These Hills Sing of Saxon Kings - Or, The Planning Thread for My Other Next TL

@Mikey

Patience... ;)

@Johnnyreb

I like your assesment, along with Thande's. The church's relationship with England would go through a rocky spot, but nothing comparable to the relationship with the HRE and the Investiture Controversy. At the earliest, the Pope reconciles Harold II almost immediately after his victory at Hastings. At the latest, Harold II is reconciled with the ascension of Pope Gregory VII.

@Thande

No Harrying of the North... So what long term effects might that have? Say, for the next hundred years or so?
 

Thande

Donor
No Harrying of the North... So what long term effects might that have? Say, for the next hundred years or so?
...

I can't claim to provide an accurate answer, but my own personal feelings would be:

* No romantic Northumbrian legend of Durham

* Shared history with Denmark remembered more, thanks to no failure of the Danish alliance in 1069

* As in the South...but more so...the major effect will be the retention of the original English authorities in both the temporal and spiritual sectors, and no old families being disenfranchised.


Another point - not directly relevant to the Harrying, but in general - in OTL (white) slavery was banned in England in 1102 by the Normans - in TTL it might take longer than that. OTOH, there won't be a European-style feudal system.
 

Thande

Donor
So what would be in its place? I thought the Saxons had a feudal system much like the continent? :eek:o

They had something along those lines, but the Normans radically reorganised things. I'm afraid I'm not too conversant in the details but it's something that's hammered home in UK History classes here.
 
I can see Harold centralising power more than earlier A-S kings, particularly after Tostig's betrayal (and implicitly with it those lands for which Tostig was overlord).

Thande

Don't forget Tostig had been removed as earl of Northumbria after [FONT=&quot]alleged [/FONT]tax excesses in 1065 [I think], before Harold became king. Basically he was a landless exile by then.

Steve
 
Alternative England

Some interesting comments here but I'm not sure I agree with many of them. There seems a basic assumption that Harold Godwinson would, had he survived Hastings, have been a "strong" king. I'm not sure of the evidence for this and it conveniently neglects the nature of what happened in the years before 1066.

During the 1040s and 1050s the Godwins effectively usurped the Saxon throne from the descendants of Alfred and Aethelred. Any independent assessment of the rival claims to the English throne in January 1066 would not have had Harold Godwinson's as the best claim. Indeed, it's fair to say William of Normandy had the better claim though the strongest claim was probably that of Edgar (known as the Aetheling).

The problem for Edgar (and William) was that the Godwins had manoeuvred their supporters into the Witan ensuring that even though a child from the marriage of Edward and Harold's sister had not been forthcoming, the Godwins would still control the destiny of the throne. Thus Harold's accession after Edward's death was assured.

The other thing that is often forgotten is how wealthy mid-11th Century England was in the context of western and northern Europe. With a generation of peace, England had prospered via English silver (used to pay off the Danes) and the wool trade with Flanders. Had England been the economic backwater so often portrayed, why would BOTH William and Harald Hardrada choose to invade ? The possibility of acquiring via conquest a wealthy country like England would have been irresistible and so it proved.

For Harold Godwinson, a victorious 1066 would have strengthened his position but not secured it. First, Edgar was still alive and in league with the Scottish king. It's highly likely that Edgar would have tried to take the English throne with Scottish help. Tostig (presumably dead at Stamford Bridge) was linked to the Danish royal house while William's (presumably) widow, Matilda, was linked to Flanders. Far more serious, potentially, than any of these threats was the possibility of revolt from within the extended and numerous Godwin clan itself. Men like the Earls Edwin and Morcar could have allied with Edgar. It was not unknown for the Godwin family to turn on each other and while Harold might have kept order for a while, there are no guarantees this would have lasted especially as he grew older and weaker.

One other thought. Given the mood of the time, I suspect that Harold's view after a victorious Hastings would have been that having failed to take England, William had forfeited Normandy to him. With William dead, could his young sons Robert and William Rufus hold the Duchy together ? The history of Normandy pre-William suggests otherwise. Moreover, could Harold, with the assistance of English money and favour, have undermined and usurped the Normans giving us, if you will, a Conquest in reverse with English forces landing in Normandy and with the assistance of men like Count Eustace of Boulogne or in league with the French king, overthrow Normandy ?

The argument that a Saxon England would somehow abstain from Continental Europe is, in my view, ridiculous. England was economically linked to Europe and, as I've argued, Harold might have seen a rold for England in Continental Europe. I could imagine a later conflict with Flanders for example.

To pick up some points made earlier, we could see Harold in league with the Emperor against the Pope in the mid-1070s.

All of this pre-supposes a vibrant and successful Saxon kingdom under Harold. It's also conceivable that, wracked by internal division, the fall of the Godwins would drag England into a protracted period of anarchy in the 1070s and 1080s. Indeed, we could imagine a smaller England emerging with the Scots and Welsh having gained territory at England's expense.
 

Thande

Donor
Thande

Don't forget Tostig had been removed as earl of Northumbria after [FONT=&quot]alleged [/FONT]tax excesses in 1065 [I think], before Harold became king. Basically he was a landless exile by then.

Steve

Right, didn't realise that.

(I like the 'alleged', it brings to mind an A-S version of Have I Got News For You :D )
 

Thande

Donor
Re feudalism, here's a sentence from the Wiki article on the subject

In the case of their own leadership, however, the Normans utilized the feudal relationship to bind their followers to them. It was the influence of the Norman invaders which strengthened and to some extent institutionalized the feudal relationship in England after the Norman Conquest.

Will try to find a more specific reference.

EDIT:

Even before the Normans arrived the Anglo-Saxons had one of the most sophisticated governmental systems in Western Europe. All of England had been divided into administrative units called shires of roughly uniform size and shape, and were run by an official known as a "shire reeve" or "sheriff". The shires tended to be somewhat autonomous and lacked coordinated control. Anglo-Saxons made heavy use of written documentation which was unusual for kings in Western Europe at the time and made for more efficient governance than word of mouth.

The Anglo-Saxons also established permanent physical locations of government. Most medieval governments were always on the move, holding court wherever the weather and food or other matters were best at the moment. This practice limited the potential size and sophistication of a government body to whatever could be packed on a horse and cart, including the treasury and library. The Anglo-Saxons established a permanent treasury at Winchester, from which a permanent government bureaucracy and document archive had begun to grow.

This sophisticated medieval form of government was handed over to the Normans and grew even stronger. The Normans centralised the autonomous shire system. The Domesday Book exemplifies the practical codification which enabled Norman assimilation of conquered territories through central control of a census. It was the first kingdom-wide census taken in Europe since the time of the Romans, and enabled more efficient taxation of the Norman's new realm.

Systems of accounting grew in sophistication. A government accounting office called the exchequer was established by Henry I; from 1150 onward this was located in Westminster.

As I've said above, I think the general trend would be towards centralisation, but without the Normans, it would be slower.
 

Thande

Donor
Some interesting comments here but I'm not sure I agree with many of them. There seems a basic assumption that Harold Godwinson would, had he survived Hastings, have been a "strong" king. I'm not sure of the evidence for this and it conveniently neglects the nature of what happened in the years before 1066.

During the 1040s and 1050s the Godwins effectively usurped the Saxon throne from the descendants of Alfred and Aethelred. Any independent assessment of the rival claims to the English throne in January 1066 would not have had Harold Godwinson's as the best claim. Indeed, it's fair to say William of Normandy had the better claim though the strongest claim was probably that of Edgar (known as the Aetheling).

The problem for Edgar (and William) was that the Godwins had manoeuvred their supporters into the Witan ensuring that even though a child from the marriage of Edward and Harold's sister had not been forthcoming, the Godwins would still control the destiny of the throne. Thus Harold's accession after Edward's death was assured.

The other thing that is often forgotten is how wealthy mid-11th Century England was in the context of western and northern Europe. With a generation of peace, England had prospered via English silver (used to pay off the Danes) and the wool trade with Flanders. Had England been the economic backwater so often portrayed, why would BOTH William and Harald Hardrada choose to invade ? The possibility of acquiring via conquest a wealthy country like England would have been irresistible and so it proved.

For Harold Godwinson, a victorious 1066 would have strengthened his position but not secured it. First, Edgar was still alive and in league with the Scottish king. It's highly likely that Edgar would have tried to take the English throne with Scottish help. Tostig (presumably dead at Stamford Bridge) was linked to the Danish royal house while William's (presumably) widow, Matilda, was linked to Flanders. Far more serious, potentially, than any of these threats was the possibility of revolt from within the extended and numerous Godwin clan itself. Men like the Earls Edwin and Morcar could have allied with Edgar. It was not unknown for the Godwin family to turn on each other and while Harold might have kept order for a while, there are no guarantees this would have lasted especially as he grew older and weaker.

One other thought. Given the mood of the time, I suspect that Harold's view after a victorious Hastings would have been that having failed to take England, William had forfeited Normandy to him. With William dead, could his young sons Robert and William Rufus hold the Duchy together ? The history of Normandy pre-William suggests otherwise. Moreover, could Harold, with the assistance of English money and favour, have undermined and usurped the Normans giving us, if you will, a Conquest in reverse with English forces landing in Normandy and with the assistance of men like Count Eustace of Boulogne or in league with the French king, overthrow Normandy ?

The argument that a Saxon England would somehow abstain from Continental Europe is, in my view, ridiculous. England was economically linked to Europe and, as I've argued, Harold might have seen a rold for England in Continental Europe. I could imagine a later conflict with Flanders for example.

To pick up some points made earlier, we could see Harold in league with the Emperor against the Pope in the mid-1070s.

All of this pre-supposes a vibrant and successful Saxon kingdom under Harold. It's also conceivable that, wracked by internal division, the fall of the Godwins would drag England into a protracted period of anarchy in the 1070s and 1080s. Indeed, we could imagine a smaller England emerging with the Scots and Welsh having gained territory at England's expense.

Some interesting points there.

I like some of the ideas you raised, because they go against your stereotypical A-S timeline: Harold losing power anyway a few years down the line to Edgar the Etheling, perhaps, and England engaging more with the continent (I love the idea of an English Conquest of Normandy, though it might end up being too directly analogous).
 
Some interesting points there.

I like some of the ideas you raised, because they go against your stereotypical A-S timeline: Harold losing power anyway a few years down the line to Edgar the Etheling, perhaps, and England engaging more with the continent (I love the idea of an English Conquest of Normandy, though it might end up being too directly analogous).

I think the Scottish factor could be interesting also.
 

Thande

Donor
More about the Harrying of the North

The Wiki article is quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

Particularly this:
The north at the time was a land of many free farmers and Scandinavians, and the Harrying suppressed their independent way of life. The death toll is believed to be 150,000, with substantial social, cultural, and economic damage. Due to the scorched earth policy, much of the land was laid waste and depopulated, a fact to which Domesday Book, written almost two decades later, readily attests.

NB when the population of the country as a whole was around 1,100,000, i.e. more than a tenth of the entire population of England, and rather more than a fifth of the population of the North.

Note Scandinavian connection as mentioned above.

~

Relations between A-S England and Scotland were pretty cordial during the preceding century. After the Scottish dynastic struggles and Malcolm III's accession, though:
However, despite having a royal Anglo-Saxon wife, Máel Coluim spent much of his reign conducting slave raids against the English, adding to the woes of that people in the aftermath of the Norman Conquest of England and the Harrying of the North. Marianus Scotus tells us that "the Gaels and French devastated the English; and [the English] were dispersed and died of hunger; and were compelled to eat human flesh".[21]

Of course, one could question whether Malcolm would do this if England wasn't already vulnerable from the Conquest and the Harrying.
 
@stodge

You make some excellent points, although I seem to find some evidence that he would have made a "good" king, as you put it. Actually, it's not all that much, but it seems as though Harold was in the process of reforming the currency, to help with the already-burgeoning wool trade. So if we go on that, and the fact that he was an excellent commander, an AltHistorian could make the argument for a competent Harold Godwinson.

But upon the death of Harold, things would most likely get confused indeed. The election by the witan of Harold left the laws of succession in a mess, and one immediately sees the politics of the next succession get very messy. His son Godwin (by Edith, his actual wife) would be very young by the time Harold dies. But he has a son named Edwin by his mistress Edith. Then you have Morcar, that powerful earl replacing Tolstig, Harold's brother, probably claiming the throne as well.

Or the witan could just divvy up England into Earldoms again, although I see this as unlikely.

A victorious Harold Godwinson to me would bring an era of prosperity, but like a calm before a great storm. Civil war looms on the horizon. Either way, the Saxons retain England.

As for continental politics, they'll get involved most certainly, but first they need to get their internal affairs in order (succession, for one). So the HYW or some equivalent is averted, but perhaps something on a smaller scale. I can see future English kings getting involved in the Low Countries, or maybe Denmark/Northern Germany.

@Thande

Very interesting. So it was really quite autonomous... Hmm.... But yeah, one does envision a sort of trend toward centralization...
 
Actually Harold did attack into Wales, to the point that he killed the King of Wales and married his wife, Ealdgyth. (An odd fact is that Harold was already married, to a different woman also named Ealdgyth Swanholz (swan neck).

It is said that after his death at Hasting only Ealdgyth Swanneck was able to identify him by certain marks known only to her.

Norman

As Imjin said this was basically an attack to depose the Welsh king, who had been raiding English lands for several years. Harold is supposed to have masterminded the attack and directed the southern forces while the northern ones were led by his brother Tostig, still earl of Northumbria then. From what I have read they basically burnt as much as they could until the Welsh gave them what they wanted, i.e. the head of their former king.

I have read that Harold married Ealdgyth to demonstrate a desire for better relations with Wales and also to break a long standing tradition forbidding intermarriage between English and Welsh. On the other hand she was the daughter of the previous earl of Mercia, who had been married to the Welsh king to win his friendship in the political manoeuvring that went on. So the former could be largely propaganda. Interestingly I think she was pregnant at the time of Hastings and later have birth to a son named Harold. [Which may have been counter-productive to English resistance as it increased the number of potential claimants to the throne].

Ealdgyth Swanholz was a long time partner, often described as a mistress but I have also read it as a Danish marriage - presumably because that was a custom brought over by the Danes or popular with them. In this I think it was some fixed term marriage that could be regularly renewed. It was Harold's sons by this marriage that were at least the titular leaders of the Godwin clan and resistance in the SW after the death of Harold and his brothers at Hastings.

On the issue of relations with the other British kingdoms. I think relations with the Irish were pretty good. When the Godwin’s were briefly forced into exile in ~1052 they took refuge in Ireland as did Harold's sons when driven from Wessex. They also hired mercenaries from there.

With both Wales and even more so Scotland relations were less friendly due to frequent attacks and raids. Have heard it suggested that because of its greater poverty Scotland was actually dependent on slaves and other wealth captured from northern England during times of English weakness for its own development. Presuming a continued English state there would probably have been intermittent warfare with England gradually converting occasional overlordship into something more permanent and/or regaining lost northern lands like Lothian. The border with Scotland might be the Clyde-Forth line rather than further south. On the other hand England generally lacked the expansionist tastes of the Normans, although that might have changed over time.

Steve
 

Thande

Donor
With both Wales and even more so Scotland relations were less friendly due to frequent attacks and raids. Have heard it suggested that because of its greater poverty Scotland was actually dependent on slaves and other wealth captured from northern England during times of English weakness for its own development. Presuming a continued English state there would probably have been intermittent warfare with England gradually converting occasional overlordship into something more permanent and/or regaining lost northern lands like Lothian. The border with Scotland might be the Clyde-Forth line rather than further south. On the other hand England generally lacked the expansionist tastes of the Normans, although that might have changed over time.

Steve
Possibly Scotland would just be slowly reduced to a rump and then become a dependent vassal, as the greater English population eventually began to tell. Same with Wales. I can't see the A-S, without the Norman influence, going for an 'English empire in Britain' as it's sometimes phrased.
 
@Thande

I'm not sure what to make of all those Scandinavians running around in Northumbria. What were you thinking?

@All

I think the troubles with Scotland would have only escalated, and England would support various pretenders in dynastic struggles, and perhaps even conquer it. King Harold the Conqueror?
 

Thande

Donor
@Thande

I'm not sure what to make of all those Scandinavians running around in Northumbria. What were you thinking?
Well, the obvious one is to eventually reform the Empire of Canute, only with England at its head. In any case, England will continue to feel more affinity for Scandinavia and northern Europe, though of course it won't be totally aloof from continental Europe.
 
Right, didn't realise that.

(I like the 'alleged', it brings to mind an A-S version of Have I Got News For You :D )

Thande

From what I read there was a rebellion against his earlship that had widespread support. He was actually a favourite of Edward who wanted to support him by force but was argued out of it by Harold who didn't want civil war over the issue. [For which Tostig never forgave his brother, hence the later invasion with Harald]. However it is unclear where it was that Tostig was trying to impose southern levels of taxation on a poorer northern England, or simply higher levels than some of the ruling elements in the region liked. Also whether it was a true widespread rebellion or whether he had upset certain vested interests. [Its often difficult getting a clear picture of events occurring today when opinions differ, let alone nearly a millennium ago, hence my alleged.]

Steve
 
@Thande

I'm not sure what to make of all those Scandinavians running around in Northumbria. What were you thinking?

@All

I think the troubles with Scotland would have only escalated, and England would support various pretenders in dynastic struggles, and perhaps even conquer it. King Harold the Conqueror?

Well, Harold's descendants might end up being the ones to do some of the conquering if it happens. That said, the dynastic marriages here could get interesting.
 
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