These Hills Sing of Saxon Kings

What the heck happened to Cornwall on your map, Thermo? :eek: I know I complain about Americans making it too big, but that's no reason to hack the end off it! :D

*groan* ;)

Any comments besides that, Your Thandeliness? :D

Bloody Normans still seem to be dominating this TL! LOL

Hmm? They are reduced to Sicilian possesions and JUST the Duchy of Normandy. I don't see them dominating...

All this speculation about which Norman or German or French ruler will marry Eleanor may be moot. Aquitaine was a very desirable dowry. It was the reason Louis married Eleanor in the first place and why Henry married her in the second place.

Right. So we'll marry her off to Henry I (but of Champagne!). A powerful ruler, and one who would like Eleanor's dowry...

Anglo-Saxon England in this ATL would be by far the richest, most stable, most culturally advanced polity in Europe.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say THAT. But A-S England IS in a strong position.

The utter defeat of the Norman cavalry by the Saxon shield wall would send a massive wave of self doubt through the knights on the continent. Chivalry would be still born. The whole concept of the mounted warrior being the social and natural leader of the people on foot (free born infantry and peasant alike) would be non-existent.

Well, I don't know about THAT. The Norman knight still performed with excellent prowess in Italy and the Holy Land. But in England the idea of knighthood would not have come about, certainly...

Even the HR Emperor would sit on an even shakier throne. Who would be in a position to defy England if they wished to press their claims in Europe? Their wealth alone would be enough to buy mercenaries to supplement their military deficiences.

Oh, England's fortunes WILL turn. The increased emphasis on the wool trade is going to hurt it come Black Death time. But the Saxons will remain in power, trust me.

Not to mention that the faction in the Papal court who favoured them would soon come to power again. Gregory's 'Angels' would undoubtedly be part of the establishment in Rome once more.

The Papacy has not been effected thus far. And in fact for the forseeable future it will stay the same, what with the precedents set by Urban II et al.
 

Thande

Donor
Hmm, I hadn't realised that 'Angevin' derived from 'Anjou' - for some reason I always thought it related to 'England'...
 
Hmm, I hadn't realised that 'Angevin' derived from 'Anjou' - for some reason I always thought it related to 'England'...

Actually, IIRC Angevin derives from Angers (which is in Anjou) and is the traditional capital of the Angevin Empire. Which is why I need to find something to replace "Angevin", since Anjou is not one of Eleanor's/Henry's realms ITTL. The working name is "Aquitanian", however I would much prefer it if the name were related to a city, like Bordeaux, Poitiers, or Troyes. (No, I'm not going to use "Trojan Empire" if the capital is Troyes. :rolleyes: )
 
Well, I don't know about THAT. The Norman knight still performed with excellent prowess in Italy and the Holy Land. But in England the idea of knighthood would not have come about, certainly...
Well, the Legends of King Arthur aren't going to get an audience in this England, that's for certain. ;)

I wonder what the Saxon military ideal is? The father of his people? The brother of his shield-brothers? A Vikingesque ring-giver who leads because he is the best and most successful?

How is England organised in this timeline? Is it effectively feudal under the earls/thanes (I note that Harold and co have been pushing their relatives into most of the top jobs)? Are the various regions dominated by the cities (as in Flanders or Italy) rather than by great landowners? Or is the monarchy wealthy enough to afford a bureaucracy and a standing army (housecarls?). That would give the English a huge headstart in setting up a semi-modern state. Of course, it might also lead to a more despotic style of kingship, if they don't have to worry about concilating the barons...
 
Well, the Legends of King Arthur aren't going to get an audience in this England, that's for certain. ;)

I wonder what the Saxon military ideal is? The father of his people? The brother of his shield-brothers? A Vikingesque ring-giver who leads because he is the best and most successful?

How is England organised in this timeline? Is it effectively feudal under the earls/thanes (I note that Harold and co have been pushing their relatives into most of the top jobs)? Are the various regions dominated by the cities (as in Flanders or Italy) rather than by great landowners? Or is the monarchy wealthy enough to afford a bureaucracy and a standing army (housecarls?). That would give the English a huge headstart in setting up a semi-modern state. Of course, it might also lead to a more despotic style of kingship, if they don't have to worry about concilating the barons...

Merrick

Some interesting ideas here. The Saxons could be pretty chaotic and awkward but I don't think they were as disorderly and destructive as the Normans so probably a more stable system albeit possibly not by much, than the latter Norman period. There were a number of checks and balances in the Saxon system I think and the fact you have a less centralised monarchy would help. [Although it does seem to be becoming openly hereditary]. Think much of the incentive behind the development of monarchical absolutism was at least partly how disruptive the various nobles were. In a lot of cases I think people preferred a more distant and central monarch as protection against the local brigand:) [sorry baron]. As such there will be periods of autocracy, as with other states, but as with OTL I think England will be in the fore-front of both the rise of centralised monarchy and then its decline.

Have to see how Thermopylae develops the timeline.

Steve
 
*groan* ;)

Any comments besides that, Your Thandeliness? :D



Hmm? They are reduced to Sicilian possesions and JUST the Duchy of Normandy. I don't see them dominating...

I meant the number of times that they are mentioned in the posts here and how they would still be very influential. After such a defeat as this OTL postulates I doubt they would recover so much prestiege so quickly to be as dominating in Europe as people seem to think.

Right. So we'll marry her off to Henry I (but of Champagne!). A powerful ruler, and one who would like Eleanor's dowry...

Henry I of Champagne was not, as far as I recall, a particularly notable and powerful ruler. My point is that Aquitaine would be such a major prize that no ruler would allow any other to take it, even by marriage, unless that ruler were powerful enough to forcetheir claim. So in OTL Henry II was opposed by others but they did not have sufficient military clout to prevent it. In this ATL Henry I of Champagne would be opposed by Normans and French and they could prevent it. Only an English prince could have enough prestiege and military power to annex the territory and keep it.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say THAT. But A-S England IS in a strong position.

It was in exactly that position on the eve of the Conquest so it would still be in that position after it defeated both the Northerners and the Normans. Indeed, it may well be in a better position.

Well, I don't know about THAT. The Norman knight still performed with excellent prowess in Italy and the Holy Land. But in England the idea of knighthood would not have come about, certainly...

Look what happened after Agincourt. In this ATL the most feared military weapons system, the armoured knight, had been routed by a steady infantry just like in Roman times. Surely this lesson would not be lost on the population of Europe!

It seems more than likely that the grip of the knightly class on rule would be shaky indeed after such a defeat. I can certainly envisage the military class being challenged by a well equipped and trained infantry from the towns and surrounding countryside. Whether it is successful in the long term is uncertain, but the arrogance and certainty of superiority of the knights must be now lessened.

Although Civitae was in 1053, Palermo was not captured until 1072. So while the Normans may have been successful in Southern Italy, theur subsequent advance into Sicily may very well have been different. Once their air of invincibility had been shattered, their morale would go down while that of their opponents would rise.

Oh, England's fortunes WILL turn. The increased emphasis on the wool trade is going to hurt it come Black Death time. But the Saxons will remain in power, trust me.

Maybe, but the growth of the towns in England as a result of Harold's victory will certainly diversify the sources of wealth of England. Perhaps Harold will learn the lesson that Alfred did in earlier times and strengthen the navy.


The Papacy has not been effected thus far. And in fact for the forseeable future it will stay the same, what with the precedents set by Urban II et al.

Gregory made that famous pun about Angles and Angels. He always liked the English and favoured them at court. With the victory over the Normans, the papal leadership would soon come to favour them again so long as the English gave due reverence to the Pope. My point is that they would come back into favouritism because the lustre of the Normans would fade.
 

Thande

Donor
Gregory made that famous pun about Angles and Angels. He always liked the English and favoured them at court. With the victory over the Normans, the papal leadership would soon come to favour them again so long as the English gave due reverence to the Pope. My point is that they would come back into favouritism because the lustre of the Normans would fade.

I don't see how Gregory the Great's opinion of the English necessarily determines that of Alexander II and Gregory VII five hundred years later.
 
Things are only getting more interesting as time goes on, guys. I'll be WAY too busy this weekend to get an update in, so you guys will be getting an early update (Friday). And this one will even have a map! :eek:
 
Sorry MarkA! You misformatted your response, I didn't know you were responding to me! :eek:

I meant the number of times that they are mentioned in the posts here and how they would still be very influential. After such a defeat as this OTL postulates I doubt they would recover so much prestiege so quickly to be as dominating in Europe as people seem to think.

They aren't dominating Europe. :confused:

Henry I of Champagne was not, as far as I recall, a particularly notable and powerful ruler. My point is that Aquitaine would be such a major prize that no ruler would allow any other to take it, even by marriage, unless that ruler were powerful enough to forcetheir claim. So in OTL Henry II was opposed by others but they did not have sufficient military clout to prevent it. In this ATL Henry I of Champagne would be opposed by Normans and French and they could prevent it. Only an English prince could have enough prestiege and military power to annex the territory and keep it.

Henry I of Champagne was VERY powerful (Champagne would become under his reign one of the most POWERFUL entities in the region under his reign). Not to mention that in the event that the French king DOES bother to try to prevent the marriage, he would be attacked by not just Eleanor and the large forces she can bring to bear, but ITTL Anjou (Eleanor's son in law Geoffrey VI), Brittany (brother of Eleanor's son in law), and Blois (brother of Henry I). The French king would be simultaneously attacked on all sides, and not to mention that Louis VII at this point in time would be more concerned with ensuring he has an heir than declaring war.

And besides, so long as Count Henry I of Champagne remains subservient to him (as he shall), why go to war?

Look what happened after Agincourt. In this ATL the most feared military weapons system, the armoured knight, had been routed by a steady infantry just like in Roman times. Surely this lesson would not be lost on the population of Europe!

seems more than likely that the grip of the knightly class on rule would be shaky indeed after such a defeat. I can certainly envisage the military class being challenged by a well equipped and trained infantry from the towns and surrounding countryside. Whether it is successful in the long term is uncertain, but the arrogance and certainty of superiority of the knights must be now lessened.

Although Civitae was in 1053, Palermo was not captured until 1072. So while the Normans may have been successful in Southern Italy, theur subsequent advance into Sicily may very well have been different. Once their air of invincibility had been shattered, their morale would go down while that of their opponents would rise.

But then it beat said armies in Italy and the Holy Land. :confused: Point is, in the grand scheme of things, this will only pre-empt the rise of chivalry IN ENGLAND. The rest of Europe? More or less unaffected. The feudal system is not going to be shaken to the core just because the Normans lost one battle. It would not be seen as a failure of knights in general, but more a failure of William the Bastard's gamble.

Maybe, but the growth of the towns in England as a result of Harold's victory will certainly diversify the sources of wealth of England. Perhaps Harold will learn the lesson that Alfred did in earlier times and strengthen the navy.

Yeah, England's DEFINATELY going to want to increase its naval strength... You'll see why on Friday...
 
All right guys, look for the update tommorow. I'm currently in the year 1219, I want to get to about 1266. Things are getting very interesting, especially in Ireland, the Netherlands, France, and (briefly) Denmark. A lot of (plausible) goodies! ;)
 
All right, guys, here it is. It's a big one...

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1167 - 1178 AD - The short reign of King Harold III. King Harold III accomplished little in his reign, however he did manage to begin the restoration of the roads in England, as a means of facilitating growth and trade throughout England. Harold III died without any male heir, and this created a bit of a succession crisis.

Harold III’s eldest daughter had married Canute VI of Denmark. So Canute VI had a claim to the throne of England (a country that really had no laws of succession of which to speak). Many of the Godwins did not fancy this one bit, as they did not want to see their house replaced as the ruling house of England. Then there was the Northumbrian branch, headed by Albert, the Mercian branch, headed by Ethelred, and the Oxford branch, headed by a different Albert.

The Witanagemot was of course comprised of mostly the Godwins and their cadet branches. The succession crisis could have been avoided all together if they could agree on whom to name as king. But there was a definite North/South split in the Witanagemot. The Northern faction supported either Albert or Ethelred (they argued amongst themselves in between arguing with the Southern Faction), and the Southern faction supported Albert of Oxford almost fully. There were a few in the Witanagemot who even supported Canute VI taking the throne (these were the very few non-Godwins in the Witan).

So the problem could only be exacerbated in 1178 when Canute came personally to England to claim the throne. Canute had the support of many of the Northern reeves and thegns, who had grown tired of Godwin rule. Canute also had support of large swaths of the clergy, for Canute was from a young age noted for his piety.

The witan continued to argue over who should be made king when on August 9th, 1178 Canute walked in on the session of Witanagemot in Winchester, and argued his case.

He was promptly thrown out. He had no choice but to leave for Denmark, with full intent of having that crown. But his personal appearance did have an unintended effect: the Witanagemot were able to agree, in the face of Danish invasion, upon Albert, Earl of Oxford. He spent many of his years learning the arts of war, and a warrior king seemed quite appropriate.

1167 AD - Henry I was convinced by his wife Eleanor to invade the County of Toulouse, on account of the Ranulfids’ ancient claim to the County. But Raymond V knew that Eleanor wanted the County, and so appealed to his liege, Louis VII King of France, to garrison his cities with royal troops. That way, an attempt to seize Toulouse would mean war with the crown. Henry I wanted no such war, and as such backed off. Toulouse remained safe and out of Angevin hands.

1169 AD - Dermot MacMurrough King of Leinster is ousted and forced into exile. He appeals to King Harold III of England, however his pleas fall upon deaf ears. Harold III was not interested in getting involved in the politics of Ireland.

Dermot MacMurrough then sought the aid of Malcolm IV King of Scotland, and Malcolm IV was most interested in expanding his kingdom’s influence across the Irish sea. In return for Dermot MacMurrough marrying his daughter to Malcolm IV’s son, Malmure II, Malcolm IV promised Dermot MacMurrough that he would assist with his little situation.

1170 AD - In the same year that Malmure II had a son by the name of Duncan II, Malcolm IV gave Dermot MacMurrough an army by which he may retake his kingdom.

1171 AD - Dermot MacMurrough was successful in retaking the Kingdom of Leinster, but his dreams of becoming the High King of Ireland were out of reach. He was too old, and it had already been taken by Rory O’Connor. Rory O’Connor, not wishing to provoke a conflict with the King of Scotland, acknowledged Dermot MacMurrough as the King of Leinster, and in return Dermot MacMurrough must recognize him as the High King of Ireland. Pressured by Malcolm IV to end the conflict, Dermot MacMurrough accepted.

Dermot MacMurrough died later that year, and he left his son Domnall the King of Leinster.

1172 AD - Marie de Aquitaine marries Alfonso VIII of Castile. Eleanor arranges this marriage to secure the Pyrennean border.

1174 AD - Saladin captures Damascus.

1175 AD - Domnall Cáemánach dies without an heir. The throne of Leinster and Dublin passes to Malmure II/I. The Kings of Ireland are at first unsure of what to make of Malmure, a strange man from across the Irish Sea. But when Malmure gave large portions of Leinster to the King of Munster and the High King himself, the grumbling stopped.

During the next ten years, Malmure II would work with the Papacy to rein in the Celtic churches in Ireland. By 1185 at the Synod of Waterford, Celtic Christianity was brought to an end, and brought into the fold. Malmure’s reason for doing this were many. For one, Malmure was devoutly Catholic, but he also foresaw that he could not reign as King of Scotland, a monarch in communion with Rome, while rule over Leinster as a monarch not in communion with Rome.

1176 AD - Frederick Barbarossa defeated at the Battle of Legnano by the Lombard League. Signing of the pactum Anagninum.

1177 AD - Treaty of Venice. Pope Alexander III recognized by Frederick Barbarossa.

1179 AD - Toward the end of winter in 1179 AD, Canute VI Prince of Denmark brought to bear a large army of over 6,000, and sailed them up the River Thames under the cover of night. The original plan was to sail right into Lundenwic (OTL London), and from there secure the Thames for further waves of invaders. Canute had believed Albert would have expected him in the north, and this seemed to have been backed up by his scouts he had sent earlier. But Albert had anticipated that Lunden was of strategic importance to Canute, more so than Eoforwīc (OTL York) or Witanceaster (OTL Winchester), and as such kept most of his fleet in those regions.

The trap was executed perfectly. Canute sailed into a city garrisoned with over 8,000 troops, troops that were expecting him. Canute tried to take the city, but after only three hour’s fighting and not getting anywhere he knew he had been bested. In addition, he was losing his ships, and with them his only way out. Canute sailed away.

Albert I was hailed as a hero, akin to Harold II Godwinson. But Albert I saw this invasion as a warning, that unless standardized Laws of Succession were introduced, more trouble lay in store for England. In October of 1179 Albert I convened the Witanagemot, to discuss this issue.

Albert I effectively wanted to take the Witan out of the loop when it came to matters of succession, and install a clear law of succession, independent of the Witan’s decision.

The Witan was outraged. Who was this Oxfordian upstart? This continental-thinking ne’er-do-well? Although the desire for reducing the power of the Witanagemot was not without precedent. The blind wisdom of the Witan was first shown to be lacking when the Witan allowed Aethelred to return from exile, and over the past one hundred years or so the Witan’s decisions have led to a chaotic domestic situation. So in the eyes of many, Albert I was justified in asking for this slight increase in monarchial power.

It’s only too bad that the Witanagemot seemed to disagree with him.

The Witan realized they had created a monster, and promptly set about to replace him, that he was kin to (most of) them didn’t really seem to matter. They found that the Earl of Hereford, Ethelbert, another Godwin, would more or less fit the bill as a puppet ruler, a figurehead.

About half of the Witan balked at the idea of replacing the king, saying it would result in a loss of face, and walked out.

If only those men knew exactly what the end result of their actions would be, they might have thought twice.

Elsewhere in Europe, the Third Council of the Lateran declares Waldensians and Cathars to be heretics.

1180 AD - The Troubles of 1180. Essentially a civil war, one side supported Ethelbert and the Witanagemot, while the other side, referred to as the Cyunningesmenn (“King’s Men”), supported Albert and his own Witan. It was actually a rather short affair. Albert I was hailed as a hero, and as such the Witanagemot found themselves hard-pressed to raise a large amount of forces willing to fight against this national hero.

The Witan’s strategy was that they would be able to capture Albert I, or otherwise corner him and force him to either abdicate his throne, or to at the very least cease this reformation nonsense. To this end the Witanegamot was sure to secure Lundenwic and the Midlands, and to basically box-in the King in the southeast of England.

They hadn’t counted on the fact that Albert had so much popular support, and support of a large fraction of the nobility. The Witan was able to raise a force of just 7,000 men (they initially had a force of 10,000, however they suffered greatly from desertion and insurrection). They knew they had to defeat Albert decisively in a single battle if this gamble were to pay off.

The battle was joined in Sumortūnsete (OTL Somerset). The King’s Men numbered about 7,000, as did the Witan’s forces. The Witan had wonderful leadership, and hoped that this would prove to be the deciding factor.

It was not.

The battle took place on August 1, 1180. The Witan’s forces were utterly routed. The Witan could not regroup, and over the next four months members of the Witan would once again pledge their allegiance to Albert I, and those who didn’t were tracked down and killed in small skirmishes, or by the assassin’s blade. In a great act of mercy, Ethelbert was pardoned of his offenses. Historians agree that this was a calculated move, to endear himself to his people as a firm yet merciful king.

Albert had survived the greatest threat to his crown. Now he could get to those reforms.

Elsewhere in Europe, Louis VII dies and is succeeded by his son, Phillip II.

1181 AD - Albert I was a proud Anglo-Saxon, and was fond of tradition. He wanted a Witanegamot, it was an integral part of England’s culture. And it did serve to help keep the king’s power in check. And so he went about making the Witanegamot in his own image.

He decided that the Witanegamot would have to be divided to represent the various levels of English society. The Witanegamot would be divided into four parts: The Préosthád would represent the church, the Æðelu would represent the various Earldoms throughout the Kingdom, The þegnrǽden would represent the king’s thegns (as opposed to the median thegns, who held their lands through some intermediary lord and thus had to be content with being represented by the Æðelu or þegnrǽden), and the Líesingas, the Freedmen.

This new Witan was to have jurisdiction over taxation (any tax the king wished to impose had to be approved by the Witan), over legislation (the Witan could create new laws, however they had to be approved by the king), and over managing the state in interregnum periods. It was largely like the old Witan, but a larger swathe of society was represented, and it had absolutely no jurisdiction over succession.

Albert I installed Salic Law as the means by which England’s throne might be inherited.

For the remainder of 1181, England would be without a Witanegamot. However the next year, the new reforms would take effect.

Henry I of Champagne dies in 1181. He grants to County of Champagne to his eldest son, Henry II. Henry II also reigns as the Duke of Aquitaine with his mother.

1182 AD - The new Witan convened without problem, and the affairs of the state ran smoothly, perhaps even smoother than they had before. Things were on the up in England.

Now that he had a moment to rest, Albert sat on his throne, and came to the rumination that England was frequently invaded from the sea. His last bout with Canute VI had only underscored this in his mind.

So it was in the sultry days of 1182 that Albert I decided that he fancied sailing. He began throwing money into expanding the navy immediately, and for this he was applauded. By doing this, England was essentially drawing a line in the sand (or water, as it were), essentially saying “this is our island and if you want it you’ll have to face us on land AND sea”.

1182 - 1219 AD - The rest of Albert I’s reign was marked by peace. The Scots, although expanding their domain, were cordial to the English in their court, and the alliance set down by Harold Godwinson all those years ago continues to be upheld. The Welsh are all but puppets to the English, and the rest of the world looks on in envy at Fortress Bryten (English: Britain) for its peaceful prosperity.

It was in 1187 that the compass arrived in Europe, and soon English traders were using them as well, as trade across the North Sea continued to flourish. It was in that same year that Saladin captured Jerusalem from the Crusaders, and Pope Gregory VIII suggested the Third Crusade. Albert was largely done with war. He was quoted to have said “After fighting my own countrymen, I have no interest in fighting the Saracen.” However, this doesn’t mean that Albert didn’t advertise the Third Crusade in his own land. Prince Harold, Albert’s second son, was preparing England’s forces to go on Crusade.

A marriage of unprecedented proportions took place during the reign of Albert I. Albert I married his son Edwyn to Ada, the Countess of Holland in 1203. Ada’s inheritance of the County of Holland was being threatened by her uncle, and she needed a strong husband in a strong position to help enforce her claim to the throne. Holland was seen by Albert as a stepping stone to incorporating more valuable territories such as Hainaut or even Artois, later on.

He wouldn’t have to wait long. In 1214 Jeanne, the countess of Flanders and Hainaut Jeanne, a girl of but twelve, was only twelve years old. She was in the custody of Philip of Namur, and many in western Europe looked on Flanders/Hainaut with hungry eyes. And so in 1214 Jeanne offered herself to the youngest son of King Albert I of England, Albert.

Albert could not believe it. The richest counties in all of Europe had just fallen into his lap. Albert I of course agreed immediately.

The House of Godwin had now come to control the Counties of Hainaut, Flanders, and Holland under the reign of Albert I.

Although there were problems on the continent. As Count of Holland Edwyn was subservient to the Holy Roman Emperor. His brother was also subservient to the Holy Roman Emperor as Count of Hainaut. This drew England into continental politics.

Initially this was an acceptable, if not idyllic state of affairs. But Albert wanted to be out of politics within the Holy Roman Empire. Knowing that he could not afford to go to war with the burgeoning Holy Roman Empire, he made very little noise about it publicly.

But he saw a way out in 1214, when the war between Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor, and Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor (rival claimant) reached its fever pitch. Frederick II sent envoys to Albert, asking for assistance. Albert realized that this was his chance.

In return for an alliance against Otto IV, Albert demanded that Holland and Hainaut be released from the Holy Roman Empire. Frederick’s back was up against the wall. The war wasn’t being lost by him per se, but there was no end to the conflict in sight.

He agreed. Hainaut and Holland would be released from the Holy Roman Empire.

From 1214 - 1216 the scales were tipped in favor of Frederick II. In 1216 Frederick II forced Otto IV to renounce the title of Emperor, and Otto IV would spend the rest of his days in his private lands around Brunswick, where he would die in 1218.

For his actions in strengthening England and expanding her domains, Albert I is fondly remembered as “Albert the Magnificent”.

With Albert’s death in 1219, the kingdom passed to Edwyn, Count of Holland.

1180 AD - Louis VII dies. His son Phillip II inherits the crown of France. In that same year Louis VII marries a woman of Burgundian nobility, in order to strengthen his rather weak position. (Most of his counties, while remaining below him, were allied to or possessions of Eleanor of Aquitaine and her son, Henry II.

1188 AD - Third Crusade begins in earnest, with Frederick Barbarossa setting out from Germany with an army of 100,000.

1189 AD - Harold sets out from England with a large Crusading army. After stopping in Sicily and Crete, they arrive in the Holy Land, just after Philip II’s forces.

1190 AD - Frederick Barbarossa is drowned after being thrown off his horse whilst crossing the Saleph River. Much of the gargantuan German army turns back then. The rest continue on to Antioch, however they continue to suffer from disease.

1191 AD - The three main crusading armies: French under Phillip II, English under Harold, and Germans under Leopold V, all convene on Acre. Acre is captured, and it is the first major victory for the Third Crusade.

Conrad of Montferrat is made King of Jerusalem.

Malcolm IV king of Scotland dies. He is succeeded by Malmure II, who was also King of Leinster.

1192 AD - Jaffa, which Saladin garrisoned very heavily and fortified very well, falls to the Crusaders after a hard fight. The Christians were bruised but continued on. But later in the year Saladin deals a severe blow to the Crusaders in the field, as they began their march east to Jerusalem.

Harold and Leopold realized that even if they could take Jerusalem, it would not be defensible, as Saladin would just summon another army from his vast domain. Philip was not so sure, but when Leopold left the Holy Land late in 1192, Harold and Philip began negotiations with Saladin.

Harold and Philip allowed Saladin to keep Jerusalem, however he must allow free passage for unarmed Christian pilgrims. Saladin was quick to accept, knowing that he had completed his goal of keeping Jerusalem from Crusader hands.

1193 AD - Harold and Philip return to their respective kingdoms.

1198 AD - Rory O’Connor, High King of Ireland, dies. Immediately Ireland is up in arms. The King of Connacht, Conchobar O’Connor has a claim to the title as High King from his father, Rory. But the O’Neals of Ulster were High Kings before Rory, and felt ousted. Malmure II knew that this would be his one opportunity to seize control for himself.

Malmure supported Conchobar in his claim to the throne, so long as he was granted the title King of Ulster. For Conchobar, this was nothing less than a godsend. The King of Scotland supports you in becoming the High King of Ireland!

1199 - 1200 AD - The Scottish conquest of Munster. Malmure II is now King of Scotland, Leinster, Dublin, and Ulster. Conchobar has secured the High Kingship for the O’Connors once and for all.

1200 AD - University of Paris chartered by Philip II.

1201 AD - Proclamation of the Fourth Crusade. Most of Europe remains idle this time around, and watched with bemusement as a gaggle of Italians marched around the Balkans, claiming that to take these cities aided Christendom. In that same year they take the city of Zara.

1202 AD - Zadar falls to the Fourth Crusade.

1204 AD - The Fourth Crusade sacks Constantinople. The Fourth Crusade was proclaimed to be at an end, and the Latin Empire of Constantinople is proclaimed. Alexius V flees to create the Empire of Nicaea, Alexios Komnenos creates the Empire of Trebizond, and Michael Komnenos Doukas creates the Despotate of Epirus.

Also in this year, Eleanor of Aquitaine finally dies. Her possessions are divided among her sons, however the Duchy of Aquitaine passes to Henry II, thus maintaining the “empire” that she and her husband had created.

1206 AD - Temujin proclaimed Genghis Khan of the Mongols.

1209 AD - Albigensian Crusade begins. Henry II jumps at the chance to press his ancient claim to the County (the same claim his mother had). Philip II would under other circumstances tried to stop this Champagnian grab for power, however he saw the Albigensian Crusade more of as a means to drain his own coffers than to expand his power. And so he let Henry II do all the footwork for him.

1209 - 1215 AD - Henry II of Champagne effectively conquers all of the County of Toulouse. He claims the County for himself, yet pays homage to the King of France. Fort he longest time the County of Toulouse was virtually an independent country, and Henry II of Champagne brought the County into the royal sphere.

Philip was wrong about the war. Far from draining his coffers, it was proving to expand his coffers. And as such it was in late 1215 that Philip sent his own army to help with occupation and rooting out Cathar sympathizers.

1212 AD - Malmure II/I dies. He passes the Kingdom of Scotland, Leinster, Dublin, and Munster to his son, Duncan II/I.

1216 - 1219 AD - The last years of the Albigensian Crusade (which was now essentially a struggle for Champagnian dominion over the County of Toulouse) was marked by a rather effective counter-attack by Raymond VI, deposed Count of Toulouse, and Raymond VII, his heir-apparent. But with a large royal French army backing up Henry II’s forces, the attack petered-out by mid-1219. Raymond VI would be killed in battle, and Raymond VII retreated to Spain. Exactly what happened to him next is up for debate, however most historians believe that he was assassinated by assassins paid for by William XI/I, Henry’s heir.

Henry II died in 1219 after securing the County of Toulouse for his heirs. To his eldest, William XI/I, he gave the Duchy of Aquitaine and the County of Champagne. To his son Henry he gave the County of Toulouse (William I, Count of Toulouse), and to his son Theobald he gave the County of Auvergne.

In 1217 the Fifth Crusade began, with little fanfare. However the Pope was just barely able to scrounge up enough support for it to create a coherent army.

1219 - 1242 AD - Reign of Edwyn I King of England and Count of Holland. Edwyn presided over a peaceful kingdom during this time. Early on in his reign Edwyn I had to find a way to deal with two predominant questions: How to rule over the newly-freed Counties of Holland and Hainaut (the latter being owned by his brother), and how to somehow pull the County of Flanders out of the Peerage of France.

As to the first problem he at first considered remaking the Counties of Holland and Hainaut into Earldoms. But the courts at these two places were accustomed to doing things a certain way, and as such expressed hostility to such reforms. In the end, Edwyn created “Niðerlandisc laga” (Dutch Law), as a way of keeping the two means of governance separate, yet equal. Under Dutch Law, basically the means of governing the Counties remained the same. Dutch Law also clarified that the Count was at the same level as an Earl, and so on and so forth.

But under Dutch Law a new office was created. The Count of Holland, the Count of Hainaut, and the Count of Flanders would meet to elect the “Niðerlandisc ǽrendraca” (Dutch Representative), essentially an extra member of the Witan, who would act as representative for the Counties in the Witanagemot.

As to the second question, there was really no answer. The Count of Flanders would remain under the peerage of France. However, as the King of England wasn’t the Count of Flanders, this caused very little problem in Edwyn’s eyes.

In 1242, Edwyn I dies. He is succeeded by Edwyn II.

1222 AD - Philip II King of France dies, and is succeeded by his son, Philip III.

1228 AD - Beginning of Sixth Crusade, launched by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor.

1229 AD - With no military engagements the Sixth Crusade retakes Jerusalem via a treaty with al-Kamil.

1230 AD - Union of Castile and Leon.

1231 AD - Duncan II dies. He passes his Kingdoms to his son Duncan III.

1240 AD - Sacking of Kiev by the Mongols.

1241 AD - Battle of Liegnitz. In that same year, however, Ogedei Khan dies, and this ends the Mongol advance into Europe.

1244 AD - Jerusalem is taken once more. This prompts Phillip III to begin to create a Crusading army, and thus the Seventh Crusade begins.

1249 AD - Phillip III leaves. Although an old man, he still wishes to leave. He allows his son to act as regent while he is away.

1247 AD - The last remaining Cathars are slaughtered. This marks the official end of the Albigensian Crusade.

1252 AD - Phillip III dies in the Holy Land. The Crusade had been a disaster, and the death of Philip gave Edwyn II an excuse to go home. Besides, he is needed there. The Welsh were acting up again, and Edwyn II was of the mind to permanently put down this thorn in his side.

Philip III is succeeded by his son, Louis VIII.

1253 AD - Edwyn II returns home, and wastes no time in preparing for the invasion that he hopes will end the Welsh troubles once and for all.

1254 - 1259 AD - Edwyn II’s Welsh Campaign. It takes many years for the Welsh to fall, but the English brought a weapon familiar to the Welsh to the battlefield: the longbow. The English had been raising their own longbow forces for years now (after the conquest of southeastern Wales), and knew that once they brought these troops to the battlefield, the Welsh would lose a major advantage.

Turns out they were right. The campaign was difficult and sporadic, to say the least. However by 1259 Wales was taken, bar the shouting. Wales was conquered, and divided into earldoms. Edwyn II knew that his predecessors’ method of dealing with the Welsh would have only proved effective for a while. By conquering Wales, Edwyn II hoped to end the troubles on the Welsh border once and for all.

1258 AD - Baghdad is overrun by Hulagu Khan’s forces. The Abbasid Caliphate is officially at an end.

1261 AD - Constantinople is recaptured by the Empire of Nicaea, thus re-establishing the Byzantine Empire.

1266 AD - In France, the gold écu and silver grosh coins are minted for the first time.​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hope you like it! I kind of ran out of ideas toward the end. I could really see nothing that involved England or France that was really interesting. IOTL around the 1260s there were interesting things going on in Sicily, but these have been butterflied away...

Questions? Comments?

And, of course...

Senores, El Map-o!

map.png
 
I like this TL:)

But two questions:

The English holdings in the low countries do not border each other?

Who is ruling Cyprus in this TL?
 
Albert I installed Salic Law as the means by which England’s throne might be inherited.

Why does a Saxon king use a forgotten Frankish law, espacially as the french have not yet ressurrected it.

So it was in the sultry days of 1182 that Albert I decided that he fancied sailing. He began throwing money into expanding the navy immediately, and for this he was applauded. By doing this, England was essentially drawing a line in the sand (or water, as it were), essentially saying “this is our island and if you want it you’ll have to face us on land AND sea”.

Where does that leave Scotland? DO England commit its Navy to fight for SCotland? What if there was a civil war in SCotland and one of the claimant or both drew in outside allies?




1201 AD - Proclamation of the Fourth Crusade. Most of Europe remains idle this time around, and watched with bemusement as a gaggle of Italians marched around the Balkans, claiming that to take these cities aided Christendom. In that same year they take the city of Zara.

1202 AD - Zadar falls to the Fourth Crusade.

1204 AD - The Fourth Crusade sacks Constantinople. The Fourth Crusade was proclaimed to be at an end, and the Latin Empire of Constantinople is proclaimed. Alexius V flees to create the Empire of Nicaea, Alexios Komnenos creates the Empire of Trebizond, and Michael Komnenos Doukas creates the Despotate of Epirus.

If the crusade is limited to Italians, how can they take and hold Constantinoples? OTL 4th Crusade was much stronger than this.
 




A marriage of unprecedented proportions took place during the reign of Albert I. Albert I married his son Edwyn to Ada, the Countess of Holland in 1203. Ada’s inheritance of the County of Holland was being threatened by her uncle, and she needed a strong husband in a strong position to help enforce her claim to the throne. Holland was seen by Albert as a stepping stone to incorporating more valuable territories such as Hainaut or even Artois, later on.

He wouldn’t have to wait long. In 1214 Jeanne, the countess of Flanders and Hainaut Jeanne, a girl of but twelve, was only twelve years old. She was in the custody of Philip of Namur, and many in western Europe looked on Flanders/Hainaut with hungry eyes. And so in 1214 Jeanne offered herself to the youngest son of King Albert I of England, Albert.

Albert could not believe it. The richest counties in all of Europe had just fallen into his lap. Albert I of course agreed immediately.

The House of Godwin had now come to control the Counties of Hainaut, Flanders, and Holland under the reign of Albert I.

Although there were problems on the continent. As Count of Holland Edwyn was subservient to the Holy Roman Emperor. His brother was also subservient to the Holy Roman Emperor as Count of Hainaut. This drew England into continental politics.

Initially this was an acceptable, if not idyllic state of affairs. But Albert wanted to be out of politics within the Holy Roman Empire. Knowing that he could not afford to go to war with the burgeoning Holy Roman Empire, he made very little noise about it publicly.

But he saw a way out in 1214, when the war between Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor, and Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor (rival claimant) reached its fever pitch. Frederick II sent envoys to Albert, asking for assistance. Albert realized that this was his chance.

In return for an alliance against Otto IV, Albert demanded that Holland and Hainaut be released from the Holy Roman Empire. Frederick’s back was up against the wall. The war wasn’t being lost by him per se, but there was no end to the conflict in sight.

He agreed. Hainaut and Holland would be released from the Holy Roman Empire.

From 1214 - 1216 the scales were tipped in favor of Frederick II. In 1216 Frederick II forced Otto IV to renounce the title of Emperor, and Otto IV would spend the rest of his days in his private lands around Brunswick, where he would die in 1218.

For his actions in strengthening England and expanding her domains, Albert I is fondly remembered as “Albert the Magnificent”.

With Albert’s death in 1219, the kingdom passed to Edwyn, Count of Holland.

1219 - 1242 AD - Reign of Edwyn I King of England and Count of Holland. Edwyn presided over a peaceful kingdom during this time. Early on in his reign Edwyn I had to find a way to deal with two predominant questions: How to rule over the newly-freed Counties of Holland and Hainaut (the latter being owned by his brother), and how to somehow pull the County of Flanders out of the Peerage of France.

As to the first problem he at first considered remaking the Counties of Holland and Hainaut into Earldoms. But the courts at these two places were accustomed to doing things a certain way, and as such expressed hostility to such reforms. In the end, Edwyn created “Niðerlandisc laga” (Dutch Law), as a way of keeping the two means of governance separate, yet equal. Under Dutch Law, basically the means of governing the Counties remained the same. Dutch Law also clarified that the Count was at the same level as an Earl, and so on and so forth.

But under Dutch Law a new office was created. The Count of Holland, the Count of Hainaut, and the Count of Flanders would meet to elect the “Niðerlandisc ǽrendraca” (Dutch Representative), essentially an extra member of the Witan, who would act as representative for the Counties in the Witanagemot.

As to the second question, there was really no answer. The Count of Flanders would remain under the peerage of France. However, as the King of England wasn’t the Count of Flanders, this caused very little problem in Edwyn’s eyes.


You could also add the county of zeeland (the Islands between Flanders and Holland) to that list. I believe at this point the count of Holland was also count of zeeland. You did colour it already Orange on your map btw.
 

Thande

Donor
Thermo, apologies as I haven't caught up with all your recent posts yet, but I just saw your map, and why is the Anglo-Scots border exactly the same as the modern OTL one? :confused: I mean, it changed quite a lot throughout the OTL era you're considering here, and as someone (stevep?) suggested earlier, the English are probably going to be able to hold onto the east of Scotland, though perhaps not all the way up to Edinburgh...
 
I like this TL:)

But two questions:

The English holdings in the low countries do not border each other?

Who is ruling Cyprus in this TL?

Because the County of Flanders and the County of Holland did not border each other. They were seperated by the islands of Zeeland.

Cyprus? Dunno. I figured a Frenchman. I'll look into it...

Why does a Saxon king use a forgotten Frankish law, espacially as the french have not yet ressurrected it.

I only used it as a terminology, to refer to the fact that the heirs of the English throne had to be males. That is how Salic Law works, no?

I changed that entry just now:

Albert I created clear laws of succession. The eldest living son would inherit the throne. The daughters of the king could not inherit the throne, however if the king has no living brother then the throne can pass to the son of the eldest daughter.

Better?

Where does that leave Scotland? DO England commit its Navy to fight for SCotland? What if there was a civil war in SCotland and one of the claimant or both drew in outside allies?

England's navy is mostly defensive, in response to the invasion by Canute. I suppose England would commit its navy to fighting the invaders of Scotland...

If the crusade is limited to Italians, how can they take and hold Constantinoples? OTL 4th Crusade was much stronger than this.

IIRC, no it wasn't. It was headed mainly by Venice and a few other Italian states. Venice basically hijacked the Crusade and used it to serve their own interests.

You could also add the county of zeeland (the Islands between Flanders and Holland) to that list. I believe at this point the count of Holland was also count of zeeland. You did colour it already Orange on your map btw.

I didn't realize Zeeland was its own idept. county? I thought it was basically argued over by the County of Holland and the County of Flanders at this point in history...

Thermo, apologies as I haven't caught up with all your recent posts yet, but I just saw your map, and why is the Anglo-Scots border exactly the same as the modern OTL one? :confused: I mean, it changed quite a lot throughout the OTL era you're considering here, and as someone (stevep?) suggested earlier, the English are probably going to be able to hold onto the east of Scotland, though perhaps not all the way up to Edinburgh...

I know, but I really had no idea where to put the border. I couldn't find what the border was pre-1066 (the border Harold II likely would have made as the permanent border). :eek: I just stuck it there so I could get this map out. You have any suggestions as to where to put it?

Besides that, how's the rest of the TL look?

@all

Thank you for your criticisms/suggestions! That's how you make a TL better. :D
 

Thande

Donor
Yes, the Scots did hold northern Cumbria in 1000 as that map suggests. My point was that we might well be able to push the border on the eastern side well north of Berwick if the Normans hadn't messed about, though I think taking Edinburgh back is a bit optimistic.

See 800 AD map here for historic claims. Berwick is not marked but it's at the mouth of the Tweed river, just north of Bamburgh.

British_isles_802.jpg
 
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