Thomas of York marries Catherine woodville

So here's a random thought, Thomas of York the child between George and Richard, born in 1451 and dead later thT year, survives and following his brothers ascension to the throne is confirmed as duke of Bedford. And is wed to Catherine woodville sister to the queen. How likely is this? What consequences might there be for this later down the line?
 
Interestingly almost none of the Woodville girls really provided that much influence for the Queen's family during their marriages and in the immediate period after the death of Edward IV. (all of them married within the court circles of the House of York but many of them already had family connections to their grooms)

Assuming Thomas survives then in the mid-1460s the King has three brother's to provide for financially so wasting him on his wife's youngest sister is probably unlikely given that the royal brother's needed wealthy wives to avoid Edward having to hand over crown lands to them. Also in the late 1460s Edward avoided attainting Lancastrian nobles if he could help it as long as they accepted his rule so he wasn't exactly flush with the dosh.

Your other option would be a love match but falling for Catherine would be a little unusual given she was the Queen's youngest sister and was only born in around 1458. (there is the story that is popular in Ricardian circles that she was older than her husband who was furious with the match the reality is that her age is given in the IPM on her brother Richard last Earl Rivers in 1492 when she is described as being 34 or so - she is almost certainly her parents last child)

To have her still free in the mid 1470's when she was of age would be unusual given her sister and parents would have been looking for a match for her from the Queen's marriage - her sister's were all married to Yorkist peers - and in otl she was married to Buckingham because his wardship was awarded to the Queen so his marriage fell to her (though it is unlikely Elizabeth would have acted without Edward's tacit consent)

One option is she married Buckingham as a child of nine or so as in otl - Buckingham then dies somewhere between 1472 and 4 ish making Catherine a wealthy widow (particularly given that Edward was rather fond of endowing his family at the expense of the legal heirs most of whom fell on the Lancastrian side) - she then falls for the King's brother and marries Thomas of York thereafter (and Edward settles the bulk of the Buckingham estates on the couple instead of letting it pass to the Stafford co heirs) and settles down to producing kids (she had four with Buckingham between 1478 and his death in otl).
 
Interestingly almost none of the Woodville girls really provided that much influence for the Queen's family during their marriages and in the immediate period after the death of Edward IV. (all of them married within the court circles of the House of York but many of them already had family connections to their grooms)

Assuming Thomas survives then in the mid-1460s the King has three brother's to provide for financially so wasting him on his wife's youngest sister is probably unlikely given that the royal brother's needed wealthy wives to avoid Edward having to hand over crown lands to them. Also in the late 1460s Edward avoided attainting Lancastrian nobles if he could help it as long as they accepted his rule so he wasn't exactly flush with the dosh.

Your other option would be a love match but falling for Catherine would be a little unusual given she was the Queen's youngest sister and was only born in around 1458. (there is the story that is popular in Ricardian circles that she was older than her husband who was furious with the match the reality is that her age is given in the IPM on her brother Richard last Earl Rivers in 1492 when she is described as being 34 or so - she is almost certainly her parents last child)

To have her still free in the mid 1470's when she was of age would be unusual given her sister and parents would have been looking for a match for her from the Queen's marriage - her sister's were all married to Yorkist peers - and in otl she was married to Buckingham because his wardship was awarded to the Queen so his marriage fell to her (though it is unlikely Elizabeth would have acted without Edward's tacit consent)

One option is she married Buckingham as a child of nine or so as in otl - Buckingham then dies somewhere between 1472 and 4 ish making Catherine a wealthy widow (particularly given that Edward was rather fond of endowing his family at the expense of the legal heirs most of whom fell on the Lancastrian side) - she then falls for the King's brother and marries Thomas of York thereafter (and Edward settles the bulk of the Buckingham estates on the couple instead of letting it pass to the Stafford co heirs) and settles down to producing kids (she had four with Buckingham between 1478 and his death in otl).

Hmm that would be quite interesting. Say one were to go with that option, would
Thomas have remained inward into the early 1470s then? And if so what titles might he have been given before?
 
The King's brothers got their Dukedoms at Edward's accession when they were all still children (both were Duke's at his coronation if my memory serves) - in terms of Dukedom's associated with the Crown that were still free - Clarence (obviously), York (merged with the crown on Edward's accession), Bedford (extinct), Gloucester (extinct) - to keep it simply we an maybe assume Edward will follow Henry IV's example - so it will be George, Duke of Clarence; Thomas Duke of Bedford, and Richard Duke of Gloucester.

In OTL George and Richard married relatively late especially considering George was heir presumptive for most of the 1460s. After Edward's marriage and the birth of three daughters it would have been widely assumed that the Queen would eventually produce a son so the attractiveness of the Royal Brother's probably decreases somewhat.

Warwick is probably more likely to imagine Isabel and Anne for George and Thomas than George and Richard as in otl - his daughter's were great heiresses and closely related to the royal brother's - though Edward was opposed to the matches in OTL and is likely to do the same in this one.

Thomas like his brother George in otl might be proposed as a husband for Mary of Burgundy through the influence of their sister Margaret as well.

So say everything happens as in OTL - except Thomas joins Richard in being loyal to Edward during the readaption - George is restored to favour and is still married to Isabel Neville (hoping to hold the whole of his late father in law's assets) - Thomas and Richard remain unmarried (they are only in there only 20s so its not really that unusual - Edmund of Langley Duke of York was around 30 when he married for example) - so it is quite feasible for Thomas' eyes to fall on the wealthy teenage Duchess of Buckingham in say 73/74 given she will probably be in the household of his sister in law at that period.
 
alright that sounds good and makes sense. I suppose the duke of Buckingham could die around 1472 from an illness perhaps.

With Thomas around and commanding men-would he be based in the Midlands?- vould Edward avoid fleeing to exile?
 
A lot depends on his personality. You could alternatively marry her to somehow still single surviving Edmund, about whom we have a bit more info.
 
Hmm aye. For Thomas Persobality wise what would be interesting? Loyal and strict? Or loyal and cunning?

You could have him be a dupe...that would be pretty unique for that family, and serve the Wydevilles well. Or more like their father; rigid, proud and resourceful. Or like their mother, loyal, fierce and remote. Or Margaret, loyal, warm and charismatic. (These are my conceptions, btw.) Or very religious a la Richard and Cecilly, but with George's streak of mercurial chicanery. Eh, endless possibilities.
 
You could have him be a dupe...that would be pretty unique for that family, and serve the Wydevilles well. Or more like their father; rigid, proud and resourceful. Or like their mother, loyal, fierce and remote. Or Margaret, loyal, warm and charismatic. (These are my conceptions, btw.) Or very religious a la Richard and Cecilly, but with George's streak of mercurial chicanery. Eh, endless possibilities.
Hmm interesting, would having him be like his father be interesting? Especially if something like the plight troth comes to light and he's married to Catherine?
 
Lol well given the plight troth almost certainly didn't exist good luck!!! It didn't make much difference to Buckingham's actions being married to Catherine Woodville in early 1483 - and nor did his Woodville wife bring him any influence with the King who largely ignored him in the previous decade.

Edmund is harder I think - it is a big age difference and the chances of Edmund remaining unmarried into his mid thirties are slim.
There's also a much better financial bet for the York brothers - Margaret Beaufort became a widow again in 1471 and her estates are big pickings for an ambitious Yorkist - would you chose Lord Stanley over one of the King's brothers?
 
Lol well given the plight troth almost certainly didn't exist good luck!!! It didn't make much difference to Buckingham's actions being married to Catherine Woodville in early 1483 - and nor did his Woodville wife bring him any influence with the King who largely ignored him in the previous decade.

Edmund is harder I think - it is a big age difference and the chances of Edmund remaining unmarried into his mid thirties are slim.
There's also a much better financial bet for the York brothers - Margaret Beaufort became a widow again in 1471 and her estates are big pickings for an ambitious Yorkist - would you chose Lord Stanley over one of the King's brothers?
Very true. So would Thomas be a man who'd keep his nephew on the throne unless he harboured ambitions himself. And Margaret Beaufort would be very interesting as that might lessen her scheming for Henry.

As for Edmund who might realistic marriages for him be?
 
Well Edward's early death without an adult male heir left a power vacuum and Richard rushed in to fill it with considerable ease and speed which to me suggests a) that the Queen's family really had gained little in terms of influence and power or acted as a group b) that he saw an opportunity.
More surviving uncle's would probably mean a smoother succession in 1483 but we don't know if they will get on or not of course.
You can't rule out Thomas or even a surviving Edmund reaching for the throne in 1483 irrespective of who they are married to but it certainly rules out Richard doing so - given he would be even further down the succession and then it is a matter of whose side he takes though I think it makes a usurpation less likely.
Margaret Beaufort was pretty well liked by Edward IV - she was a popular figure at court and was godmother to one of his daughter's - her marriage to Stanley was in part to keep up a position at the restored Yorkist court - she will always scheme for her son but until Edward IV's death that scheming was pretty limited to getting him home and able to inherit her estates - she may find herself with influence but deprived of the ability to dictate her inheritance if she married a royal brother - Edward will probably commit her estates to that brother for life irrespective of whether the marriage is childless or not (pretty much similar to the way he dealt with the Exeter and Neville estates)
 
Alright that does make sense. I do picture Thomas and Richard getting along, though disagreeing over some things.
 
So I suppose before his marriage to Catherine, Thomas would be duke of Bedford, perhaps earl Of Bedford as well and perhaps earl of kendall? And after titled duke of Buckingham? What lands did that dukedom have?
 
So how does this sound for a brief introduction: Thomas of York, the fourth surviving son of Richard, 3rd Duke of York and Cecily Neville, was born in 1451, and grew up in the shadow of the war of the roses. When he was but nine years old, he was sent alongside his older brother George and his younger brother Richard, to Burgundy, whilst his father and brother Edmund were slain at Sandal Castle. He and his brothers returned to England, following their oldest brother Edward's victories at Mortimer Cross and Towton, where Edward was proclaimed King Edward IV. Thomas was created Duke of Bedford, Earl of Kendall and Earl of Carlisle following his brother's victories. Raised at court, whilst his brother Richard was raised in Middleham, he soon came to know more about the intracacies of court game play, than many other boys his age. A quick learner he soon saw the importance of keeping his secrets close to his chest. When his brother married Elizabeth Woodville, the young Thomas, who was serving as his brother's squire, was present at the wedding, and swore a vow of secrecy to his brother and King. He spent most of his teenage years at court, where he observed the growing tension between his brother and cousin, the Earl of Warwick, whilst also seeing the growing influence of the Queen and her Woodville kin. Upon reaching adulthood in 1469, Thomas was given livery of his estates, and advanced northward to settle his affairs, and remove the men placed by his brother to govern them for him, accompaying him was Rob Aspell a man who had served as a friend and companion for his brother Edmund. Thomas, soon struck a chord with the people of Bedford, whilst also getting some traction with the people of Kendall, he would not visit Carlisle though, before word reached him of his brother Geroge's mad dash with Warwick to Calais, to marry Isabel Neville.
 
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