Thomas Howard, and a string of deaths in the Tudor family

Should Mary Tudor Be Queen in her own right, or should there be a succession war?

  • Queen in own right

    Votes: 3 75.0%
  • Succession war

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4
  • Poll closed .
So, this is something I've long been fascinated by. The Howards rose to prominence under the Yorkist regime, and then became powerful figures under the Tudors, Thomas Howard married Anne of York and apparently had a son by her who died in 1508, said son was also named Thomas.

My idea, is sort of this: In 1502, Arthur Tudor and Margaret Tudor both die, followed quickly by Elizabeth of York in 1503, Henry VIII, then follows in 1505. This leaves Mary Tudor as Henry VII's heiress, but Henry is himself ailing and probably staring down a succession issue.

What does he do then? Look to remarry and try and sire heirs, or does he look to marry Mary off to someone?

Essentially, my question is is this scenario enough to get Thomas Howard on the throne, or would it need something else? And also, is the scenario I;ve proposed interesting enough to warrant its own timeline?

@BlueFlowwer @FalconHonour @Kellan Sullivan @isabella @desmirelle @JonasResende @Tyler96
 
I'd say Henry might have more of a need to remarry than OTL. Probably he'd wed Katherine of Aragon instead of his son. Whether there'd be any kids is up to you. But let's say there are, albeit only girls (maybe a stillborn boy or two).

The thing is, by trying to remarry OTL, Henry ATTEMPTED to prove that the right to the throne came from HIM and not EoY. So, him marrying Mary to Surrey's son is a little counterproductive. He could just as easily wed her to the earl of Worcester's son (b.1496) or a Pole boy, ( Buckingham's boy is a bit young, but I don't think that'll stop Stafford). Mary marrying Howard sends the wrong idea that she needs to wed a York to be sure of her throne when really, she needs a husband strong/powerful enough to see all comers. Henry needs to be able to establish that a) Mary rules by virtue of her descent from HENRY and b) that SHE is not a mere consort (to be kept in a state of never ending pregnancy while her husband rules à la Victoria or Maria II of Portugal) but queen regnant. James IV would do nicely for this were it not for the 20 year age gap. He's a foreign ruler (so has no client base in England) who is neither Yorkist nor Lancastrian (he has Beaufort blood but a lot of people - including Anne Boleyn IIRC -did) and he has his own kingdom to worry about, so he can't meddle in Mary's kingdom too much
 
If there were to be a Howard King, it would have to be Anne of York's son, not his father, as far as I can see. And Henry VII would never countenance losing the throne to a Howard. Maybe if he dies earlier than OTL without a son, with Mary as his heiress, the young Mary can be forced into a marriage for the sake of keeping the country stable, but that's the only way I could see it working..
 
Interesting so most likely scenario is that Henry VII has to die shortly after his son the duke of York then Thomas Howard leaps in and arranged a marriage between his son and Mary to keep the peace?
 
Interesting so most likely scenario is that Henry VII has to die shortly after his son the duke of York then Thomas Howard leaps in and arranged a marriage between his son and Mary to keep the peace?

Would that go smoothly, though? I imagine plenty of others would be tempted to jump in and we Mary them self to claim the throne.

A lot depends on where Mary is and who is her custodian when Henry VII dies.

You also have a de la Pole or two floating around the continent, though I'm not sure they can do much.

The thing is, by trying to remarry OTL, Henry ATTEMPTED to prove that the right to the throne came from HIM and not EoY. So, him marrying Mary to Surrey's son is a little counterproductive. He could just as easily wed her to the earl of Worcester's son (b.1496) or a Pole boy, ( Buckingham's boy is a bit young, but I don't think that'll stop Stafford). Mary marrying Howard sends the wrong idea that she needs to wed a York to be sure of her throne when really, she needs a husband strong/powerful enough to see all comers.

Aren't the Pole boys also York-ish as grandsons of George of Clarence?
 
Would that go smoothly, though? I imagine plenty of others would be tempted to jump in and we Mary them self to claim the throne.

A lot depends on where Mary is and who is her custodian when Henry VII dies.

You also have a de la Pole or two floating around the continent, though I'm not sure they can do much.



Aren't the Pole boys also York-ish as grandsons of George of Clarence?

Hmm this is true, could Thomas use his status as the most powerful noble in the realm to convince Henry to put Mary in his and his wife's care?
 
Aren't the Pole boys also York-ish as grandsons of George of Clarence?

Yes. They are. Which is the point, all the boys listed (Worcester, Pole, de la Pole, Stafford) would've had a claim to the throne (in some form or fashion), and they can ALL tie up their claim nicely with Mary as consort. Henry VII established that the future monarch needed to descend from him, so he'd no doubt have a phobia of marrying Mary off to one of them.
 
Yes. They are. Which is the point, all the boys listed (Worcester, Pole, de la Pole, Stafford) would've had a claim to the throne (in some form or fashion), and they can ALL tie up their claim nicely with Mary as consort. Henry VII established that the future monarch needed to descend from him, so he'd no doubt have a phobia of marrying Mary off to one of them.

Very true, would he be able to control what happens if he dies after Henry, Duke of York in say 1506, when Mary is just ten?
 
Is this scenario more interesting than just having an outright war if the entirety of the House of Tudor dies?
 
Very true, would he be able to control what happens if he dies after Henry, Duke of York in say 1506, when Mary is just ten?

Margaret Beaufort will be regent until Mary comes of age, so that takes ys to 1509 - and this is a woman who survived six regime changes in her lifetime. Mary would be 13yo (old enough to marry) by 1509 (14 if you accept the theory of a 1495 birthdate for Mary). Most likely, Mags has her granddaughter set to marry (if not already wed) by then.
 
Margaret Beaufort will be regent until Mary comes of age, so that takes ys to 1509 - and this is a woman who survived six regime changes in her lifetime. Mary would be 13yo (old enough to marry) by 1509 (14 if you accept the theory of a 1495 birthdate for Mary). Most likely, Mags has her granddaughter set to marry (if not already wed) by then.

Alright interesting, who would she look to marry Mary to? Someone domestic or a foreign marriage?
 
If Margaret Beaufort has anything to do with it, she'll want a foreign match for Mary. She'll want the recognition for the Tudor dynasty. Whether any other country will want to touch the Tudors with a bargepole after their slew of bad luck dynastic wise will be another question altogether!
 
If Margaret Beaufort has anything to do with it, she'll want a foreign match for Mary. She'll want the recognition for the Tudor dynasty. Whether any other country will want to touch the Tudors with a bargepole after their slew of bad luck dynastic wise will be another question altogether!

Agreed, I do wonder, might James IV put himself forward, or would he look to marry elsewhere given the vast age difference between the two.
 
Still kinda torn over whether I want Howard on the throne through a succession war, or to see how Mary does s Queen herself aha
 
If there is a succession war I'm thinking it would likely take place in the late 1500s, before the 1510s are seen in.

The causes:

Arthur and Margaret Tudor would die in 1502, causing James IV to look elsewhere for a wife. In 1503, Elizabeth of York dies giving birth to a stillborn child. In 1506, Henry VII alongside his two remaining children Henry, Duke of York and Mary Tudor both die as a result of the sweating sickness striking hard.

Catherine of Aragon ventures back to Spain, a widow, and now twenty years of age. England's succession is a clear mess.

If one wishes for Mary Tudor to rule in her own right, it could go like this:

Arthur and Margaret die in 1502, Liz of York n 1503, Henry, Duke of York in 1505, Henry VII in 1507, before any attempt to try and amrry again can be formally made. Mary is proclaimed Queen aged eleven.
 
If you want a Howard England/Britain why not go with Mary, Queen of Scots, accepting the 4e duke of Norfolk's marriage proposal? He wed Mary FitzAlan in 1556, and Margaret Audley in 1558. Delay Mary Tudor's death until say 1560, kill François II a mite earlier (Henri II needs either to die before or shortly after Mary weds François, so to prevent her remarrying to Charles IX). Mary returns to Scotland, Mary Tudor proposes Darnley for her cousin (Mary Stuart seems like one of those people who would do exactly the opposite of what her cousin in England would tell her to). And Mary of Scots weds Norfolk (who leads the embassy to press Darnley's suit). Mary Tudor dies, Elizabeth died in 1559 (she nearly did OTL IIRC) and Mary, Queen of Scots, duchess of Norfolk becomes queen of England and Ireland
 
If you want a Howard England/Britain why not go with Mary, Queen of Scots, accepting the 4e duke of Norfolk's marriage proposal? He wed Mary FitzAlan in 1556, and Margaret Audley in 1558. Delay Mary Tudor's death until say 1560, kill François II a mite earlier (Henri II needs either to die before or shortly after Mary weds François, so to prevent her remarrying to Charles IX). Mary returns to Scotland, Mary Tudor proposes Darnley for her cousin (Mary Stuart seems like one of those people who would do exactly the opposite of what her cousin in England would tell her to). And Mary of Scots weds Norfolk (who leads the embassy to press Darnley's suit). Mary Tudor dies, Elizabeth died in 1559 (she nearly did OTL IIRC) and Mary, Queen of Scots, duchess of Norfolk becomes queen of England and Ireland

Oh that sounds very interesting and therefore brings about a Howard England and Scotland, which could make things very interesting. Would there be a Protestant resurgence here, or a firm Catholic settlement, and of course with the might of england behind her, Mary could well crush the protestant nobles in Scotland
 
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