Third Reich: How would do 1941?

Suppose you ran the Third Reich in 1941 with 20-20 foresight? You wanted to rule Germany and have Germany rule the world but you had infinitely better judgement than OTL origionals. With a POD of Jan 1. 1941 what would you do?

What about this? I would put war with USSR on back burner, hopefully until after all current enemies have surrendered, at least.

I would watch USSR closely for signs they were about to attack us.

If Pearl Harbor went off on schedule I would not declare war on USA.
I know there's sort of an unofficial war going on but that's different.

In the world press I would wonder what this aid to the UK is all about? After all, the USA is in a declared war with somebody else.

If you study you will find out Germany was not obligated to go to war with USA. Don't believe me? Find it on your own.
 
If Pearl Harbor went off on schedule I would not declare war on USA.
I know there's sort of an unofficial war going on but that's different.

In the world press I would wonder what this aid to the UK is all about? After all, the USA is in a declared war with somebody else.
Declare war on Japan, offer peace to British on pretext to fight Japanese devils, allow volunteers from Nederland for Pacific. ;)
 
By 1941 I don't know if you can keep the USA or the Soviets out but here goes:

1) Don't attack the Soviet Union. (But we don't know if Stalin would eventually attack or not, just hope not or your still doomed). Eventually you might have to conceed Finland, Ruthenaia and the 1914 boundries of Poland to keep them neutral.
2) Invest as heavy as possible in the submarine war. Start many of the advanced uboat improvements early (many of which weren't really technology advanced)
3) Don't raid with Bismarck but keep her and Tirpitz as a fleet in being and raid with smmaler units.
4) Invent some way to attack convoys with land based air (guided wired bombs or something, using a HE177 in a 4 engine configuration to deliver the weapons)
5) Switch from enigma to paper books for coding.
6) When Japan DOWs the USA (can't control them really so probably still doomed) use neutral Soviets to trade via Trans-Siberian strategic supplies back and forth.
7) The best way to screw with Japan is to allow Vichy to reinforce Indochina if possible but at least make them fight to keep the Japanese out. This alone might make Japan have to deal with the Chinese to avoid USA entry, send advisors across Soviet territory to the Nationalist Chinese.
8) Make some sort of real peace deal with Vichy to allow use of French North and West Africa as a submarine/air base (return the French POWs or something)
9) Take Malta while you still can, begin the long process of improving logistics in North Africa, hope you get lucky and can take Alexandria.

but Basically you have to attack the North Atlantic convoy routes and win the shipping war, by 1943 you have to have better weapons and better bases available to keep competitive.
 
Last edited:

iddt3

Donor
By 1941 I don't know if you can keep the USA or the Soviets out but here goes:

1) Don't attack the Soviet Union. (But we don't know if Stalin would eventually attack or not, just hope not or your still doomed). Eventually you might have to conceed Finland, Ruthenaia and the 1914 boundries of Poland to keep them neutral.
2) Invest as heavy as possible in the submarine war. Start many of the advanced uboat improvements early (many of which weren't really technology advanced)
3) Don't raid with Bismarck but keep her and Tirpitz as a fleet in being and raid with smmaler units.
4) Invent some way to attack convoys with land based air (guided wired bombs or something, using a HE177 in a 4 engine configuration to deliver the weapons)
5) Switch from enigma to paper books for coding.
6) When Japan DOWs the USA (can't control them really so probably still doomed) use neutral Soviets to trade via Trans-Siberian strategic supplies back and forth.
7) The best way to screw with Japan is to allow Vichy to reinforce Indochina if possible but at least make them fight to keep the Japanese out. This alone might make Japan have to deal with the Chinese to avoid USA entry, send advisors across Soviet territory to the Nationalist Chinese.
8) Make some sort of real peace deal with Vichy to allow use of French North and West Africa as a submarine/air base (return the French POWs or something)
9) Take Malta while you still can, begin the long process of improving logistics in North Africa, hope you get lucky and can take Alexandria.

but Basically you have to attack the North Atlantic convoy routes and win the shipping war, by 1943 you have to have better weapons and better bases available to keep competitive.
This still screws the Rich though, as Stalin was making the deals for raw materials move more and more in the Soviets favor, if Germany doesn't go to war with the USSR she winds up in hock to it.
 
With my perfect knowledge of events I bet I'll be able to pull off Barbarossa on schedule without fucking it up too badly. I would put a stop to moussolini's exploits early. I'll install a fascist friendly Russian government, once my hold on the east is ensured I'll take the Suez using my future tank and submarine tactics. Sit tight for a while and make sure not to pull the US into the conflict. Order all the scientists to get me a submarine that can fire nuclear missiles by 1948 or they get the gas chambers, this process will be speeded up by ending the holocaust and utilizing all the talented Jewish scientists hitler wanted rid of. Rather than waste all the resources invading the U.K I'll force them into peace by vaporizing a city every week until they give up.
 
Declare war on Japan, offer peace to British on pretext to fight Japanese devils, allow volunteers from Nederland for Pacific. ;)

I have long thought that this would have been the best thing for Germany to do. (Well shooting Hitler in the mid 30's would have been better). Give whatever concessions are necessary in the west, to allow them to have a 1 front war. Use diplomacy and propaganda to try to stop lend lease aid to Russia. Hope that fighting Japan is long and expensive enough that the Western Democracies decide that they can't be bothered to get involved in a fight between 2 totalatarian countries.
 
This still screws the Rich though, as Stalin was making the deals for raw materials move more and more in the Soviets favor, if Germany doesn't go to war with the USSR she winds up in hock to it.

I don't know if winning even a 20-20 foresight war with this POD is possible with the Soviets. Doing a whole lot of extra preparations a head of time probably warns the Soviets you are attacking and they take countermeasures. Even with better planning and no Soviet response, as soon as you attack things change and your value of your foresight gets dimished over time and the likelyhood of unintended negative consequences increases. Plus even if your in charge you can't necessarily get your Generals to execute what you want, people mess up and you try to fix things, and it butterflies away quickly.

Now if this forsight person a Hilter, a more evil you or me, whatever, can break free of Nazism and do a war of liberation, it might go better in some areas, assuming you can feed everyone who is now your buddy.
 
I wonder that nobody thought of rather obvious things like democratization, repeal of any racist laws, paying reparations for the Jews, re-establishing the Czechs as an autonomous region (within or even outside the Reich) and likewise for the Poles (including ethnically Polish territories in Posen), generally behaving civilized and not like Nazis.

Then I'd concentrate on two things: economy and the Med. In the best case, the "new" much less evil Reich can win some victories in the Med against Britain that get them to the negotiation table. The rest of Europe should be preparing for the Soviet attack. And frankly I would consider repelling the Soviet attack (which I expect) with nerve gas.
 
Is it that you have taken over from Hitler and the rest of the high ranking nazi's? If so...
1 - Peace with the west is a must. Withdraw from western europe and pay for anything that needs paying for, yes this is going to take time and a lot of money, but as you are not Hitler it may work. Basically give them whatever they want.
2 - Poland is going to be a very big problem I don't know how to sort that out (any idea's?).
3 - Tell Italy tow your line or they will be on their own.
4 - Pass on any infomation you have on Japan to the west.
5 - Build mass defence lines in eastern Germany. You know, that it's going to kick off with Russia but not when. Make Russia the the 'bad boys'.
6 - Open talks with the US.
7 - Let anyone you wishes to leave Germany leave.
8 - And needless to say shut down any death camps and hang those in charge of them.

Peace will take time, but it's not open warfare anymore.
 
By 1941 I don't know if you can keep the USA or the Soviets out but here goes:

1) Don't attack the Soviet Union. (But we don't know if Stalin would eventually attack or not, just hope not or your still doomed). Eventually you might have to conceed Finland, Ruthenaia and the 1914 boundries of Poland to keep them neutral.
2) Invest as heavy as possible in the submarine war. Start many of the advanced uboat improvements early (many of which weren't really technology advanced)
3) Don't raid with Bismarck but keep her and Tirpitz as a fleet in being and raid with smmaler units.
4) Invent some way to attack convoys with land based air (guided wired bombs or something, using a HE177 in a 4 engine configuration to deliver the weapons)
5) Switch from enigma to paper books for coding.
6) When Japan DOWs the USA (can't control them really so probably still doomed) use neutral Soviets to trade via Trans-Siberian strategic supplies back and forth.
7) The best way to screw with Japan is to allow Vichy to reinforce Indochina if possible but at least make them fight to keep the Japanese out. This alone might make Japan have to deal with the Chinese to avoid USA entry, send advisors across Soviet territory to the Nationalist Chinese.
8) Make some sort of real peace deal with Vichy to allow use of French North and West Africa as a submarine/air base (return the French POWs or something)
9) Take Malta while you still can, begin the long process of improving logistics in North Africa, hope you get lucky and can take Alexandria.

but Basically you have to attack the North Atlantic convoy routes and win the shipping war, by 1943 you have to have better weapons and better bases available to keep competitive.


OK, the last bit, challenge to you or anybody else, write the speech where FDR justifies continuing the convoys after PH. After all, even if never sunk, every ounce of whatever could go to the war effort against Japan
instead.
 
Suppose you ran the Third Reich in 1941 with 20-20 foresight? You wanted to rule Germany and have Germany rule the world but you had infinitely better judgement than OTL origionals. With a POD of Jan 1. 1941 what would you do?

What about this? I would put war with USSR on back burner, hopefully until after all current enemies have surrendered, at least.

I would watch USSR closely for signs they were about to attack us.

If Pearl Harbor went off on schedule I would not declare war on USA.
I know there's sort of an unofficial war going on but that's different.

In the world press I would wonder what this aid to the UK is all about? After all, the USA is in a declared war with somebody else.

If you study you will find out Germany was not obligated to go to war with USA. Don't believe me? Find it on your own.

Admit both the USSR and Vichy into the Axis. Sure it sounds a bit illogical, but there were talks in late 1940 with Molotov coming to Berlin, and I think it may have been Goebbels who was looking to tie the French in more.

Prioritise the remaining elements of the war - submarines, viable long-range aircraft, helicopters, jet defensive fighters, guided missiles etc

Obviously, work to support the more "moderate" factions in the SS - Wolff etc and repeal any diktats about extermination camps. Stop all removal of Jews from their native lands, and repatriate any taken from the West (where it is most feasible).

Work with US industry more intelligently to stop the undeclared war in late 1941. Don't, obviously, declare war when Japan does.

Prepare carefully for a fuller purge, and as part of it "retire" Goering and put Milch in charge of the Luftwaffe, promote Galland and Kesselring within the service.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I don't know if winning even a 20-20 foresight war with this POD is possible with the Soviets. Doing a whole lot of extra preparations a head of time probably warns the Soviets you are attacking and they take countermeasures. Even with better planning and no Soviet response, as soon as you attack things change and your value of your foresight gets dimished over time and the likelyhood of unintended negative consequences increases. Plus even if your in charge you can't necessarily get your Generals to execute what you want, people mess up and you try to fix things, and it butterflies away quickly.

Now if this forsight person a Hilter, a more evil you or me, whatever, can break free of Nazism and do a war of liberation, it might go better in some areas, assuming you can feed everyone who is now your buddy.

IMO, with perfect foresight, winning becomes likely. Your point about tipping off Stalin is valid, and any small change might be the tipping point. And the best move is not to attack.

But once we accept we have to attack, there a lot of things that can be done prewar/war to help tip the scale and win the war.

1) The Holocaust was a waste of resources for someone trying to win the war. 3% more rail capacity is not in and of itself a war winner, but 3% more helps a lot. If the change is prewar, we build up extra supplies by not wasting effort.

2) 1/2 jews could fight against France, this went down to 1/4 jews for Russia. Even if one believes in the insane German racial policies, this move does not make sense. Every 1/2 Jew that dies in the line of fire in the Soviet Union is one less Aryan that dies. It is only 50,000 soldiers, but that is a full corp of trained, combat experience men.

3) The production of the German economy was very chaotic. Lots of threads on how to improve.

4) Command staff was chaotic. Pick good leaders and keep them.

5) North Africa can be done better.

6) We know we will need anti-tank weapons for T-34. Build more.

7) We can conserve airplanes in BoB.

8) We can treat Ukrainians better after invasion. While people focus on if you could get extra units out of them, this is only part of the issue. Stalin had treated them badly. In areas controlled by Romania, there were almost no partisan activities even in non-Romanian ethnic areas. Not having to worry about partisan frees up resources.

9) We can fix winter uniforms in 1941.

10) We can convert the rails faster. We could have also built more trains pre-war.

11) We then get to the list of the military things Hitler could have done better in Russia. It is a long list.

12) etc.


Nothing in the list prevents Hitler from accomplishing his long-term racial goals, it just delays the start by a few years. Some of them have no impact on his racial policies. We got a near worse case scenario with Hitler, but not the worse case. Hitler could have also had the virtues of being a discipline leader with better economic and military sense. On of the signs of maturity and intelligence is to be able to sacrifice short term pleasure for long term gains. Hitler's impulse control was more of a child's than a man's much less a world leader.

It is often said that the Nazi were doomed by resources, but when one looks at the resources controlled by the Axis at their maximum, the had close to 44% of the resources (GDP) of the powers at war. Hitler was not that far from being at a place where a war of attrition begins to become possible for the Germans to win. He was not close to this point, but he is far from being ASB territory. Even a 99% chance of losing means a 1% chance of winning.
 
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