This is maybe something taboo, but....

What If : A Surviving Ottoman Empire in "Decades of Darkness" World ?!

As we know it already, Jared's TL "Decades of Darkness" is a very old TL. Originally dating back to before the crash, it was restarted in 2004, very, VERY long before even the first notable mindless Ottoman-wank map ever appeared on this site. People were obviously less knowledgeable about Ottoman Empire back then, and even Pasha seems to be wasn't as knowledgeable in Ottoman history back then(or at least, wasn't as frustrated with the site as more recently... :p). Needless to say, Ottoman Empire was deconstructed by understandable handwaviums, and had Istanbul snatched by the Russians. Well, at least ITTL it made the later snowballed into a rather interesting-looking Imperial Democratic Continental Federation that pretty much dominates a lion share of Asia. :cool: I'm not sure if Russia Tsardom can even be a democracy with Ottoman Empire still intact, a party that will certainly be able AND motivated to promote unrest on Russian muslim territories when given the opportunity.
Needless to say that it didn't turn off my curiosity. It will certainly create an enormous change on the DoD world, but exactly how enormous would it be ? With even an Ottoman Empire that's as large as OTL 1914 it can naturally possesses rather serious role in this alternate DoD world with minimal changes, most importantly as a buffer between Russian and German spheres, but it will certainly be more than that. India will be interesting to see here. How about Persia and Afghanistan, though ? It seems like Ottomans will be closer to Germany and firmly against Russia, with both former parties forming an axis to weaken Russia as much as possible. What will be the consequences of that and everything ?!
With an OE that's as large as Pasha's TL, I think it will shift even the general mindsets and paradigms the original DoD World has, but even this I think is still worthy of checkings and comparings, with this Ottoman Empire being in the same world as a slave-holding USA and a revitalized HRE.... :cool:
 
Hmmm. Only thing I can see is that the Russians are allowed to annex Bulgaria, in coordination with Wallachia and Moldavia. At the point that Russia annexed about half of the Balkans, it was clear that the Ottomans were doomed. Maybe the alt-Crimean War goes better?

A Russian Europe stillborn would mitigate Russian involvement elsewhere in the Continent, and no Second Napoleonic Wars. And even if there were, France would be in a far worse position. I see Russia losing interest in Europe, choosing instead to devour Asia...
 
Hmmm. Only thing I can see is that the Russians are allowed to annex Bulgaria, in coordination with Wallachia and Moldavia. At the point that Russia annexed about half of the Balkans, it was clear that the Ottomans were doomed. Maybe the alt-Crimean War goes better?

A Russian Europe stillborn would mitigate Russian involvement elsewhere in the Continent, and no Second Napoleonic Wars. And even if there were, France would be in a far worse position. I see Russia losing interest in Europe, choosing instead to devour Asia...

Hmm...well there is a fundamental problem here, that is myself haven't actually read the TL yet. And indeed, Jared chose the time frame of during Napoleonic War as to get the whole thing, including the Ottoman collapse, which would be rather realistic with PoD during the Napoleonic chaos, with them just finally awaken from stagnation not to long ago, and Russia being an emerging modernizing power at the time. By the, when was TTL's equivalent of Crimean War happening, if there was one ?

But really, how exactly was the process of Ottoman collapse running in TTL, step by step ? Or at least, basically ? My general impression that it is made in rather large part by handwaviums produced by butterflies, although rather forgivable given the general PoD of TTL being during the Napoleonic Era. Mind me though, if I have happened to underestimate Jared's knowledge on Ottoman Empire to much....

Though, if my general impression is correct, it will be actually quite easy to keep Ottomans surviving in this DoD World, especially if with minimal butterflies that still allows DoD's United German Reich to form. The main PoD happened far across the Atlantic, and that certainly would have little way to affect the dynamics in the contemporary Europe immediately . IOTL Ottomans managed to get through the Napoleonic period, so why not ITTL ?

Ottoman Empire surviving into just its OTL 1914 form, would greatly alter DoD world ! At the very least, German sphere in Africa won't be in as whole merely German protectorate. Imagine, a German-Ottoman axis conspiring in promoting unrest in many of British and French Islamic colonies ! :eek: British in India will be likely to meet a thrilling jeopardy in this scenario....

Ottoman Empire with the size Pasha is planning for his TL, "white-patronage" racism will sooo going to face a dire threat even before being able to crystallize.....
 
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"Ottoman Survives in DOD" Version I

Okay, so this is my (first) take on Ottoman surviving in DoD world scenario. Needless to say it's quite rough, so criticisms are certainly be welcomed.

- Ottoman Empire is in pretty much OTL 1914's shape, only with the addition of Thrace and Salonika. Of course, it got some more little additions after the war with Britain and France, namely Kuwait and Aden, and while British Arabia wasn't directly annexed, the-now Union of Southeast Arabia is a closely-tied to Ottomans as prety much a client state. The brighter green than Ottoman green though, doesn't necessarily indicate de-facto Ottoman subordinate, but as independent Islamic states which acknowledge the Caliph of Constantinople. Egypt is quite independent, in Egyptian proper at least, with both Ottoman and German influences are amount roughly equal. Egyptian Sudan though, of course administered by dual-control with Germany.

- This is this alt-DOD's version of 1935. Africa colonization has gone a little bit different. French possession in West Africa was bigger than original DOD's, and actually closer to OTL's case, except without a part of Mauritania which possess coastline, and of course, pretty much different border adjustments. German Libya was and is still smaller than original DoD's. Most of OTL's Niger and Chad belonged to British' Nigeria-Cameroon-Ubangi fusion colony ITTL. And also, the things that was simply forgotten or ignored in the original DoD : the effect in East Africa of British occupation of Egypt. In original it was simply forgotten that Zanzinbar sphere got dissolved by Germany made British presence in Egypt into hostage to acquire Tanganyika. In this scenario though, it was the French !! France, before the Great War, was actually beginning to lean to Germany, but somethings happened, and they eventually buddy buddy with British again, only to be defeated. And Tanganyika fell to Germany eventually anyway....

- After the wars equivalent to DoD's wars between Germany (ITTL with an Ottoman ally. And Russia chose to be neutral for the most of the time) and British-French alliance, indeed because both British and French homelands got utterly destroyed by Germany, naturally all of their directly controlled African colonies fall into German hands. The Germans though, applied a different design of control to them, rather than just using the old design. With more focus in more profitable and/or easier to control territories, places which were considered better to be autonomous, were made autonomous. The lighter grays indicated this autonomous, more of protectorate/dominion colonies. Traditional Hausa-Fulani sphere, the areas of OTL Chad, Algeria, Tunis, and Tuareg territories fall into this kind of arrangement. This in part was a result of good relations with Ottoman Empire (ITTL, instead of France, Germany became the main source of capital for Ottoman's development and modernization). The rest of British Nigeria-Cameroon-Ubangi colony was added to enlarge German Equatoria. In Gold Coast colony, Dagoba (sp) and Ashanti was made into equivalent of Indian princely states. Congo was purchased from Aragon, and not so immediately later, fused with Germany's eastern African colonies to be made into a united Mittleafrika. And the last, Somalia was devided into French and German parts prior to the war, but now united into a single independent Somalian Republic.

- In Asia, German East Indies got extended to Malaya, Northern Kalimantan and muslim part of Mindanao in British expenses. East Indies ITTL also got elevated into an autonomous dominion. But of course, it is still essentially a Germany's economic colony, but still that the country's now operated by native Indonesians, or at least citizens of the Dominion (of course, mostly still by natives). Islam's position in this dominion's politics is prevalent, as this dominion, in most part, was made into existence to respect Islam. Not all part of East Indies joined this dominion though, since the predominantly Christian Eastern Nusa Tenggara stays a separate colonial unit, because being predominantly Christian. Ceylon is light grey, because actually you don't have to an Islamic country to become an autonomous protectorate. After all, the main importance of the country for Germany is its geographic position for naval base. Philippines also fell to the Germans, and is now the center of German Pacific colonies. Persia, in order to check the Ottomans as so to not disturbing or bullying them, approach Germany, and largely succeeded. Arabia was already mentioned above. Myanmar is independent, but in no way dare to refuse most of Germany's demands to them, including giving back the formerly Thai territories that was incorporated to their own territory during under the British rule. The Thais though, in turn got their 3 southern most province given to the Islamic Dominion of East Indies.

- As for the dominions of the former British Empire, namely South Africa and Australia, didn't federated into any equivalent of Restored Empire, and got limited into just regional powers, and at that, not so much with South Africa. ITTL though, British managed to acquire Delagoa bay, hence Cape colony became the dominant in South Africa. I don't have enough knowledges to speculate anymore about it though.... :eek:

- Russia in this scenario also occupies Qinghai and a part of Gansu in addition to Tibet. Russia is not a democracy ITTL, but also a progressive autocracy so it is still not so much of a dark place, though not so bright either. Thanks to their neutrality during the war between Germany and France-Britain alliance their relations with Germany and OE have been mostly good, especially with the OE, who needs them to counterbalance German diplomatic power. Indeed, it is mostly due to OE's "affair" with Russia that there is some kind of a "respect Islam" competition between Russia and Germany, so Russia ITTL is rather generous to her muslim subjects, though with a little bit exception for the Kazakhs, but lately Russia's treatment towards has rather mellowed down for a bit. Since the time Germany has set themselves as the dominator of Central Europe, Russia has decided to live it alone and look towards Asia instead, hence the good relations with Germany and their general neutrality during the wars, and indeed good relationship with each other is on both Germany and Russia's top row of priority list, for both maintaining peace in the old world and to keep the goliath in the new one in check.

This world is pretty much an even more of a German wank compared to original DoD. They're pretty much THE Hyperpower of this world....

The other version of "Ottoman Surviving in DOD" will be post rather later. Again, criticisms will be very much welcomed ! :)

Decades of Darkness butchered with Ottomans version I.PNG
 
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Ottoman Survives in DOD, version II

This is the second version, with a bigger Ottoman Empire ! :D The year is 1910.

Due to so little time I had, I didn't manage convert it to UCS, instead it still stays in DoD's original color legend.

Ottoman Empire in this scenario, compared to the first version is obviously much stronger and more independent from Germany, and indeed from everyone, and also more liberal democratic, compared to the first version that is basically an Islamic conservative parliamentary monarchy, if still democratic....

With much stronger position OE possesses, she could afford to support the existence of few Islamic states, namely Sokoto Empire and Morocco.


Some problems I have about this scenario of mine, mainly about the colonial designs. With Ottoman Empire this big, but essentially directly borders with the German sphere, it ignites some curiosity in my part. Obviously now that with this kind of situation, bordering two giants in the north, OE has two options : keep Russia and Germany from being to close with each other, or instead grow closer with both of them and form a bloc of three Empire instead, but the second one would be to much for France and Britain if happens. This condition I think has the potential to pressure me into altering my current design for Africa, so suggestion and criticism will be very helpful. Also, it seems like the relationship between Ottoman Empire and Germany will be very close. If so, how Russia will respond to this ? It doesn't seem like confronting this axis will be in Russia's best interest, and if Russia then decides to enter this axis herself, Britain and France will be alarmed greatly. How will be the consequences of this situation in global politics, and thus, geopolitical compositions in elsewhere, especially in Asia ?

I'm also interested in the potentials of the Anti-Ottoman Russo-German axis scenario as well. Germany-Russia alliance WILL be a juggernaut but Ottoman-France-Briton alliance will rule the seas and surround the former. I think if this happens, this will an all out Great War. Germany and Russia in DoD are a stronger bunch compared to OTL, but without British Egypt, it actually means a richer, and thus better positioned British Empire due to lack of overstretch. So even if France is weaker, there is a thing to redeem it.

And one more thing, while we have a stronger and richer Germany while France is weaker and less as rich as OTL, I think the latter will still be interested in making pretty extensive investment in Ottoman Empire. And I have a rather hard time imagining why Germany won't be as interested : it will be much more efficient to gain profit rather than to just dissolve the empire after all. Though it seems that German capital will be largest of foreign capitals, but I can see France being the close second. That, added with a France that should be even more conscious about their weakness vis a vis Germany ITTL, I think this has a potential to be the beginning of a Franco-German-Ottoman bloc, while I know Franco-German relations won't be always harmonious, but it's not like France will be always buddy-buddy with the Brits as well...

So, in short, I'm confused about which alliance system among the above mentioned is the most likely to happen. So please, anyone, do comment... :eek:

Decades of Darkness butchered with Ottomans version II (1910).PNG
 
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