Third Time's The Charm: A World Without The Yugoslav Wars

To make a question regarding the spoilers:
-Will the plan be successful in this timeline? I know that the plan was accepted by the Turkish side, only to be rejected by the Greek side, and will there be any changes to plan?
I can see some changes happening inspired by the Yugoslavian Divorce. (For example people who moved there after the 1974 might get a solution similar to what happened to Croats and Slovenes staying in Yugoslavia and vice versa)
-Will Zogu try to get his kingdom as he tried to do in the 1997? I would really love to see him managing to get it, as the guy seems really weird and interesting, a diamond and gun smuggler with ties to Apartheid government becoming the King of Albania, whose father was a self-declared King, known for chain smoking and shooting at his assassins.
 
To make a question regarding the spoilers:


-Will the plan be successful in this timeline?
Yes, with modifications whose specifics I have yet to determine.

I know that the plan was accepted by the Turkish side, only to be rejected by the Greek side
IIRC the big things the Greek Cypriots took issue is the lack of eviction for settlers (settling your citizens in an occupied area is a war crime) or those who had bought stolen property, and incomplete right of return for Greeks to the North, as well as with the fact that Cyprus was gonna be demilitarized but have Turkish soldiers on it. The presence if Greek soldiers didn’t seem to help their fears.

I can see some changes happening inspired by the Yugoslavian Divorce. (For example people who moved there after the 1974 might get a solution similar to what happened to Croats and Slovenes staying in Yugoslavia and vice versa)
Maybe. I’m still trying to work out a satisfactory solution for the displaced people and settlers.

-Will Zogu try to get his kingdom as he tried to do in the 1997? I would really love to see him managing to get it, as the guy seems really weird and interesting, a diamond and gun smuggler with ties to Apartheid government becoming the King of Albania, whose father was a self-declared King, known for chain smoking and shooting at his assassins.
Try yes, but his big attempt will come later. Not sure if he’ll get it, but Zogist monarchism will be a notable political force in Albania at least in the 2000s.
 
Considering the report on the Yugoslav Divorce noted Iraq is drafting a new constitution after the April Fools Coup, what exactly happened there to cause the fall of Saddam in 1991 and not 2003?
 
Considering the report on the Yugoslav Divorce noted Iraq is drafting a new constitution after the April Fools Coup, what exactly happened there to cause the fall of Saddam in 1991 and not 2003?

Ah someone finally spotted it. It will be adressed when we finish up with early Yugoslavia.
 
Honestly, with how Grand Theft Auto IV had a Serbian protagonist whose background is shaped by being a soldier of the Republika Srpska, what could be an interesting “interlude” could be the impact of the lack of the Yugoslav Wars on Western pop culture.
 
Honestly, with how Grand Theft Auto IV had a Serbian protagonist whose background is shaped by being a soldier of the Republika Srpska, what could be an interesting “interlude” could be the impact of the lack of the Yugoslav Wars on Western pop culture.

Great idea though that will certainly take a lot of thinking.

I feel like for all their media presence when hey were happening, the Yugoslav wars had relatively little influence but IDK.

All I can think of is all the bands that did charity concerts in Sarajevo, the explosion of interest in militant turbofolk and stereotypes of Balkan instability in Western meme culture, the creation of A Serbian Film, Niko Bellic, and maybe very surface level Balkan flavouring in a few movies.

The big impacts I think will be in who did and did not emigrate to the West. Musicians like Dua Lipa, for example. The big thing is athletes. Just soccer thinking of players, Canada’s Borjan, Switerland’s Shaqiri, & Australia’s Degenek come to mind off the bat. Raonić in Canadian tennis.

I guess Kusturica is relevant in Western European pop culture. He’s probably gonna be more of a Yugoslav than a Serb ITTL and might not revert to Orthodoxy though he would probably still know and be open about the fact that his ancestors, prior to adopting Islam, were Serbs, as he is IOTL, just in the different climate would probably interpret it in a more brotherhood and unity focused way. Not sure if this means he’s still friends with people like OTL’s Putin. It would be funny to have him still be chummy with Milorad Dodik who ITTL has a drastically different political career.

Johnny Depp’s friendliness with Yugoslavia might be less controversial and thus more open than his OTL chumminess with Serbia that exists via Kusturica, without the reputation for war crimes and continued semi pariah status that Serbia seems to have in OTL in Western minds.
 
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All I can think of is all the bands that did charity concerts in Sarajevo, the explosion of interest in militant turbofolk and stereotypes of Balkan instability in Western meme culture, the creation of A Serbian Film, Niko Bellic, and maybe very surface level Balkan flavouring in a few movies.

A movie that would probably have a Pakistani or an unreconstructed Ba’athist as its villain ITTL, with that in mind as the main theme would still be about the state of the Russian nuclear arsenal.
 

A movie that would probably have a Pakistani or an unreconstructed Ba’athist as its villain ITTL, with that in mind as the main theme would still be about the state of the Russian nuclear arsenal.

Quite the obscure movie but yeah perhaps. There is another option but Pakistan makes good sense.

PALE MENTIONED (my cottage is right on the boundary with the Pale municipality and a neighbouring one).

Why do they go out of their way to not explicitly say Gavrić is a Serb though.
Like, it makes sense that a Serb is opposed to “foreigners selling weapons in the Yugoslav wars” and has connections in Russia, but then why not just go all the way and say he’s a Bosnian Serb.
They made him Orthodox, gave him a SUPER Serbian name, have the balls to say “the villain of this movie is a Serb” instead of making him obviously a Serb but then saying he’s “an anti-war Bosnian with no allegiance to any side in the war”.
He doesn’t sound so blankly evil that it would look like they’re casting all Serbs as inherent villains. He seems complex with at least not totally evil motivations. To a Serb, thus a person this might offend, it looks like the villain is a Serb anyway, so those who would be offended will be. They should just commit fully to the villain being a Serb instead of half-assing neutrality.
 
I’ve suddenly been hit with an urge to do a deep dive into the Yugoslav arms industry of TTL so once I finish the current post, and the transit post because I think it’s a cool thing and adds some nice non-political flavour to the TL early on, I’m tempted to go off my schedule and do posts on SOKO Aeronautics and the equipment of the Yugoslav Army.

Just had some ideas you all might enjoy. If anyone knows about military equipment, and in particular planes and drones, let me know.

I haven’t the foggiest clue about some of these things and I want to know things like what would be a realistic number of drones for SOKO to produce, what kinds of planes make sense, etc.
 
Don’t understand why Alija Izetbegovic is portrayed as a villain. He was incompetent and naive but not a supporter of war crimes or genocides and he want an SS member either, that’s a complete falsification. The young Muslims org was accused of collaborating with SS but that wasn’t proven and he was released.
 
I’ve suddenly been hit with an urge to do a deep dive into the Yugoslav arms industry of TTL so once I finish the current post, and the transit post because I think it’s a cool thing and adds some nice non-political flavour to the TL early on, I’m tempted to go off my schedule and do posts on SOKO Aeronautics and the equipment of the Yugoslav Army.

Just had some ideas you all might enjoy. If anyone knows about military equipment, and in particular planes and drones, let me know.

I haven’t the foggiest clue about some of these things and I want to know things like what would be a realistic number of drones for SOKO to produce, what kinds of planes make sense, etc.

I sympathise.

I also have had the wish to create lineages of aircraft and armoured vehicles for my timeline project but couldn't advance much because I couldn't be sure what sorts of aircraft and tanks would be most realistic in the specific conditions.

Well, this timeline having a focus on Yugoslavia will probably be helpful in making it an easier process. I feel like Sweden might be the closest model.
Regarding drones, perhaps something more like Turkey? You had stated that Yugoslavia will be dealing with an insurgency in Kosovo iirc.
 
Regarding drones, perhaps something more like Turkey? You had stated that Yugoslavia will be dealing with an insurgency in Kosovo iirc.
I think it might work, as it is mentioned that Turkey and Yugoslavia will be involved in negotiations regarding a certain island.
Though, I have a question. Will you make any political changes in Turkey, caused by the butterfly effect, or maybe caused by the no-Yugoslav War?
 
Don’t understand why Alija Izetbegovic is portrayed as a villain.
Well for one because history is written by the victors and Abdić won. I write from a kind of in-world perspective. Like “someone in-world but detached from the events being discussed trying to be neutral with the information available to them” if that makes sense.

Same way Abdić IOTL is portrayed as a war criminal and a greedy opportunist who betrayed his people in pretty much any Bosniak source outside of Kladuša, and foreign sources also often lean to this greedy and corrupt opportunist depiction.

Frankly I think any actual judgement on Izetbegović is pretty hard to make because on one hand Bosniaks, despite (perhaps mistakenly) preferring Abdić in the 90s, greatly romanticize Alija because he happened to be president when the war broke out. He definitely benefits from the rally around the flag effect and his Pater Patriae status, even more so than Tuđman in Croatia. Bosniaks will depict him as a paragon, Gandhi meets George Washington, which is obviously untrue.

On the other hand, Serbs will present him as Hitler meets Osama Bin Laden which is naturally also an insane exaggeration.

But sifting an unbiased view of the man out of all this muck is, and will probably remain, hard.

He was incompetent and naive but not a supporter of war crimes or genocides
Mmm, yes but he was also, to put it lightly, very scary to non-Muslims in Bosnia. His leadership of the SDA definitely inflamed tensions. That’s the key, that’s why he has to go, and that’s why for the purposes of TTL, he’s an antagonist in the POD, whether or not you think he’s actually a villainous person.

Regarding his actual quality as a person, his openness to working with islamist extremist militants does seem to go beyond mere desperation and definitely gets his hands a little dirty but that’s too close to current politics for me to expand on.

As for his earlier ideas:

While the Islamic Declaration does say that this Islamist society he views as ideal can’t be implemented in Bosnia right now because not only is it not firmly majority Muslim but even most of its Muslims are Muslim only nominally, this is open to interpretation. First it’s explicitly a kind of “not yet” situation. Evidently this non-secular, firmly Islamic government within a global Islamic Federation is his ideal state of affairs and it naturally follows that he wishes to implement it in his home country otherwise he would have just moved somewhere else like Turkey and tried to implement it there.

Now, the question remains though, how would he do that. The generous interpretation is intense Dawah, but frankly only someone completely delusional would think that that wouls be successful in Bosnia. The next most innocent option is Muslim-exclusive natality programs. Not evil but certainly unconstitutional and against the norms of 21st century politics. Already we’re at something that would worry both non-Bosniak Bosnians and the international community. Also not guaranteed to be effective. Pushing Islam on non-Muslims in schools is the next option and has similar pitfalls. If not these methods, both of which would get him in trouble anyway and might not work, the only remaining option is ethnic cleansing, either expulsion or genocide.

Maybe he was ideological and naïve enough to think he could convince Serbs and Croats to convert, or maybe he was ok with expelling them. None of us know because he was never REALLY in a strong enough position to try one way or the other.

Sadly my dad only knew his son Bakir personally, and even them they weren’t close, so I have no close personal insight into Alija.

This is the thing, when you write about how great Islamism is but then try to be president of a religiously diverse country, you may not be evil but you’re definitely a destabilizing factor.

That’s really how I view him for the purpose of TTL, a destabilizing factor that regardless of his moral quality had to be out of the way to prevent the war. Abdić is a piece of shit too but him being in power (and also therefore keeping people like Zulfikarpašić in the party) definitely makes the chances of preserving peace higher.

Frankly I view none of the politicians ITTL favourably (and vanishingly few politicians IOTL too). The only sort of good guy ITTL is Ante Marković and even then his economics sucked and are sorely overhyped due to the even shittier situation after his departure.

They are all some combination of slimy, self-serving, corrupt, lying, opportunistic, immoral, ethnic or religious supremacist, and/or incompetent, and I don’t think Izetbegović is above that any more than any other career politician s.

and he want an SS member either, that’s a complete falsification.
Did I say he was? If so that would be an error that needs fixing and may have bled in from a specific other discussion about a different historical figure I was having woth someone a few weeks back. Please quote the post where it was and I’ll fix it.

Though granted, that idea being spread in-world as confirmed fact isn’t implausible given that even the New York Times parroted it IOTL. ITTL, he isn’t really someone whose reputation the West cares about and all his dirty laundry, real or alleged, is aired out for the public by so such things would not be corrected.

The young Muslims org was accused of collaborating with SS but that wasn’t proven and he was released.
Yes but the accusation looms large over his career ITTL and is pretty much pushed as true by all Bosnian sources under the Abdić government, while outside sources simply would not care or know much about him prior to the early 90s, which ITTL are defined by the power struggle with Abdić. Thus almost everyone in Bosnia says “Alija was a nazi” and foreign sources don’t really care enough to get into the ambiguity of the claim. Again, the kind of in-universe perspective.

Also, he wasn’t released “because the collaboration wasn’t proven”, he was released because his sentence was over (he wasn’t accused of being involved in the holocaust or fighting against the Partisans so the sentence was short).

We don’t know that he was or that he wasn’t working with the SS.

He says he fought for the Partisans but the Partisans arrested him saying he worked with the SS.

It’s a he said-she said situation and his narrative is certainly the one with the bigger hole in that the people accusing him are the very people he claims to have fought for.

If he had fought for the partisans, his former comrades could easily hear about the process and speak up. Shit, if he had partisan contacts at all, he would have tried to get access to them for the trial as witnesses, he was a lawyer after all. It’s also not like he was one of those cases where someone in the Partisans was out to get him personally because he was pretty unimportant (and if someone was really out to get him they could just have him sentenced to death in a show trial or have him assassinated like they did woth my granduncle over an internal dispute between different factions of ex Partisans). Of course they could all be dead but him requesting known partisan veterans by name in and of itsef would have contributed to his case positively in court.

Therefore on the “was he a nazi collaborator” question, we simply can’t be sure, but given that he seems likely to have lied about being a partisan, I’m certainly suspicious.

Suspicious but again, not certain enough to make a firm claim IRL, but ITTL, with Abdić in power, that is how the world will remember him.
 
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Don’t understand why Alija Izetbegovic is portrayed as a villain. He was incompetent and naive but not a supporter of war crimes or genocides and he want an SS member either, that’s a complete falsification. The young Muslims org was accused of collaborating with SS but that wasn’t proven and he was released.
Oh also, I’m considering having him kind of radicalize ITTL after Abdić has him arrested, partly out of anger, especially as he sees most of his party follow Abdić, partly out of who he corresponds with in prison. Kind of pulling a Šešelj in part because it has historically happened to other imprisoned politicians and in part because it’s narratively convenient for the TL as a story.

That would further cement the more extreme reputation he has ITTL compared to OTL.

I sympathise.

I also have had the wish to create lineages of aircraft and armoured vehicles for my timeline project but couldn't advance much because I couldn't be sure what sorts of aircraft and tanks would be most realistic in the specific conditions.
Real.

Well, this timeline having a focus on Yugoslavia will probably be helpful in making it an easier process. I feel like Sweden might be the closest model.
Sweden, Czechia, and Turkey are ones I’m looking closely at, apart from just “what did Yugoslavia do pre war IOTL, and what can I extrapolate from there.

The Novi Avion is gonna be the start of that, but it’s gonna have a different name since I’m fairly certain that was meant as a placeholder.

Regarding drones, perhaps something more like Turkey? You had stated that Yugoslavia will be dealing with an insurgency in Kosovo iirc.
Yeah drone imports and then eventually native drone development will definitely ramp up as the insurgency heats up. It will be one of the early testing grounds for drone technology ITTL, much like the War On Terror and the war in Artsakh/Karabakh (depending on what people prefer to call it, I imagine you as a Turk prefer Karabakh) were IOTL.

I expect Yugoslavia could cooperate with other countries too on creating drones, planes, artilery, and military vehicles (like the Czechs and Belgians do).
The main potential collaborators in my mind are NAM states India, Indonesia, and Iran, and EU members Czechia, Austria, Sweden, France, Italy, and Romania.
That said, especially in the field of drones, collaboration with Turkey is also pretty possible IMO.

I think it might work, as it is mentioned that Turkey and Yugoslavia will be involved in negotiations regarding a certain island.
Though, I have a question. Will you make any political changes in Turkey, caused by the butterfly effect, or maybe caused by the no-Yugoslav War?
I probably will but I’m not diving into Turkey yet due to

1) wanting to figure out other things first
2) a lack of knowledge

Having 2 Turks following the TL will definitely help me in this regard so if you or @Gokbay have any ideas, or even just things to look into in research, definitely let me know.
 
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Well for one because history is written by the victors and Abdić won. I write from a kind of in-world perspective. Like “someone in-world but detached from the events being discussed trying to be neutral with the information available to them” if that makes sense.

Same way Abdić IOTL is portrayed as a war criminal and a greedy opportunist who betrayed his people in pretty much any Bosniak source outside of Kladuša, and foreign sources also often lean to this greedy and corrupt opportunist depiction.

Frankly I think any actual judgement on Izetbegović is pretty hard to make because on one hand Bosniaks, despite (perhaps mistakenly) preferring Abdić in the 90s, greatly romanticize Alija because he happened to be president when the war broke out. He definitely benefits from the rally around the flag effect and his Pater Patriae status, even more so than Tuđman in Croatia. Bosniaks will depict him as a paragon, Gandhi meets George Washington, which is obviously untrue.

On the other hand, Serbs will present him as Hitler meets Osama Bin Laden which is naturally also an insane exaggeration.

But sifting an unbiased view of the man out of all this muck is, and will probably remain, hard.


Mmm, yes but he was also, to put it lightly, very scary to non-Muslims in Bosnia. His leadership of the SDA definitely inflamed tensions. That’s the key, that’s why he has to go, and that’s why for the purposes of TTL, he’s an antagonist in the POD, whether or not you think he’s actually a villainous person.

Regarding his actual quality as a person, his openness to working with islamist extremist militants does seem to go beyond mere desperation and definitely gets his hands a little dirty but that’s too close to current politics for me to expand on.

As for his earlier ideas:

While the Islamic Declaration does say that this Islamist society he views as ideal can’t be implemented in Bosnia right now because not only is it not firmly majority Muslim but even most of its Muslims are Muslim only nominally, this is open to interpretation. First it’s explicitly a kind of “not yet” situation. Evidently this non-secular, firmly Islamic government within a global Islamic Federation is his ideal state of affairs and it naturally follows that he wishes to implement it in his home country otherwise he would have just moved somewhere else like Turkey and tried to implement it there.

Now, the question remains though, how would he do that. The generous interpretation is intense Dawah, but frankly only someone completely delusional would think that that wouls be successful in Bosnia. The next most innocent option is Muslim-exclusive natality programs. Not evil but certainly unconstitutional and against the norms of 21st century politics. Already we’re at something that would worry both non-Bosniak Bosnians and the international community. Also not guaranteed to be effective. Pushing Islam on non-Muslims in schools is the next option and has similar pitfalls. If not these methods, both of which would get him in trouble anyway and might not work, the only remaining option is ethnic cleansing, either expulsion or genocide.

Maybe he was ideological and naïve enough to think he could convince Serbs and Croats to convert, or maybe he was ok with expelling them. None of us know because he was never REALLY in a strong enough position to try one way or the other.

Sadly my dad only knew his son Bakir personally, and even them they weren’t close, so I have no close personal insight into Alija.

This is the thing, when you write about how great Islamism is but then try to be president of a religiously diverse country, you may not be evil but you’re definitely a destabilizing factor.

That’s really how I view him for the purpose of TTL, a destabilizing factor that regardless of his moral quality had to be out of the way to prevent the war. Abdić is a piece of shit too but him being in power (and also therefore keeping people like Zulfikarpašić in the party) definitely makes the chances of preserving peace higher.

Frankly I view none of the politicians ITTL favourably (and vanishingly few politicians IOTL too). The only sort of good guy ITTL is Ante Marković and even then his economics sucked and are sorely overhyped due to the even shittier situation after his departure.

They are all some combination of slimy, self-serving, corrupt, lying, opportunistic, immoral, ethnic or religious supremacist, and/or incompetent, and I don’t think Izetbegović is above that any more than any other career politician s.


Did I say he was? If so that would be an error that needs fixing and may have bled in from a specific other discussion about a different historical figure I was having woth someone a few weeks back. Please quote the post where it was and I’ll fix it.

Though granted, that idea being spread in-world as confirmed fact isn’t implausible given that even the New York Times parroted it IOTL. ITTL, he isn’t really someone whose reputation the West cares about and all his dirty laundry, real or alleged, is aired out for the public by so such things would not be corrected.


Yes but the accusation looms large over his career ITTL and is pretty much pushed as true by all Bosnian sources under the Abdić government, while outside sources simply would not care or know much about him prior to the early 90s, which ITTL are defined by the power struggle with Abdić. Thus almost everyone in Bosnia says “Alija was a nazi” and foreign sources don’t really care enough to get into the ambiguity of the claim. Again, the kind of in-universe perspective.

Also, he wasn’t released “because the collaboration wasn’t proven”, he was released because his sentence was over (he wasn’t accused of being involved in the holocaust or fighting against the Partisans so the sentence was short).

We don’t know that he was or that he wasn’t working with the SS.

He says he fought for the Partisans but the Partisans arrested him saying he worked with the SS.

It’s a he said-she said situation and his narrative is certainly the one with the bigger hole in that the people accusing him are the very people he claims to have fought for.

If he had fought for the partisans, his former comrades could easily hear about the process and speak up. Shit, if he had partisan contacts at all, he would have tried to get access to them for the trial as witnesses, he was a lawyer after all. It’s also not like he was one of those cases where someone in the Partisans was out to get him personally because he was pretty unimportant (and if someone was really out to get him they could just have him sentenced to death in a show trial or have him assassinated like they did woth my granduncle over an internal dispute between different factions of ex Partisans). Of course they could all be dead but him requesting known partisan veterans by name in and of itsef would have contributed to his case positively in court.

Therefore on the “was he a nazi collaborator” question, we simply can’t be sure, but given that he seems likely to have lied about being a partisan, I’m certainly suspicious.

Suspicious but again, not certain enough to make a firm claim IRL, but ITTL, with Abdić in power, that is how the world will remember him.

Oh also, I’m considering having him kind of radicalize ITTL after Abdić has him arrested, partly out of anger, especially as he sees most of his party follow Abdić, partly out of who he corresponds with in prison. Kind of pulling a Šešelj in part because it has historically happened to other imprisoned politicians and in part because it’s narratively convenient for the TL as a story.

That would further cement the more extreme reputation he has ITTL compared to OTL.


Real.


Sweden, Czechia, and Turkey are ones I’m looking closely at, apart from just “what did Yugoslavia do pre war IOTL, and what can I extrapolate from there.

The Novi Avion is gonna be the start of that, but it’s gonna have a different name since I’m fairly certain that was meant as a placeholder.


Yeah drone imports and then eventually native drone development will definitely ramp up as the insurgency heats up. It will be one of the early testing grounds for drone technology ITTL, much like the War On Terror and the war in Artsakh/Karabakh (depending on what people prefer to call it, I imagine you as a Turk prefer Karabakh) were IOTL.

I expect Yugoslavia could cooperate with other countries too on creating drones, planes, artilery, and military vehicles (like the Czechs and Belgians do).
The main potential collaborators in my mind are NAM states India, Indonesia, and Iran, and EU members Czechia, Austria, Sweden, France, Italy, and Romania.
That said, especially in the field of drones, collaboration with Turkey is also pretty possible IMO.


I probably will but I’m not diving into Turkey yet due to

1) wanting to figure out other things first
2) a lack of knowledge

Having 2 Turks following the TL will definitely help me in this regard so if you or @Gokbay have any ideas, or even just things to look into in research, definitely let me know.


1. Yes but even then this is like accusing Hitler of having a secret synagogue in the wolf’s den where he and Eva kept sabbath and he dressed up as an Ashkenazim. Victor still has no follow some sort of touch with reality. Abdic did side with the Serbs and served as their puppet while Bosniaks as an ethnic group were being exterminated elsewhere wholesale. He went on trial for that and was convicted.

2. How’s that his fault? Yugoslav leadership declared we can’t be Bosniaks but we can be “Muslims” and then whenever someone writes about Muslims it’s Islamist.

3. He was a de facto president for life, during and after war to his death. How many Islamist policies has he implemented or ones that would lean that way or ones that put Islam or Muslims above other citizens?
 
1. Yes but even then this is like accusing Hitler of having a secret synagogue in the wolf’s den where he and Eva kept sabbath and he dressed up as an Ashkenazim. Victor still has no follow some sort of touch with reality. Abdic did side with the Serbs and served as their puppet while Bosniaks as an ethnic group were being exterminated elsewhere wholesale. He went on trial for that and was convicted.

2. How’s that his fault? Yugoslav leadership declared we can’t be Bosniaks but we can be “Muslims” and then whenever someone writes about Muslims it’s Islamist.
First of all, Alija was initially opposed to the term Bosniak himself and pushed the term Muslim, this is part of why Zulfikarpašić left the SDA.

It was Bosniaks who pushed the ethnic name Muslims at first, including Izetbegović’s Young Muslims. It was only later that the term Bosniak became preferred. I think Bosniak is a better name, but Muslim wasn’t at least initially imposed by outsiders.

Second he wrote about ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT not “Muslims” as an ethnoreligious group corresponding to Bosniaks, but “government based in the Quran”. Note that he uses the term Islamska/i not Muslimanska/i, further proof that he is referring to the religion’s place in government, not that of the ethnicity that was at the time called Muslims.

He even says Attaturk’s secularization of Turkey was a mistake so it’s again abundantly and indisputably clear that he is talking about Islam in government, is Islamism.

He was an Islamist he just never pushed that through because

1) he thought it wasn’t feasible in a country that wasn’t solidly majority Muslim
2) Most Bosniaks weren’t for Islamism.

These are his words, not mine, except for point 2 but point 2 is self evident. When I say “Alija Izetbegović was an Islamist” my source is Alija Izetbegović. His words, his works, his writings, straight from his mind to the page, published with his approval. The best and clearest possible primary source in his opinions.

3. He was a de facto president for life, during and after war to his death. How many Islamist policies has he implemented or ones that would lean that way or ones that put Islam or Muslims above other citizens?
None because he was constrained by

1) a parliament
2) Bosniak public opinion
3) Serb and Croat threats of secession/return to war
4) Demographics and his belief regarding how they affect the implementation of “Islamic revolution”. He himself said Islamism was good but it was impossible to implement in a country that isn’t solidly majority-Muslim, and of course 50.4 or so is a very slim majority

He openly said he was an islamist, read his book before talking lmao. Or at least read a synopsis of it or an article about it.

The internet is free.

At the end of the day if you don’t like this TL, write your own where Alija is a flawless angel or whatever. You’re free to do so. But I’ve explained my reasoning.

Politicians are controversial and will always have many possible interpretations of their views and deeds.

I try explicitly to avoid Balkan secondary sources to keep bias out, but people will still disagree with interpretations and characterizations. That is fine, but you’ve made your points, ones I personally consider weak, biased, unconvincing, and not evidence-based, as such I will keep the TL as is. This doesn’t mean you don’t have the right to disagree, but it does mean that I would like to ask you to avoid cluttering the thread unless you have stronger points to bring up.

I do my utmost to avoid bias in Balkan topics but I know that’s always just gonna piss off all sides so I will stop replying to you soon to avoid creating some stupid argument that will draw in the mods.

Even if he DID change his mind from an Islamist position to a different one since writing the book (which doesn’t explain why it kept getting published with no complaints from him or his family), at the time of the POD this would not be clear to the general public, giving Abdić ammunition for propaganda against Alija.
 
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Oh also, I’m considering having him kind of radicalize ITTL after Abdić has him arrested, partly out of anger, especially as he sees most of his party follow Abdić, partly out of who he corresponds with in prison. Kind of pulling a Šešelj in part because it has historically happened to other imprisoned politicians and in part because it’s narratively convenient for the TL as a story.

That would further cement the more extreme reputation he has ITTL compared to OTL.
That probably sounds like the best option to make it more clear why he has such a negative reputation ITTL, considering it would be good if his in-universe negative reputation is backed up by actual actions he does in the 1990s.
 
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1. Yes but even then this is like accusing Hitler of having a secret synagogue in the wolf’s den where he and Eva kept sabbath and he dressed up as an Ashkenazim. Victor still has no follow some sort of touch with reality. Abdic did side with the Serbs and served as their puppet while Bosniaks as an ethnic group were being exterminated elsewhere wholesale. He went on trial for that and was convicted.

2. How’s that his fault? Yugoslav leadership declared we can’t be Bosniaks but we can be “Muslims” and then whenever someone writes about Muslims it’s Islamist.

3. He was a de facto president for life, during and after war to his death. How many Islamist policies has he implemented or ones that would lean that way or ones that put Islam or Muslims above other citizens?
Play the Ball.

Just as importantly, don't start a political fight when there is no need for one.
 
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