These Hills Sing of Saxon Kings
- Thread starter Thermopylae
- Start date
I particularly like this one that I compiled. Simplistic, yet detailed...
FOTW provided a Yellow Dragon for Wessex, so I changed it to white...
El Flagg-o!
FOTW provided a Yellow Dragon for Wessex, so I changed it to white...
El Flagg-o!
Thande
Donor
That's a wyvern not a dragon though. Wessex used a wyvern, England as a whole used a dragon.
Well, that first one you posted is awful nice and would fit the bill. If only we could clean it up a little bit...
Thermopylae
Looking interesting. A couple of small quibbles. + another that occurred as I wrote.
a) You mentioned “1144 AD - King Edward dies. He is succeeded by his son Edward (III)“ There were two English Edward's before 1066 so shouldn't that be Edward IV?
b) Not sure if Harold would have had problems with the Welsh after his successes in 1066 and victories that deposed their earlier king. Can see Malcolm causing problems but not at this point too much from the west.
In the succession debate after Harold II's death you didn't mention Edgar the descendant of the old House of Wessex. Nor any mention of the dynasty after that. He was passed over in 1066 as he was still very young then and had recently returned from Hungary, where he had grown up. However by Harold's death I would have though he would have merited consideration, unless he had an accident somewhere in the time since perhaps?
Anyway interested to see how things develop.
Steve
PS I share Thande's warm feeling at a Norman free England
Looking interesting. A couple of small quibbles. + another that occurred as I wrote.
a) You mentioned “1144 AD - King Edward dies. He is succeeded by his son Edward (III)“ There were two English Edward's before 1066 so shouldn't that be Edward IV?
b) Not sure if Harold would have had problems with the Welsh after his successes in 1066 and victories that deposed their earlier king. Can see Malcolm causing problems but not at this point too much from the west.
In the succession debate after Harold II's death you didn't mention Edgar the descendant of the old House of Wessex. Nor any mention of the dynasty after that. He was passed over in 1066 as he was still very young then and had recently returned from Hungary, where he had grown up. However by Harold's death I would have though he would have merited consideration, unless he had an accident somewhere in the time since perhaps?
Anyway interested to see how things develop.
Steve
PS I share Thande's warm feeling at a Norman free England
Right! I knew there was Edward the Confessor, but that was about it.
Why's that? Welsh raided with much success in 1066 and earlier, I could easily see them continuing until they were told to stop...
True. But he lived in exile most of his life, and Harold's son was there, fighting for England. I think that the Witanegamot would, in the argument as to whether it should be his son or his brother, in this instance choose his son.
But you're right, he deserves at least a mention...
Anyway interested to see how things develop.
Steve
PS I share Thande's warm feeling at a Norman free England
Thank you!
PS I share Thande's warm feeling at a Norman free England
As do I.
For obvious reasons...
However, I may have been erased from history...
What about some of the wider ramifications for the defeat of William.
How would this disaster affect the expansive momentum of the Normans generally? Would Sicily still become a Norman kingdom for example? Would the Norman adventurers take the place of OTLs Saxons and joint the Varagians in Byzantium? Would this defeat be seen by historians as the final ebbing of the Viking tide?
What about English relations with the Continent? Anglo-Saxon nobility and members of the royal family intermarried with much, if not most, of the rest of the European royalty including Kievan Rus. I would think that this would continue and so negate some historians claims that it was The Bastards conquest that opened England up to the continent.
Why would Elanore still marry Henry? He would be a particularly minor ruler without the Conquest adding the richest and most stable polity in Europe to his kingdom. Surely a suitable Anglo-Saxon prince could be found for her. Probably the heir if no other pressing marraige alliance was needed. After all, Aquitaine was a very respectable aquisition for any ruler. Not to mention Elanore herself!
I really liked your emphasis on city building by the Saxon kings. This is exactly what would be expected of them. And instead of building castles all over England to supress the people, they invest their wealth in cities and civilization. In other words, a continuation of the policy of the Saxon kings since Alfred the Great. Wales brought into the kingdom by the attraction of city life and its attendent wealth rather than by the construction of castles alone is very appealing.
The opportunity for expansion on the Continent seems to me to havebeen reduced by the Conquest rather than enhanced. All that energy directed solely on keeping the possessions the Normans already had instead of having a relatively free hand to acquire anything that became available.
What would the chances of employing Norman cavalry as mercenaries on the Continent be? Even perhaps paying them a bonus of land if the campaigns were successful?
How would this disaster affect the expansive momentum of the Normans generally? Would Sicily still become a Norman kingdom for example? Would the Norman adventurers take the place of OTLs Saxons and joint the Varagians in Byzantium? Would this defeat be seen by historians as the final ebbing of the Viking tide?
What about English relations with the Continent? Anglo-Saxon nobility and members of the royal family intermarried with much, if not most, of the rest of the European royalty including Kievan Rus. I would think that this would continue and so negate some historians claims that it was The Bastards conquest that opened England up to the continent.
Why would Elanore still marry Henry? He would be a particularly minor ruler without the Conquest adding the richest and most stable polity in Europe to his kingdom. Surely a suitable Anglo-Saxon prince could be found for her. Probably the heir if no other pressing marraige alliance was needed. After all, Aquitaine was a very respectable aquisition for any ruler. Not to mention Elanore herself!
I really liked your emphasis on city building by the Saxon kings. This is exactly what would be expected of them. And instead of building castles all over England to supress the people, they invest their wealth in cities and civilization. In other words, a continuation of the policy of the Saxon kings since Alfred the Great. Wales brought into the kingdom by the attraction of city life and its attendent wealth rather than by the construction of castles alone is very appealing.
The opportunity for expansion on the Continent seems to me to havebeen reduced by the Conquest rather than enhanced. All that energy directed solely on keeping the possessions the Normans already had instead of having a relatively free hand to acquire anything that became available.
What would the chances of employing Norman cavalry as mercenaries on the Continent be? Even perhaps paying them a bonus of land if the campaigns were successful?
My butterflies have yet to kick in, so: Sicily DOES become a Norman kingdom again, mainly because of the ineffectiveness of the previous rulers. The Normans might have begun enlisting in the Varangian Guard, were it not for the Crusades to provide an alternate path to glory, and that bit about the Viking tide ebbing is a good point.
Give it some time. They have intermarried, but mainly with Danes and Scots (which will later have interesting ramifications). I am hesitant to just go off and marry one of these fictional monarchs to a real person because it may have unforseen consequences, but yes that is a trend to look for in the future.
There was no suitable Anglo-Saxon prince (my way of keeping away a potential for the HYW, one of the major draws for me to this TL). She would still marry Henry... well, I don't know. Any ideas besides an Anglo-Saxon prince? My reasoning was that Eleanor would do that out of spite for Louis...
Thank you.
And this changes with the marriage with Eleanor...
I really don't know. The mercenary market of medieval Europe is not really my forte. DO you have any suggestions?
Thank you for reading!
Eleanor motivated by spite! Surely not
Well she needed a strong ruler to protect Aquitane from Louis and besides she was, by all accounts, also very attracted to Henry physically. In your ATL who but an Anglo-Saxon prince or king could provide that level of military protection to her domains?
Another thought - castles would be unnecessary in Wales because infantry would still be the backbone of the English military. What ramifications would this have in Europe generally and the status of the knights?
Mercenaries were employed in the eleventh century, in England in OTL. With the Anglo-Saxon weakness in cavalry the idea of hiring them would be appealling. Byzantine and ancient Roman contemporary practices and precedents respectively would give them the idea earlier.
Well she needed a strong ruler to protect Aquitane from Louis and besides she was, by all accounts, also very attracted to Henry physically. In your ATL who but an Anglo-Saxon prince or king could provide that level of military protection to her domains?
Another thought - castles would be unnecessary in Wales because infantry would still be the backbone of the English military. What ramifications would this have in Europe generally and the status of the knights?
Mercenaries were employed in the eleventh century, in England in OTL. With the Anglo-Saxon weakness in cavalry the idea of hiring them would be appealling. Byzantine and ancient Roman contemporary practices and precedents respectively would give them the idea earlier.
If your Saxon Kings are putting money into the Cities, Mavbe they also put some into repair and upkeep on the Roman Roads. IIRC this is what the Dragon of England represents.
"The Cobblestone Roads of the Romans , laid like a Dragons Scales, ov'r the land of England"
Remembre the quote but not the Quotee.
"Development follows transportation"
"The Cobblestone Roads of the Romans , laid like a Dragons Scales, ov'r the land of England"
Remembre the quote but not the Quotee.
"Development follows transportation"
Faeelin
Banned
Friedrich I, the Holy Roman Emperor.
Or, more serious, whoever's the count of champagne at this point.
Thande
Donor
It's the other way around, Duquense. The roads were compared to the dragon symbol. (I would like to see such a programme of repair, but as the A-S hadn't done it in the last few centuries...maybe if they had a king who had it as his pet project?)
The dragon comes from a legend of Merlin, that he saw a white dragon and a red dragon fighting, and the white dragon was triumphant - symbolic of the English triumphing over the Britons and driving them into Wales. The Welsh still use the red dragon as their symbol, but the English white dragon was sadly mostly forgotten after the Conquest in OTL, and replaced with the Norman St George's cross and 3 lions
Would there be a Henry?
[FONT="]Actually, this caught my attention enough for me to make my first post in the board. Why would there be a Henry in this TL? I mean, there seem to be no reason for a White Ship disaster this time (why would the heir of Normandy be doing going to England?). And as William Adelin was married to Isabella d'Anjou, there was already a connection between Anjou and Normandy. There would be no reason for 'Empress' Matilda and Geoffrey Plantagenet to get married.
[/FONT]Hope I've helped,
Leonardo
[FONT="]Actually, this caught my attention enough for me to make my first post in the board. Why would there be a Henry in this TL? I mean, there seem to be no reason for a White Ship disaster this time (why would the heir of Normandy be doing going to England?). And as William Adelin was married to Isabella d'Anjou, there was already a connection between Anjou and Normandy. There would be no reason for 'Empress' Matilda and Geoffrey Plantagenet to get married.
[/FONT]Hope I've helped,
Leonardo
Were you being serious here? Because IIRC Eleanor and Louis hated each other...
The Normans are still rather strong, if lacking in the manpower that they would have had had they conquered England. The Normans are still renowned due to their valiant efforts in the Crusades and their conquest of Sicily/Southern Italy. So yes, the power factor is not an issue so much. (Not to mention it would give Louis a northern border to worry about).
Hmm? Castles would still be necessary for administrative purposes, and for purposes of putting down rebellion quickly, whilst providing an easily defensible location...
Well, Norman knights would be hired, but they REALLY don't need them right now. Scotland's basically a puppet, Wales is irrelevant (mostly). Not to mention most Norman knights were off fighting in the first three crusades.
I love this idea! And the A-S DO have extra money to throw around. Excellent! I'll do it!
Brilliant! Good thing I can still change it! Can't believe I never thought of it! That will be Henry I. (His father Theobald II will be dead by this time).
True. Didn't think of that. Either way, it's irrelevant once I remarry Eleanor to Henry I (of Champagne)...
After rewriting some marriages D) This is the situation in France, 1153 (after Eleanor marries Henry I [of Champagne])
Britanny falls into the Aquitanian sphere because Conan IV Duke of Britanny, having no reason to marry Margaret of Scotland as in OTL, marries Marie, the daughter of Eleanor.
D) This is the situation in France, 1153 (after Eleanor marries Henry I [of Champagne]) Britanny falls into the Aquitanian sphere because Conan IV Duke of Britanny, having no reason to marry Margaret of Scotland as in OTL, marries Marie, the daughter of Eleanor.
And here is the bit of revised history...
1153 AD - Eleanor of Aquitane marries Henry I Count of Champagne. This puts Eleanor in a position just as strong as the King of France.
In this year, Madad King of Scotland is succeeded by Malcolm IV.
1154 AD - Edward III returns to England. He finds that his son has done only a mediocre job of running the country, and that he is currently at odds with Owain Gywnedd, King of Wales.
1155 - 1158 AD - Edward IV launches a counterattack on Owain Gwynedd. Owain Gwynedd loses just about everything, as Edward IV is a brilliant tactician, a veteran of the Second Crusade. In 1158 Owain has little choice but to divide up his kingdom with various Welsh noblemen (friends-of-convenience to England), and to cede Gwent, Morcannwg, and Brycheiniog to the Kingdom of England, in Edward IV’s attempt to establish permanent English presence in Wales proper.
1163 AD - Conan IV Duke of Brittany marries Marie, daughter of Eleanor. Brittany, while not a possession of Henry I, falls into his sphere of influence. Conan IV is seven years older than she, however Conan is desperate, for if he dies without an heir (or heiress, for that matter) then his land will either be fought for by his bastard half-brother, or will be turned into a royal domain.
1165 AD - Conan IV and Marie give birth to Alan V.
1166 AD - Death of Edward IV. Accession of Harold III as King of England.
1153 AD - Eleanor of Aquitane marries Henry I Count of Champagne. This puts Eleanor in a position just as strong as the King of France.
In this year, Madad King of Scotland is succeeded by Malcolm IV.
1154 AD - Edward III returns to England. He finds that his son has done only a mediocre job of running the country, and that he is currently at odds with Owain Gywnedd, King of Wales.
1155 - 1158 AD - Edward IV launches a counterattack on Owain Gwynedd. Owain Gwynedd loses just about everything, as Edward IV is a brilliant tactician, a veteran of the Second Crusade. In 1158 Owain has little choice but to divide up his kingdom with various Welsh noblemen (friends-of-convenience to England), and to cede Gwent, Morcannwg, and Brycheiniog to the Kingdom of England, in Edward IV’s attempt to establish permanent English presence in Wales proper.
1163 AD - Conan IV Duke of Brittany marries Marie, daughter of Eleanor. Brittany, while not a possession of Henry I, falls into his sphere of influence. Conan IV is seven years older than she, however Conan is desperate, for if he dies without an heir (or heiress, for that matter) then his land will either be fought for by his bastard half-brother, or will be turned into a royal domain.
1165 AD - Conan IV and Marie give birth to Alan V.
1166 AD - Death of Edward IV. Accession of Harold III as King of England.