Third century crisis WI

No major difference. Would his adopted heir avoid the same mistakes made by Commodus (namely alienating the aristocrats in favour of the masses and the army)? Can you promise the adopted heir would not have a son?

Civil wars will always occur in the Roman Empire no matter what Point of divergence you make. Even Marcus Aurelius faced a rebellion by one of his greatest generals.

Oh I realize usurpers and civil wars will always occur in the Roman Empire. And yes, preferably this person would not alienate the aristocrats.

Anyway, is Severus doing better the only way to to mitigate the crisis with a POD so late?
 
Oh I realize usurpers and civil wars will always occur in the Roman Empire. And yes, preferably this person would not alienate the aristocrats.

Anyway, is Severus doing better the only way to to mitigate the crisis with a POD so late?

Any earlier POD and we would not be able to tell what would the after-effects be.

LSCatilina said:
Many of Late Roman empire armies were in fact not under direct control of the emperor, whatever bucelarii, militias, or foedii. Usually, even when "allied" they ended by turning against imperial power because their commanders/patron had his own interests and often collapsing with imperial ones.

That would depend on the time period won't it? Up until the start of the fifth century, the majority of the Roman army were under direct control of the Roman administration.

The limitanei, the field army and the Palatine army were all part of the Imperial army and were funded directly by the Imperial treasury.

Be not confuse, I didn't say they were proeminant in the imperial army (though some of the limitanei could have been issued from great farms clientele).

I do not recall any evidence that limitanei were private militia. Some of the limitanei units were transformed into private militia, but that was after Imperial control in the province have all but collapsed.
 
Que? What do you mean?

Can we seriously guarantee that such an Imperial crisis will not happen if history diverge at an earlier point in time? If Commodus lasted longer (there are too many scenarios as to why Commodus might survive longer), would his heirs make the same mistake Alexander Severus did?
 
Can we seriously guarantee that such an Imperial crisis will not happen if history diverge at an earlier point in time? If Commodus lasted longer (there are too many scenarios as to why Commodus might survive longer), would his heirs make the same mistake Alexander Severus did?

I guess it depends on how you want his heir to turn out. If he doesn't make the same (major) mistakes that Severus did, then what? At this point, I have kinda accepted the Third Century Crisis as an inevitability, and instead just want to play damage control here and make it as little damaging as possible.

But if Aurelius for example adopts an heir, and by chance, that emperor adopts his heir, could a precedent of having to adopt an heir be started here or no? I'm guessing probably not though, because I don't see many emperors with children willing to give their crown up to someone not from their bloodline.
 
Any earlier POD and we would not be able to tell what would the after-effects be.
Sure, it's why I used the word "improbable" and advised to try making the crisis less hard.

That would depend on the time period won't it? Up until the start of the fifth century, the majority of the Roman army were under direct control of the Roman administration.

Again, I'll advise you to read the book I quoted. Apparently there's a confusion between imperial army and armed forces within the roman empire there.

I do not recall any evidence that limitanei were private militia. Some of the limitanei units were transformed into private militia, but that was after Imperial control in the province have all but collapsed.
I'll ask you to read more carefully my post : I said "it's possible that SOME of the limitanei" were actually composed of clientelist forces that while payed by the imperial taxes were more closely tied to local interests.
 
LSCatalina, could you point me to any ways I could make the crisis "less hard" on the Empire?

Well, for beggining, a more calm Persian front would be cool (I don't know, a lasting civil war between Parthians and Sassanids, Valerian not captive) as it would slow the ressource and money bleeding existing OTL, as it could allow romans to move troops to west to counter more efficiently germanic and celtic raids...

Oh you won't get rid of many issues, but with this you could have an Aurelian-like emperor eventually managing to settle the crisis 20 years earlier.
 
Well, for beggining, a more calm Persian front would be cool (I don't know, a lasting civil war between Parthians and Sassanids, Valerian not captive) as it would slow the ressource and money bleeding existing OTL, as it could allow romans to move troops to west to counter more efficiently germanic and celtic raids...

Oh you won't get rid of many issues, but with this you could have an Aurelian-like emperor eventually managing to settle the crisis 20 years earlier.

How seriously could this limit the power of a rise of usurpers in the time like Posthumus with the Gallic Empire and the Palmyrene Empire?
 
How seriously could this limit the power of a rise of usurpers in the time like Posthumus with the Gallic Empire and the Palmyrene Empire?

It could go as far than butterflying them as reltivly stable entinties.

Palymre managed to grap so much power because its dirigeant were trusted by the emperor of military commendment of the whole front. Recieving "Dux Oriens" title (almost co-emperor), "Commandment of All Romans", etc.
Without a so much damaged front as OTL, it's possible that palmyrenians wouldn't get that much political and military power.

For Posthumus, while the POD wouldn't mandatory butterfly its usurpation, he would have less chances to keep his titles as Rome could move troops from East to West more easily, and as his social support outside military would be a bit less requisitioned for the urges of eastern front.
 
It could go as far than butterflying them as reltivly stable entinties.

Palymre managed to grap so much power because its dirigeant were trusted by the emperor of military commendment of the whole front. Recieving "Dux Oriens" title (almost co-emperor), "Commandment of All Romans", etc.
Without a so much damaged front as OTL, it's possible that palmyrenians wouldn't get that much political and military power.

For Posthumus, while the POD wouldn't mandatory butterfly its usurpation, he would have less chances to keep his titles as Rome could move troops from East to West more easily, and as his social support outside military would be a bit less requisitioned for the urges of eastern front.
Hmmm. Could the limes in Germany remain intact instead of being abandoned?
 
Hmmm. Could the limes in Germany remain intact instead of being abandoned?

That's possible, but the Germanic pressure was really heavy there.

You see, the limes as in the High Imperial times was made as a control infrastructure as well a diplomatic tool.

Bertrand Borie said:
What happened was imprevisible for Romans. Where they tought having to fear only intentionally directed attacks, they faced a massive move of entiere peoples that, sometimes shanking each other, they coldn't mesure the causes or closenedd of the threat.

[...]

Before the concentration of crushing forces and simultaneity of attacks, the defensive limes of Antonines, efficient in the II century, failed : front defense first, then the bareer itself and the invaders entered, without real obstacles after this, in the countryside. The diplomacy as a needed complement of disuasive limes lost of its efficiency.

You HAD to have a reorganisation of the borders, especially before Germans that not only representated a more important threat than before but adopted even roman military tactics.

So, except a quick reorganisation and creation of infrastructures (and even with a less dramatic crisis, I think it's unlikely), my take is on withdraw of Roman from the Agres.
 
What would need to be done to keep the limes intact?

Romans giften with divination powers.

Really, the limes system as it existed was done for : it didn't fit the reality and was obsolete. Roman were unaware of the changes happening in germanic societies, their organisation, the causes of their attacks...

Maybe Romans could have adapted the limes if they had time, money, ressources...but hey, III Century crisis...
 
Romans giften with divination powers.

Really, the limes system as it existed was done for : it didn't fit the reality and was obsolete. Roman were unaware of the changes happening in germanic societies, their organisation, the causes of their attacks...

Maybe Romans could have adapted the limes if they had time, money, ressources...but hey, III Century crisis...

This is kinda really getting off my original idea, but what would a border being brought up to the Elbe (during Augustus' time of course) do for the northern borders?
 
So the best way to mitigate the third century crisis is to ride the worm? I'll start doing more research on the era.

It's almost always the better way you know. Rather than searching to "delete" something, it's better to see how to weaken it from the interior.

In EaH by exemple (Yes, I use my TL as an exemple, get over it people), rather than searching to "cancel" Islamic conquest, I searched to make it less complete ending with something (I hope) more plausible than "Deus ex machina".
 
It's almost always the better way you know. Rather than searching to "delete" something, it's better to see how to weaken it from the interior.

In EaH by exemple (Yes, I use my TL as an exemple, get over it people), rather than searching to "cancel" Islamic conquest, I searched to make it less complete ending with something (I hope) more plausible than "Deus ex machina".

So the best way to go about this would be to have a more successful Alexander Severus?


Or, what if the Severans never take power? Caracalla increased the army's pay by like 50% or something, (which even though he probably did need to keep its loyalty is still a little overkill)?
 
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