impression of her; and no one in Europe wanted to marry her after finding out about it, so Friedrich Augustus II arranged with the empress that she (Elisabeth) would become Abbess of Essen.

Any thoughts or further info?
 
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