Thomas Duke of Clarence does not die in 1421

THomas of Lancaster was the second son of Henry IV, and was his brother's heir until the birth of Henry VI in December 1421, he died at the battle of Bauge in 1421 as well, now what happens if instead of rushing off without his archers, Thomas waits and then takes his full force with him?

Say he survives the battle as well, what consequences might this have down the line?
 
Well, aside that it would be OOC from Clarence...

Franco-Scottish troops used most of the defensive capacities of the bridge and valley, meaning Clarence would have an hard time manoeuvring quickly : not only he would not beneficy from the IOTL surprise effect, but he would be in a rather bad offensive position.

See, Baugé is sort of mirror-universe Agincourt, tactically wise, except it really happened and with both sides were reversed.

At best, I'd expect Clarence to pull a retreat; but he simply might be captured along Exeter and Somerset and cease to play a real role until freed.
IOTL most of the battle benefits were lost at Verneuil, except for the immediate result on Valois organisation : I don't expect the alternate battle being that much more decisive for the rest of the war except a crushing Valois defeat which is quite unlikely.

At this point of the war, conflicts were (eventually) more about securing regional control, than decisive victory : it's how you ended with a North/South division in 1420's even with English victories, nobody really having the forces to undergo a larger conquest.
 
Well, aside that it would be OOC from Clarence...

Franco-Scottish troops used most of the defensive capacities of the bridge and valley, meaning Clarence would have an hard time manoeuvring quickly : not only he would not beneficy from the IOTL surprise effect, but he would be in a rather bad offensive position.

See, Baugé is sort of mirror-universe Agincourt, tactically wise, except it really happened and with both sides were reversed.

At best, I'd expect Clarence to pull a retreat; but he simply might be captured along Exeter and Somerset and cease to play a real role until freed.
IOTL most of the battle benefits were lost at Verneuil, except for the immediate result on Valois organisation : I don't expect the alternate battle being that much more decisive for the rest of the war except a crushing Valois defeat which is quite unlikely.

At this point of the war, conflicts were (eventually) more about securing regional control, than decisive victory : it's how you ended with a North/South division in 1420's even with English victories, nobody really having the forces to undergo a larger conquest.

Hmm true, and if he still went in gung ho, is there a way for him to avoid capture?
 
Well, Thomas Montagu did managed to escape capture but he lead archers and wasn't involved in the first part of the battle.

If Clarence lead the charge as IOTL and ends up as most of the men he lead dismounted before he can pull back, it'd be quite hard to have him doing the same, safe some stroke of luck.

All depends if he's willing to be slightly defeated or not, while it could decredibilize him as commander of the English forces in France (something that, later, Bedford wasn't willing to take and why he besieged Orléans, to give an equivalence, admittedly on a less immediatly risky decision). Frankly, his behavior in 1412, during his aquitain campaign, doesn't makes me that confident on such sudden realisation.
 
Well, Thomas Montagu did managed to escape capture but he lead archers and wasn't involved in the first part of the battle.

If Clarence lead the charge as IOTL and ends up as most of the men he lead dismounted before he can pull back, it'd be quite hard to have him doing the same, safe some stroke of luck.

All depends if he's willing to be slightly defeated or not, while it could decredibilize him as commander of the English forces in France (something that, later, Bedford wasn't willing to take and why he besieged Orléans, to give an equivalence, admittedly on a less immediatly risky decision). Frankly, his behavior in 1412, during his aquitain campaign, doesn't makes me that confident on such sudden realisation.

OKay, so it is likely he'd still be taken captive?
 
It would be better that Clarence realises how big the Franco-Scottish army was and decided to play safe by no attacking. So, he doesn't get killed and Henry V would not need necesarily go to France, avoiding getting sick of dysentery.
 
It would be better that Clarence realises how big the Franco-Scottish army was and decided to play safe by no attacking. So, he doesn't get killed and Henry V would not need necesarily go to France, avoiding getting sick of dysentery.

Hmm true, but then how does one make it so that he realises how much bigger that army is compared to his?
 
Perhaps by listening to the advice of his lieutenants, Huntingdon and Gilbert Umfraville.

Hmmm seems reasonable, and obviously if he doesn't engage then he doesn't die, and Henry V doesn't need to go scampering back to France immediately, perhaps leading to a more short term stability for English france
 
Perhaps by listening to the advice of his lieutenants, Huntingdon and Gilbert Umfraville.

Which would be slightly OOC from Clarence, tough : the man was quite a flmboyant prince, and getting stuck with such situation would probably decredibilize him as commander in France.

Anyway, it's a given that Henry V will go to France nevertheless : as said above, Baugé was part of a general set of campaigns where the "frontlines/borders" between Valois and Lancasters in France were set and which ended IOTL by following Loire, but at the time of the battle was much more complex (with Valois still holding much more places of importance north of the river).
 
Which would be slightly OOC from Clarence, tough : the man was quite a flmboyant prince, and getting stuck with such situation would probably decredibilize him as commander in France.

Anyway, it's a given that Henry V will go to France nevertheless : as said above, Baugé was part of a general set of campaigns where the "frontlines/borders" between Valois and Lancasters in France were set and which ended IOTL by following Loire, but at the time of the battle was much more complex (with Valois still holding much more places of importance north of the river).

Hmm true, though Henry went to France in 1422, because his brother buggered it up.

If Clarence was a prisoner instead of dead, would Henry still go to France in 22?
 
Hmm true, though Henry went to France in 1422, because his brother buggered it up.
That's eventually all the difference between immediate causes and situational causes. Both aren't incompatible.

If Clarence was a prisoner instead of dead, would Henry still go to France in 22?
I suspect so, would it be only to be in a more favourable situation in northern France as IOTL (you just don't let an ennemy army continuing to advance in Normandy when it's your main entry point on the continent).
 
That's eventually all the difference between immediate causes and situational causes. Both aren't incompatible.


I suspect so, would it be only to be in a more favourable situation in northern France as IOTL (you just don't let an ennemy army continuing to advance in Normandy when it's your main entry point on the continent).

Indeed very true, would a truce be agreed
 
Indeed very true, would a truce be agreed
I'm rambling, but I think this battle itself is a bit unconsequential either way, giving it didn't wheight much on the immediate results. If the TL roughly goes as History, you'd end with a de facto truce (or rather frozen conflict) once two clear zones of dominations are established along Loire.

A real and formal truce, however, seems quite unthinkable : at the contrary of Brétigny, both sides refused acknowledging de jure the situation.

More consequential, in terms of butterflies, would be different campaign of early 1420's (depending on its results, it could mean either an earlier Arras, a better situation for Valois, or suffering a more important moral and political blow than IOTL)
 
I'm rambling, but I think this battle itself is a bit unconsequential either way, giving it didn't wheight much on the immediate results. If the TL roughly goes as History, you'd end with a de facto truce (or rather frozen conflict) once two clear zones of dominations are established along Loire.

A real and formal truce, however, seems quite unthinkable : at the contrary of Brétigny, both sides refused acknowledging de jure the situation.

More consequential, in terms of butterflies, would be different campaign of early 1420's (depending on its results, it could mean either an earlier Arras, a better situation for Valois, or suffering a more important moral and political blow than IOTL)

interesting, would certainly create interesting circumstances
 
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