These Hills Sing of Saxon Kings

[KieronAntony]

And the second. However bear in mind the effects of history and that this might alter where the people live somewhat.

 

[Wendell]

Specifically what borders?

Parts of the borders of the following:

Serbia
Bulgaria
Ukraine
Poland
Finland
Albania
Azerbaijan
Macedonia
Lithuania (Baltics and Belarus)

 

[Thermopylae]

Serbia

That was the traditional Serbian homeland, though, even before the PoD of 1066. Unless, of course, I am mistaken.

Bulgaria

Bulgaria is actually quite different. It is lacking a huge chunk of its southern half (the Ottoman autonomous province of Eastern Rumelia.

Ukraine

Laziness on my part.

Poland

Which one? I can sort of understand the eastern border being too analogous to OTL, but the western border is very, very clearly defined as the limits of the Holy Roman Empire. It’s been a border for a very long time. And the border with Prussia is defined by ethnicity.

I knew there was a reason for Poland’s OTL eastern border, but it currently escapes me at the moment. IIRC it was based on ethnic lines.

Finland

Again, laziness on my part. Didn’t know enough off the top of my head pertaining to what defines the Finnish border, and why it was that way.

Albania

Also on ethnic lines. And the fact that I really don’t know HOW else to divide that particular country. Nobody else really has a claim, AFAIK.

Azerbaijan

That was supposed to be temporary. That’s not even it’s name, most likely. I had created it knowing that during the Russian Revolution the Muslims in that region would most likely go for establishing their own country.

Macedonia

Wasn’t really sure what to do with that. I knew it couldn’t stay with the Germiyanids, but I didn’t know what else I could have done with it.

Lithuania (Baltics and Belarus)

Now, Belarus I can understand. In fact, I just C&P’d the border onto my map. p) My goal was to simulate the traditional border of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as closely as possible off the top of my head. That’ll be worked out.

But why the Baltics? It’s a very clearly defined region both geographically and ethnically.

@KieronAntony

Thank you! Bosnia proves to be the most interesting, at first glance. I can see many, many possibilites there.

 

[Wendell]

That was the traditional Serbian homeland, though, even before the PoD of 1066. Unless, of course, I am mistaken.

Parts of it sure, but other parts of it have other groups present in significant number historically. Also , I think that ealry Serbia was more concentrated in Bosnia, but I could be wrong.

Bulgaria is actually quite different. It is lacking a huge chunk of its southern half (the Ottoman autonomous province of Eastern Rumelia.

Something I never intended to dispute, but what about the other borders for Bulgaria?

Laziness on my part.

okay

Which one? I can sort of understand the eastern border being too analogous to OTL, but the western border is very, very clearly defined as the limits of the Holy Roman Empire. It’s been a border for a very long time. And the border with Prussia is defined by ethnicity.

Again, not all of the borders are nonsensical, just pars, particularly those in the east. That said, domains back in the day often included people who could be construed to be of different ethnicities. Although, at times, ethnicity was poorly defined in Europe.

I knew there was a reason for Poland’s OTL eastern border, but it currently escapes me at the moment. IIRC it was based on ethnic lines.

Since 1945, maybe

Again, laziness on my part. Didn’t know enough off the top of my head pertaining to what defines the Finnish border, and why it was that way.

The Winter War, although similar (but not identical) borders to those have existed between Russia and (at the time Swedish-controlled) Finland.

Also on ethnic lines. And the fact that I really don’t know HOW else to divide that particular country. Nobody else really has a claim, AFAIK.

Serbia has had claims to it in the past. Certainly the Greeks and Germiyanids.

That was supposed to be temporary. That’s not even it’s name, most likely. I had created it knowing that during the Russian Revolution the Muslims in that region would most likely go for establishing their own country.

How about adjusting its borders, and calling it Shirvan?

Wasn’t really sure what to do with that. I knew it couldn’t stay with the Germiyanids, but I didn’t know what else I could have done with it.

The Serbs would like it. Bulgaria is there too. Nonetheless, it could be under the ownership you suggest, I was just questioning the precise course of the white line there.

Now, Belarus I can understand. In fact, I just C&P’d the border onto my map. p) My goal was to simulate the traditional border of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as closely as possible off the top of my head. That’ll be worked out.

Excellent. Wikipedia may be of use here. Euratlas should be even better.

But why the Baltics? It’s a very clearly defined region both geographically and ethnically.

Yes and no. Nonetheless, there are disputes between the Baltics and Russia, and have been to some degree or another since 1917. Also, borders were not traditionally drawn by ethnicity.

 

[Thermopylae]

Parts of it sure, but other parts of it have other groups present in significant number historically. Also , I think that ealry Serbia was more concentrated in Bosnia, but I could be wrong.

To make it easier on myself, I'll assume that the Serbs spread in a similar fashion as IOTL.

Something I never intended to dispute, but what about the other borders for Bulgaria?

The only other border is with Serbia. Which I will be fixing thanks to Kieron's wonderful resources.

Again, not all of the borders are nonsensical, just pars, particularly those in the east. That said, domains back in the day often included people who could be construed to be of different ethnicities. Although, at times, ethnicity was poorly defined in Europe.

Since 1945, maybe

You win, you win, I'll change it!

The Winter War, although similar (but not identical) borders to those have existed between Russia and (at the time Swedish-controlled) Finland.

Any resources? The Finnish border is beginning to bother me, too, I'd love to mess with it a bit.

Serbia has had claims to it in the past. Certainly the Greeks and Germiyanids.

It going to any of those is a nonstarter. The Slavs in the area want independence (so no Germiyanids), but don't want to be with Greece, and don't want to be with Serbia (since Serbia is recovering from the Great War)

How about adjusting its borders, and calling it Shirvan?

Capital idea!

The Serbs would like it. Bulgaria is there too. Nonetheless, it could be under the ownership you suggest, I was just questioning the precise course of the white line there.

The white line represents a significant degree of autonomy.

Yes and no. Nonetheless, there are disputes between the Baltics and Russia, and have been to some degree or another since 1917. Also, borders were not traditionally drawn by ethnicity.

But Russia has no claim to the area ITTL. Except maybe Novgorod. But that is easily dealt with.

So the main borders that need to be changed, if I'm hearing you right, are:

-Ukraine
-Azerbaijan
-Lithuania's
-Finland's
-Poland's eastern borders
-Rework Balkans generally

Oh, and I'll have a world map tommorow guys. It's been tricky thinking of how to best carve-up Africa.

 

[Wendell]

This map from Wikipedia should be helpful:

 

[Thermopylae]

The Bryttisc Empire, the Imperial Federation, and all of their Associated States, 1950.

 

[G.Bone]

Great map...although that huge bite in the middle of Africa seems a bit awkward.

How has the Ethiopian Christian Church 'reformed' with the Saxon version of it?

 

[Thermopylae]

Great map...although that huge bite in the middle of Africa seems a bit awkward.

How has the Ethiopian Christian Church 'reformed' with the Saxon version of it?

The huge bit is really just Portugese and Castilian colonial holdings, really. A bit awkward looking I suppose, but for the Empire's needs it suits them just fine.

The Ethiopian religion has not suffered a bit, since it is a Protectorate, not an actual Imperial territory. However, I would suppose that there's a great deal more Catholics in the country, what with the odd Bryttisc missionary here and there.

 

[Wendell]

This British empire is interesting when compared to that of our timeline.

 

[G.Bone]

The huge bit is really just Portugese and Castilian colonial holdings, really. A bit awkward looking I suppose, but for the Empire's needs it suits them just fine.

I thought both realms fell apart.

So much for the transcontinental railway in Africa?

Hasn't the evolved Saxon-Anglo language dropped the -wic from London? The only reason why I am saying this is due to the evolution of language as in a particular long phrase that is shortened over time.

 

[Thermopylae]

This British empire is interesting when compared to that of our timeline.

Indeed it is. The most striking thing to me being that without a nascent Japanese Empire taking control of the rubber resources et al. in the East Indies, the development of local African industries has taken a much slower pace, thus staving off the economic requirements for decolonization.

I thought both realms fell apart.

The Union between the two did. Seperate, they're doing quite well for themselves.

So much for the transcontinental railway in Africa?

Not so! There is a direct territorial link from the Cape to Cairo. Egypt is a protectorate, doncha'know?

Hasn't the evolved Saxon-Anglo language dropped the -wic from London? The only reason why I am saying this is due to the evolution of language as in a particular long phrase that is shortened over time.

I haven't really pondered linguistics, but I suppose you're correct.

 

[Wendell]

What would a religious map look like for the current year of TTL?

 

[Thermopylae]

What would a religious map look like for the current year of TTL?

A LOT less Protestantism. Think Northern Germany and Scandinavia for the Old World, and a fair bit of the New World (Exiles, you see).

I can probably put one together to go with the final update...

 

[Wendell]

A LOT less Protestantism. Think Northern Germany and Scandinavia for the Old World, and a fair bit of the New World (Exiles, you see).

I can probably put one together to go with the final update...

Please do so.

Is there a continuous railroad from Accra to Mombasa as well in this TL?

 

[Thermopylae]

Please do so.

Is there a continuous railroad from Accra to Mombasa as well in this TL?

But of course! Such a railroad would be a boon to trade between the Indian and Atlantic Oceans. And if a Cape-to-Cairo railway is developed, Mombassa easily becomes the economic heart and transportational hub of Africa.

 

[Thande]

If you want something a bit different, Lundenwic (which I might add was pretty much Lunden at the time of the Conquest, but anyway-) could be worn down differently to OTL. How about 'Denwick' (pronounced Dennick) ?

 

[Thermopylae]

If you want something a bit different, Lundenwic (which I might add was pretty much Lunden at the time of the Conquest, but anyway-) could be worn down differently to OTL. How about 'Denwick' (pronounced Dennick) ?

What does "-wic" mean? I've been wondering as to its necessity the entire time I've been writing...

'Denwick' is an alternate name for London? Do elaborate...

 

[Wendell]

What does "-wic" mean? I've been wondering as to its necessity the entire time I've been writing...

'Denwick' is an alternate name for London? Do elaborate...

Denwick, short for Lundenwic.

Also "Wic" would be an earlier variant (and the derivative) of our timelines -wich, as in Ipswich.

 

[Thande]

-wic is simply one Anglo-Saxon word for city.

In OTL it was worn down into a variety of forms depending on region, as the Englisc language developed differently as the Folk spread further across the island in the 400s and communities ended up isolated from each other.

For example, it's -wich in Ipswich, as Wendell points out, but -wick in Warwick etc. Also note that the w is usually silent in modern OTL English: Warwick is Warrik, Norwich is Norritch, etc. It is sounded in Ipswich, though, because we like being inconsistent

Similar examples are -ceastre, which can be -chester, -caster or several other variants depending on region, and -burh, which has become -burgh or -borough or -bury depending on region.

-ham is the only Anglo-Saxon word for settlement which hasn't changed much, although again in modern English the H is often silent or smeared into the preceding part (Oldham is Owull-dum, Grantham has gone from being Grant-ham to Granth-am)