Thomas of York marries Catherine woodville

You're making him too "cunning". Too versed in cortu matters, too aware of the Woodville's weaknesses and Warwick's troubles. In two words: too good, IMHO.
 
You're making him too "cunning". Too versed in cortu matters, too aware of the Woodville's weaknesses and Warwick's troubles. In two words: too good, IMHO.

Really? Having him see the tension between his brother and Warwick and seeing growing Woodville power is having him too good?
 
I suppose the keeping secrets close to his chest, and learning more about court games is also what you're referring to?
 
If his elder bropther was dealing with those people and could not foresaw Warwick's treason and the ambition of the Woodvilles, which power had Thomas that made him see what was coming?
 
If his elder bropther was dealing with those people and could not foresaw Warwick's treason and the ambition of the Woodvilles, which power had Thomas that made him see what was coming?

Very true, though, surely him simply seeing the tension between his brother and Warwick, is not foresight, but merely observing? I grant you the bit about the woodvilles though
 
How does this sound:
Thomas of York, the fourth surviving son of Richard, 3rd Duke of York and Cecily Neville, was born in 1451, and grew up in the shadow of the war of the roses. When he was but nine years old, he was sent alongside his older brother George and his younger brother Richard, to Burgundy, whilst his father and brother Edmund were slain at Sandal Castle. He and his brothers returned to England, following their oldest brother Edward's victories at Mortimer Cross and Towton, where Edward was proclaimed King Edward IV. Thomas was created Duke of Bedford, Earl of Kendall and Earl of Carlisle following his brother's victories. Raised at court, whilst his brother Richard was raised in Middleham, Thomas soon came to find himself missing the simplicity of his childhood homes of Ludlow and Fotheringhay, indeed, most of his time was spent learning the ways of a Duke, learning French, Latin, and a variety of other subjects deemed appropriate, furthermore, as his brother, the King's squire, he was privy to certain aspects of government that others were not, though as a youngt boy these often shot over his head. He was there when his brother married Elizabeth Woodville. The fallout of that decision, was something that would leave a deep impact on him. His relationship with his brother, the King was one of awe and admiration, whilst his relationship with his other two brothers was somewhat more distant, though, more with clarence than with gloucester-with whom the year age gap between them, served to make them more relatable to one another when they saw one another-. He was aged eighteen in 1469, when he was given livery of his estates, and allowed to take hold of his lands, doing away with the men his brother had placed there. With him was one Rob Aspell, a man who had served his brother Edmund, and was someone Thomas would come to rely on, in the future. He was in Bedford, when word came of his brother Clarence's dash across the channel with Warwick, to marry Isabel Neville.
 
Couple of points

All three royal brothers need a rich wife to maintain their style and position.
Both George and Richard were knighted, granted the garter and created Duke (they did not receive any subsiduary titles which was not unusual at that time) on their brother's accession.

Even at this period lands were not necessarily granted to correspond to the title - for example Clarence has no distinct regional association (though it is believed to devolve from an area of East Anglia) and Gloucester was not granted vast estates in Gloucestershire (in fact he had zero estates in the area)

Edward in 1461 was obliged to grant his brothers the qualifying income for a duke - which was around 2,000 marks - and was even more generous to George -
We know quite a lot about what George got as he was heir presumptive - which included the county palatine of Chester (normally given to the heir presumptive) - he was also granted lands in Northumberland, Yorkshire, Kent and the West Country - by 1467 his income was around 5,600 Marks (less reversions and pensions etc)
George was declared of age in 1466 - it was clearly decided that his sphere of influence would be the north Midlands as that was where his largest land holdings were and his principal household and residence. His household ordinances from the period suggest a household of almost 400 people which would have easily outstripped his income.

Richard fared slightly worse - he was granted lands confiscated from Lancastrian peers including Somerset and the Earl of Oxford - but Edward IV kept taking them back to either restore them to Lancastrians accepting his rule or to give to someone else - Initially the two shared a household and then around the time of Edward IV's marriage Richard seems to have ended up in the Earl of Warwick's custody for a couple of years - until Richard was declared of age in 68/9 awarded more property and given a role in Wales.

So for your surviving Thomas - he is going to be closer to Richard's early days than George (who will remain heir presumptive) - he will likely be declared of age at around 16/17 and given some role in part of the country.

Thomas and Richard in the 1460s are far less significant than George.
 
Couple of points

All three royal brothers need a rich wife to maintain their style and position.
Both George and Richard were knighted, granted the garter and created Duke (they did not receive any subsiduary titles which was not unusual at that time) on their brother's accession.

Even at this period lands were not necessarily granted to correspond to the title - for example Clarence has no distinct regional association (though it is believed to devolve from an area of East Anglia) and Gloucester was not granted vast estates in Gloucestershire (in fact he had zero estates in the area)

Edward in 1461 was obliged to grant his brothers the qualifying income for a duke - which was around 2,000 marks - and was even more generous to George -
We know quite a lot about what George got as he was heir presumptive - which included the county palatine of Chester (normally given to the heir presumptive) - he was also granted lands in Northumberland, Yorkshire, Kent and the West Country - by 1467 his income was around 5,600 Marks (less reversions and pensions etc)
George was declared of age in 1466 - it was clearly decided that his sphere of influence would be the north Midlands as that was where his largest land holdings were and his principal household and residence. His household ordinances from the period suggest a household of almost 400 people which would have easily outstripped his income.

Richard fared slightly worse - he was granted lands confiscated from Lancastrian peers including Somerset and the Earl of Oxford - but Edward IV kept taking them back to either restore them to Lancastrians accepting his rule or to give to someone else - Initially the two shared a household and then around the time of Edward IV's marriage Richard seems to have ended up in the Earl of Warwick's custody for a couple of years - until Richard was declared of age in 68/9 awarded more property and given a role in Wales.

So for your surviving Thomas - he is going to be closer to Richard's early days than George (who will remain heir presumptive) - he will likely be declared of age at around 16/17 and given some role in part of the country.

Thomas and Richard in the 1460s are far less significant than George.

Alright, that is true. So where do you think Thomas could be given lands? Around the midlands/Befordshire area perhaps, or elsewhere in the south of the country?
 
I suppose land from the Earl of Devon, as well as from Oxford, could go to Thomas, and perhaps lands from Somerset as well?
 
My Thoughts: Catherine, as a wealthy widow, makes an excellent choice for a bride, particularly due to her connection to the Queen. They'd probably have between 3 and 6 children at minimum, so there's definitely going to be a royal Bedford line. With children who are double first cousins with the future Edward V of England, I can see him taking a less Richard III path and supporting the regency, particularly if he's close to his wife's family and definitely if his marriage was a love match. Let's say it was a partial love match and at Edward's death he protects the Woodville/Grey regency, which he would be a part of.

Funny thing is, with the continued Edwardian line on the throne, Richard is still the loyal Duke of Gloucester when the one-two punch of his son and wife dying occurs, leaving him an extremely eligible bachelor. While definitely low on the list of potential kings of England, he's a high standing court official with a good history and no real bad decisions at this point. We might actually see some form of match overseas, maybe a French match? Although, in 1485 when he'd marry at the earliest, the best option would be an Orleans girl, maybe Anne d'Orleans? He's low enough on the line of succession not to warrant a Princess even if there had been one available, but high enough not just to get some random nobleman's daughter. Anne d'Orleans if the 20-something youngest daughter of the Duke of Orleans, which is a good match. Add onto that high levels of piety (she was an Abbess OTL) and you've got a strong conservative couple at court to act as opposition to the younger groups. Even if it's childless or only produces a daughter, it's a great match.

Now with Thomas, he's most likely going to live until the 1500s. Edward died young and we have no real indication of how much longer Richard would have had, so we have to make guesses and I'm going to assume he'll make it to around 1505, giving him a few years of widowerhood. By then, his children are most likely married and the royal family is all buddy like.

With the reign of Edward V of England, I see a few things happening. The attempt of a marriage between himself and Anne I, Duchess of Brittany is never going to happen. France has too much riding on Brittany and they're not going to let the Dukedom fall into England's hands so easily. So I see that being dropped around the late 1480s, at the most until her OTL marriage to Charles VIII of France. If that goes down while Edward considers himself legally married to her in the way most Medieval marriages were. Thus, I can see war between England and France starting up again. Then, we might see a match between him and the Spanish Royal Family. I think Maria of Aragon around 1496/7 would definitely work, and would leave Catherine of Aragon as her parent's replacement bride come 1498.
On top of Edward's rejection, we also have the rejection of Elizabeth of York as a potential Queen of France. Thus, I can see her being offered as a bride to Maximilian of Austria after Mary of Burgundy's death, which would be supported by her aunt. Cecily of York would probably marry James IV of Scotland, while the rest would either also marry abroad or, more likely, at home. England was kinda drained for resources and that many Princesses is going to be hard to provide for. However, I can see maybe Anne of York marrying well, although it's be hard to say.
 
Interesting thoughts there Kynan, so a supported regency for Edward V, with Thomas potentially being more involved than Gloucester could've been. Would Elizabeth feel more safe with him involved, as he's married to her sister? And furthermore, would he be given the lord protectorship as his brother was otl?

Interesting, why do you think Gloucester's son and wife would still die as in otl?
 
Would the plight troth issue still come to light as well? Stillington might come forward to Clarence-if he still lives at this point-
 
Interesting thoughts there Kynan, so a supported regency for Edward V, with Thomas potentially being more involved than Gloucester could've been. Would Elizabeth feel more safe with him involved, as he's married to her sister? And furthermore, would he be given the lord protectorship as his brother was otl?

Interesting, why do you think Gloucester's son and wife would still die as in otl?

She seemed to be comfortable with Richard, Duke of Gloucester before he did the thing. Elizabeth Woodville seems to have mostly trusted the Duke of Gloucester, it was Clarence she seems not to have been so hot on, and rightfully so. Richard came to the throne out of no where, which is why it worked. Now Thomas is going to be just as loyal, but also married to her sister and father to her nieces and nephews, that's going to pretty much ensure loyalty.
 
She seemed to be comfortable with Richard, Duke of Gloucester before he did the thing. Elizabeth Woodville seems to have mostly trusted the Duke of Gloucester, it was Clarence she seems not to have been so hot on, and rightfully so. Richard came to the throne out of no where, which is why it worked. Now Thomas is going to be just as loyal, but also married to her sister and father to her nieces and nephews, that's going to pretty much ensure loyalty.
Hmm very true. Family tree? :p
 
Catherine Woodville (b.1458: d.1497) m. Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham (b.1454: d.1474) (a), Thomas of York, Duke of Bedford (b.1451: d.1504) (b)

1a) Cecily of Bedford (b.1479)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1482)

3a) Richard Plantagenet, Duke of Bedford (b.1483)

4a) William Plantagenet, Earl of Wiltshire (b.1485)

5a) Mary of Bedford (b.1487)

6a) Edmund Plantagenet (b.1490: d.1491)
Edward V of England (b.1470: d.1535) m. Maria of Aragon (b.1482: d.1517) (a)

1a) Edward VI of England (b.1499)

2a) Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b.1501)

3a) Elizabeth of England (b.1502)

4a) William, Duke of Lancaster (b.1504)

5a) Edmund of England (b.1505: d.1506)

6a) Catherine of England (b.1507)

7a) Miscarriage (c.1510)

8a) Thomas of England, Archbishop of York (b.1513)

9a) Margaret of England (b.1515: d.1515)
Richard of York, Duke of Gloucester (b.1452: d.1501) m. Anne Neville (b.1456: d,1485) (a), Anne d'Orleans (b.1464: d.1497) (b)

1a) Edward of Middleham (b.1473: d.1484)

2b) Eleanor of Gloucester (b.1488: d.1489)

3b) Joan of Gloucester (b.1491: d.1500)​
 
Alright interesting tree. Still
Uncertain as to why you think Edward of middle ham and Anne would die as they did otl
 
This is my rough version of an intro based on what I think gives the required results

Thomas of York, the fourth surviving son of Richard, 3rd Duke of York and Cecily Neville, was born in 1451, and grew up in the shadow of the war of the roses. When he was but nine years old, he was sent alongside his older brother George and his younger brother Richard, to Burgundy, whilst his father and brother Edmund were slain at Sandal Castle. He and his brothers returned to England, following their oldest brother Edward's victories at Mortimer Cross and Towton, where Edward was proclaimed King Edward IV.
The royal brother were soon enobled and granted an income and lands though the income from them was of course paid to the King during their minority.
Thomas was created Duke of Bedford and joined his brothers George and Richard in a household established for them by the King, they also had a residence in a tower at Greenwich Palace and their own staff.
However in 1465 the teenagers were separated as George received his own household in advance of being declared of age.

Gloucester and Bedford remained in their own household although Richard was nominally placed in the custody of his uncle the Earl of Warwick and would eventually join the Earl's household in northern England.
Bedford was clearly favoured by his brother due to his likeness to the deceased Earl of Rutland remained at court before being placed nominally in the custody of his uncle the Earl of Essex.

(The Essex link will enable you to have him in the Woodville circle if you want to head in that direction - Essex was married to Isabel sister of Richard Duke of York, his eldest son married Anne Woodville, his third son was the first husband of Anthony Woodville's wife Baroness Scales, he was the brother of the Archbishop of Canterbury, he was a prominant millitary leader and was well regarded by the King. Incidentally Essex's youngest son married the widowed Lady Elizabeth Grey Baroness Grey of Groby who was mother in law to Elizabeth Woodville - the bride was considerably older than her new husband.)

Like his brother George he was declared of age at 16 in 1467 and took possession of his estates - his brother had granted him lands to the value of 2,500 marks in 12 counties - in 1469 he was appointed Constable of England and replaced William Lord Hastings as Chief Justice of North Wales. (both these in otl went to Richard but if Thomas is the elder brother it makes more sense for him to get them) - he established his main residence at Wigmore Castle (formerly a principal seat of the Mortimer family)

He joined his younger brother Richard in exile at his sister's court in Burgundy after Warwick's rebellion. He was wounded at the Battle of Barnet but soon recovered.

Whilst his brother's argued over the Neville Inheritance he returned to the Welsh borders and continued his expansion of his home at Wigmore - in 1473 the Duke was appointed to the council of the Prince of Wales alongside the Prince's governor Anthony Earl Rivers - the administration of Wales being split between the King's brother and brother in law.

In 1473 the 18 year old Duke of Buckingham was declared of age and under normal circumstances would have exercised considerable influence in Wales and the Marches where many of his lands lay - however he was blocked by the King and the Prince of Wales' Council from being able to do so. However the young Duke would die in late 1473.
In law the Dukedom and the entailed lands would pass to the three year old 2nd Earl of Wiltshire the Duke's cousin - whose wardship and marriage were given to the Duke of Bedford.

In April 1474 the Duke of Bedford would marry Catherine Woodville Dowager Duchess of Buckingham. It is alleged it was a love match though Catherine's jointure was 1,000 marks a year which would have significantly raised the Duke's income which by the mid 1470s had been raised to around 3,000 marks - he was also granted further lands following the Duke of Clarence's fall.

In addition it was noted that in the event of the death of Anne Neville (the widow of the first Duke, grandmother of the second Duke and aunt to Edward IV and his brothers) many of the unentailed Buckingham lands might pass to the Duke and Duchess of Bedford.

The Duke and his Duchess remained high in royal favour throughout the 1470s - their principal homes included Wigmore Castle, Thornbury Castle (which Catherine held as part of her jointure), and Penshurst Place in Kent (again held by Catherine as part of her jointure)

The couple spent lavishly and maintained a large household of around 300 persons according to a surviving account.

Issue of Thomas Duke of Bedford and Catherine Woodville up to 1483

a) Edward created Earl of Hereford b 1475
b) Elizabeth b 1476 betrothed 1480 to Edward Stafford 3rd Duke of Buckingham, 2nd Earl of Wiltshire
c) Thomas b 1478
d) Anne b1480

Regarding the children's names (Edward for the King, Elizabeth in honour of the Queen, Thomas for his father, Anne in honour of Anne Neville Duchess of Buckinhgam who died that year) Elizabeth Plantagenet's betrothal is bound to happen it makes sense - and Thomas has custody of the new Duke so why not ensure a successful marriage for his daughter snapping up the only non Royal Duke in England
 
Alright, I like that, reads well, and fits in well with what I'm thinking for this. A question, was it inevitable then that Edward would have to flee to exile, even with an extra brother around who could summon men to arms?
 
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