Thistles Among Roses - Nek's New TL

I've been thinking about this for a long while, but recent events sent me back to have a better look at the damn thing.

To best understand the ramifications of the POD, let's go back to history class: it's 1542. Scotland is paying the price for not joining England in rejecting Rome, and the armies of Henry VIII have humiliated the country, after a bloody defeat at Solway Moss. James V has just left the building, so the crown of Scotland falls to his days-old daughter, Mary.

The leading figures in the Scottish political scene at the time are:

* Marie of Guise, Queen Mother / Dowager and daughter of the House of Guise.
* Cardinal David Beaton, Archbishop of Edinburgh and oft-ambassador to France (arranged the marriage of James and Marie, for example).
* James Hamilton, Earl of Arran, first in line to the throne in the event of Mary's death. A Protestant and favourable to the English, IOTL he was made Regent, and aided in the peace treaty signing Mary over to the English (later broken).
* Matthew Stewart, Earl of Lennox, second in line to the throne in the event of Mary's death. A Catholic and figurehead of his faith's followers in the nobility, it seems fairly likely that he could raise considerable support in the event that he challenged Arran's succession to the throne.

Now, like it says in the Earl of Arran's biography up there, part of the peace treaty forced on the Scots after James' death concerned the betrothal of Mary to Prince Edward of England, with the obvious intent of binding Scotland's lands into England over the next few generations. IOTL this was repudiated by the Scottish Parliament, eight months later.

But what if they didn't?

Well, this is a daft question, on the face of it. Of course the Scots would repudiate a treaty that sold their Queen over the border, and turned them into a second Wales. No amount of incentive could persuade them to surrender the symbol of their country to... Englishmen.

So let's take the choice out of their hands. I propose a PoD where Marie of Guise insists on staying with her husband as he sickens and dies - fairly reasonable, even if it is dangerously close to the front, but it's difficult to argue with an incredibly powerful and distraught heavily pregnant woman. Solway Moss goes off as per OTL, but during the course of the battle it is pointed out to the English commander, Thomas Warton, that both the King of Scotland and his future heir lie a day or two's march away. Imagine the glory for England!

His fellow commanders, the Musgroves, attempt to convince him that this is madness. Such a plan is far too risky - the men need time to recover from the battle, they don't need to go marching off on some wild goose chase!

Well, it's my timeline, so I get to wave the magic wand. It succeeds. The Royal camp is in the process of decamping when it is caught completely unawares by three thousand delighted Englishmen. James V drops dead of shock, and Marie goes into labour. Mary, Queen of Scots, is born into English captivity.

Roughly six weeks later, Warton arrives at St. James's Palace with a woman and child among his entourage. Henry is shocked beyond all belief, and grants Wharton a baronry for his sterling work. Marie is sent back to France after a few months in the Tower, expressly forbidden from setting foot in the British Isles again, while Mary is given over to wet nurses. Equivalents to OTL's Treaties of Greenwich are drawn out, though at this point the marriage contract is merely a formality.

So let's take a look at the situation now. Mary is raised in England, and any attempt to remove her in favour of her heir has a strong chance of triggering civil war. The Protestants are on the rise under George Wishart, and the Anglican church looks set to be imposed on the populace.

And across the Channel, the House of Guise has just received one of its daughters, grieving and humiliated. France's age-old ally has been soundly trounced by England, with measures taken to make this permanent. Surely now is the time to act...


So yeah, that's the basics. I'd write more, actually expanding on the POD, but I am so damn tired right now. It's 4am. Be grateful I can type coherent sentences.

Thoughts?
 

Thande

Donor
Another Tudor TL, Nek? Seems like an interesting enough POD. Ironically, I'm currently listening to Henry VIII's Youtube channel as I saw your post.
 
Nekromans

Sounds an interesting scenario but with Mary being brought up in England and probably as a Protestant she could find a lot of opposition when she tries to 'return' to Scotland. It could also encourage Catholic feeling in Scotland, which could make the Reformation there even messier.

Alternatively, if Edward proves sickily again and dies young you could see the interesting situation of a Mary Queen of Scots as a widow fleeing the [probably short-lived] Catholic restoration under Mary! At that point everybody gets very confused. [Although checking she would only be 10-11 if Edward died in 1553 as OTL so while betrothed I doubt they would be married.

Steve
 
Sounds an interesting scenario but with Mary being brought up in England and probably as a Protestant she could find a lot of opposition when she tries to 'return' to Scotland. It could also encourage Catholic feeling in Scotland, which could make the Reformation there even messier.
I disagree.

Had Mary returned to Scotland a Protestant, it would have done a good job securing the reformation and the masses in Edinburgh would have secured her. A lot would depend on who replaced Darnley though, who as a Catholic would in ttl be ruled out...
 
I disagree.

Had Mary returned to Scotland a Protestant, it would have done a good job securing the reformation and the masses in Edinburgh would have secured her. A lot would depend on who replaced Darnley though, who as a Catholic would in ttl be ruled out...

It depends on what sort of Protestant, IMO. After all, Anglicanism is very different to the Calvinist doctrines espoused by Wishart and Knox, being (at the time) merely Catholicism translated into English, with the serial numbers filed off. I doubt the religious leaders would be especially pleased with, say, the religious laws of Elizabethan England implemented in Scotland.
 
After all, Anglicanism is very different to the Calvinist doctrines espoused by Wishart and Knox, being (at the time) merely Catholicism translated into English, with the serial numbers filed off.
Heh. I like the description, it's pretty accurate.:) Although there were low church (calvinistic) types trying to move the church their direction already, IIRC. The people behind Edward didn't spring out of nowhere, after all.
 
I disagree.

Had Mary returned to Scotland a Protestant, it would have done a good job securing the reformation and the masses in Edinburgh would have secured her. A lot would depend on who replaced Darnley though, who as a Catholic would in ttl be ruled out...

FletcherofSaltoun

I wasn't implying that Catholism would win, although without the problems caused by her behaviour OTL it might be better positioned. However if she's seem as an 'English' queen by both marriage and upbringing then there will be some national hostility to her which will reflect on her religion, even different versions of it.

As Nekromans points out the differences between Anglicanism and Calvinism will complicate matters further. Given that she will be seen to be essentially foreign and the religion of her and her husband - if he lives long enough to be married - will be opposed by both Catholics and Calvinists it could end up a 3 cornered fight, along with as I say a Mary led attempted Counter-Reformation in England.

Steve

Steve
 
FletcherofSaltoun

I wasn't implying that Catholism would win, although without the problems caused by her behaviour OTL it might be better positioned. However if she's seem as an 'English' queen by both marriage and upbringing then there will be some national hostility to her which will reflect on her religion, even different versions of it.

As Nekromans points out the differences between Anglicanism and Calvinism will complicate matters further. Given that she will be seen to be essentially foreign and the religion of her and her husband - if he lives long enough to be married - will be opposed by both Catholics and Calvinists it could end up a 3 cornered fight, along with as I say a Mary led attempted Counter-Reformation in England.

Steve

Steve

As I remember my A Level Tudor History (some 30 years ago now :)) both of Edward VI's regents, Protector Somerset and the Duke of Northumberland moved the state church in England further into the Protestant creed. Edward VI was showing signs of possible Calvinist tendancies before his early death due to the religious affiliations of his tutors.

The young Mary if she'd been brought up in the English court would have been exposed to those influences.

Once Mary I came to the throne she would have tried to reverse those influences as Mary QoS was not only the rightful Queen of Scotland but also an heir to the English throne through her English granny (Henry VIII's sister whose name I can't for the life of me remember:eek:).

As she'd be very young at the time you could well see her protestant tutors being replaced by catholics (were there Jesuits about then?) and quite possibily Mary still becoming the devout catholic of OTL. And if that were the case if Mary I had some inkling of her early demise she might very well make the catholic other Mary her heir in preference to the bastard daughter of the whore who supplanted her mother.

Or else you could have the child Mary been rushed to the borders during the confusion of the Lady Jane Gray incident after the death of Edward VI and returned to Scotland in an incident later romanitised by Sir Walter Scott. Which ever faction secured control of the young girl would then complete her education accordingly.

Or else the Duke of Northumberland using her in preference to Lady Jane and poor Mary suffering that poor girl's fate. The effect of that in Scotland you could well imagine!
 
Illuminating and interesting commentary there, david31.

Interesting start to the time line as usual, Nek.
 
As I remember my A Level Tudor History (some 30 years ago now :)) both of Edward VI's regents, Protector Somerset and the Duke of Northumberland moved the state church in England further into the Protestant creed. Edward VI was showing signs of possible Calvinist tendancies before his early death due to the religious affiliations of his tutors.

The young Mary if she'd been brought up in the English court would have been exposed to those influences.

Once Mary I came to the throne she would have tried to reverse those influences as Mary QoS was not only the rightful Queen of Scotland but also an heir to the English throne through her English granny (Henry VIII's sister whose name I can't for the life of me remember:eek:).

As she'd be very young at the time you could well see her protestant tutors being replaced by catholics (were there Jesuits about then?) and quite possibily Mary still becoming the devout catholic of OTL. And if that were the case if Mary I had some inkling of her early demise she might very well make the catholic other Mary her heir in preference to the bastard daughter of the whore who supplanted her mother.

Or else you could have the child Mary been rushed to the borders during the confusion of the Lady Jane Gray incident after the death of Edward VI and returned to Scotland in an incident later romanitised by Sir Walter Scott. Which ever faction secured control of the young girl would then complete her education accordingly.

Or else the Duke of Northumberland using her in preference to Lady Jane and poor Mary suffering that poor girl's fate. The effect of that in Scotland you could well imagine!

david31

On the question of Mary [QoS] religion I don't know how reliably a late conversion would have been? It didn't work for Elizebeth, although she was a bit older and of course held somewhat in contempt by the leading Catholics.

At the time Mary I became queen Mary QoS would have been about 10-11 and presumably would have been totally immersed in an English Protestant court. The death of her betrothed would have been a big factor, although much would have depended on how the two children got on. Also, instead of being the queen herself she now has Mary stepping in and probably a virtually total change in her personal staff as Protestants are replaced by Catholics loyal to the new queen.

I suspect the key factor would probably be how she got on with the people who had brought her up. If they had been strict and demanding it might be she would welcome the change. If there were people she had grown very used to, losing them and having all they believed in and taught her rejected and decried could make her rebellious and hostile. Especially if say the Catholics include a teacher who decides she needs discipline say.

As such she could go either way, having a conversion to Catholism, having her early Protestant upbringing strengthened by adversary or possibly even become cynical and mistrustful of all religious authority. [Which could make her heartless and Machiavellian or very tolerate if/when she gains power herself].

If she stays Protestant I can't see Mary having her killed as she didn't do that for Elizabeth, although this might have been close at times. Mary QoS has no direct claim to the English throne while the fact she is the rightful ruler of Scotland would mean problems with the Scots.

In fact, once Edward is dead, since there is no marriage plan to unite the thrones wouldn't there be an argument the Scots would call for her release and return to Edinburgh? [Depending on how things were going in Scotland various factions would have different aims]. A pliable [they think] young girl to be a figurehead and possible marriged off to a relative would be attractive to a number of factions I suspect.

Steve
 
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