Theocratic States of America

Greetings and Salutations and a Merry Festivus to everyone!

As this is my first post here, I do hope I have selected the correct venue.

I am working on a novel (potentially a series of novels), involving a world where the Moral Majority and the Christian Right in general succeeded in re-vamping our Government and Constitution in their image ca. 1980 or so.

While much of the story happens in the near future, the events that followed that deviation in our history. Here is what I see has happening:

1) Once in charge, traditional denominations (Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans) are deemed too European and or socialist, and ostracized possibly criminalized.

2) The various theocratic constituents turn on themselves, over arguments of text, interpretations, inerrancy, ritual, etc further dividing our nation into territorial and militant theocracies.

3) The lack of education beyond a biblical based one, leads our industry, military, and economy into a rapid tailspin. Coupled with a militant religioius furvor and a willingness to use WMD against religious threats creates a dark national security picture.

4) Pockets of non-theocratic regions would exist in places like pragmatic new england and much of the left coast.

5) Punishments against "sins" especially social sins are swift and brutal

What other characteristics might I consider tossing in the path of my characters? I have also been making a list of historical events and potential historic events that could shape such a world. Any suggestions there?

Andrew
 
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"I am working on a novel (potentially a series of novels), involving a world where the Moral Majority and the Christian Right in general succeeded in re-vamping our Government and Constitution in their image ca. 1980 or so."

I can't see how they could become influential enough to truly change the US constitution. I could definitely see them changing STATE constitutions, as they did in my home state of North Carolina earlier this year.

"1) Once in charge, traditional denominations (Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans) are deemed too European and or socialist, and ostracized possibly criminalized."

Unlikely. In order for the Moral Majority to succeed, they would probably have to ally themselves with the more conservative elements of the Catholic Church in America.

"2) The various theocratic constituents turn on themselves, over arguments of text, interpretations, inerrancy, ritual, etc further dividing our nation into territorial and militant theocracies."

Plausible. Religious sectarianism is certainly not unheard of at all.

"3) The lack of education beyond a biblical based one, leads our industry, military, and economy into a rapid tailspin. Coupled with a militant religioius furvor and a willingness to use WMD against religious threats creates a dark national security picture."

I don't think such a thing would happen until the youth who were indoctrinated came of age.

"4) Pockets of non-theocratic regions would exist in places like pragmatic new england and much of the left coast."

Probably Hawaii as well (Since they are are solidly Democratic).

"5) Punishments against "sins" especially social sins are swift and brutal"

I could see this religious "justice" being carried out by paramilitary groups instead of the police.

Overall, if you wanted a scenario like this, you would probably have to have an earlier POD.
 
Unlikely. In order for the Moral Majority to succeed, they would probably have to ally themselves with the more conservative elements of the Catholic Church in America.

This, this, a thousand times this. Ever wonder how the word "Judeo-Christian" got coined? Or why Billy Graham suddenly stopped calling Mormonism a cult in mid-October of 2012, after a cranberry juice summit with Mitt Romney?

Robert A. Heinlein knew this back in the 1950s: if you're going to have a religious takeover of the U.S., you're going to need an ecumenical organization that becomes subverted from within. Afterwards, you can have a Reign of Terror and purge the heretics -- but my guess is that Catholics and Lutherans are going to be some of the last ones with their heads on the chopping block.

Overall, if you wanted a scenario like this, you would probably have to have an earlier POD.

Agreed. What we today call the "Religious Right" started organizing as a right-wing political force in the 1960s in the wake of a) Engel v. Vitale and b) school busing, their first instincts were to withdraw from the political system (hence, the rise of homeschooling) rather than try to take it over.

Jerry Falwell didn't found the Moral Majority until 1979, and Pat Robertson's 1988 Presidential run was pretty much a complete joke, with his evangelical Christianity viewed as a massive liability. Heck, Gary Bauer's 2000 campaign went nowhere, too.

A good place to start would be to have Nixon lose in 1968 so that Earl Warren is able to engineer what is effectively a permanent majority for the Warren Court (headed, I suppose, by Abe Fortas). Replace Nixon's nominees -- the centrist Lewis Powell, and conservatives Warren Burger and William Rehnquist -- with three far-left Brennan acolytes, and you could have a hyper-activist Supreme Court that is way out in front of the American public on social issues. You'd not only have OTL's Roe v. Wade, but five justices for prohibiting capital punishment (reversing OTL's Gregg v. Georgia); a 7-2 majority prohibiting states from criminalizing sodomy (reversing OTL's Bowers v. Hardwick), and probably more expansive mandates in various school busing and affirmative action cases.

Against that backdrop, I could see a grass-roots social conservatism movement as plausible in the 1980s. It would still take a while to take hold, though.
 
One more bit:

4) Pockets of non-theocratic regions would exist in places like pragmatic new england and much of the left coast.

Don't make the mistake of confusing social liberalism with irreligiousity! Massachusetts, for example, had religiously-motivated blue laws until 2004 (!) -- which put it in the same category as just four other deep-red states (Georgia, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Mississippi). In Massachusetts, 82% of residents are "fairly certain" or "absolutely certain" that there is a God (national average: 88%). Similarly, 75% of Massachusetts residents say that belief in God is either "somewhat important" or "very important" against the national average of 82%.
 
Greetings and Salutations and a Merry Festivus to everyone!

As this is my first post here, I do hope I have selected the correct venue.

I am working on a novel (potentially a series of novels), involving a world where the Moral Majority and the Christian Right in general succeeded in re-vamping our Government and Constitution in their image ca. 1980 or so.

While much of the story happens in the near future, the events that followed that deviation in our history. Here is what I see has happening:

1) Once in charge, traditional denominations (Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans) are deemed too European and or socialist, and ostracized possibly criminalized.

2) The various theocratic constituents turn on themselves, over arguments of text, interpretations, inerrancy, ritual, etc further dividing our nation into territorial and militant theocracies.

3) The lack of education beyond a biblical based one, leads our industry, military, and economy into a rapid tailspin. Coupled with a militant religioius furvor and a willingness to use WMD against religious threats creates a dark national security picture.

4) Pockets of non-theocratic regions would exist in places like pragmatic new england and much of the left coast.

5) Punishments against "sins" especially social sins are swift and brutal

What other characteristics might I consider tossing in the path of my characters? I have also been making a list of historical events and potential historic events that could shape such a world. Any suggestions there?

Andrew

Heh, kinda sounds like a DoD *American slaveowning Vitalist's or TL-191 Freedomite's wet dream come true.....or at least part of it anyhow. :p

In all seriousness, though, I bid you a warm welcome to the AH.com forums, Andrew. (TBH, the POD does seem a tad borderling ASBish, 1980 wouldn't work very well for anything terribly plausible.....but if plausibility isn't a problem, then that's alright.) :)

One question I have is, just how dark is this TL going to get? And what of Mexico & Canada? How would they fare? And how would the Soviets react? :eek:
 
"I am working on a novel (potentially a series of novels), involving a world where the Moral Majority and the Christian Right in general succeeded in re-vamping our Government and Constitution in their image ca. 1980 or so."

I can't see how they could become influential enough to truly change the US constitution. I could definitely see them changing STATE constitutions, as they did in my home state of North Carolina earlier this year.

You have a point. But I also seem changes starting sublely, years earlier as the movement gains momentum. Which goes to POD, and I will get into that further down the post. Causes like re-establishing prohibition, heathcare decisions (abortions and reproductive rules are a biggie), tax laws and sorts I see them changing via addition and repealing of amendments.

"1) Once in charge, traditional denominations (Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans) are deemed too European and or socialist, and ostracized possibly criminalized."

Unlikely. In order for the Moral Majority to succeed, they would probably have to ally themselves with the more conservative elements of the Catholic Church in America.

True. But the more conservative elements are a minority in the more traditional denominations. The expectation, from my experience with being within a more traditional protestant in a growing community of fundamentalist evangelicals is one of conversion. Those that don't will be cast aside.

"2) The various theocratic constituents turn on themselves, over arguments of text, interpretations, inerrancy, ritual, etc further dividing our nation into territorial and militant theocracies."

Plausible. Religious sectarianism is certainly not unheard of at all.

I don't think this is too much of a stretch. It is already occurring among different politically active evangelical groups.

"3) The lack of education beyond a biblical based one, leads our industry, military, and economy into a rapid tailspin. Coupled with a militant religious fervor and a willingness to use WMD against religious threats creates a dark national security picture."

I don't think such a thing would happen until the youth who were indoctrinated came of age.

This will depend mostly on the state of things at the POD, and defining minor PODs and when the full blown deviation from the known occurs. On some level we have already seen this in progress. With a growing religious homeschooling system and fundamentalist driven parochial schools there is already noticeable drop in mathematical and scientific literate students and young adults entering the workforce. Under this scenario I can't see it improving.

"4) Pockets of non-theocratic regions would exist in places like pragmatic new england and much of the left coast."

Probably Hawaii as well (Since they are are solidly Democratic).

Good point. They may still be religious church goin' folk, but not a theocratic ruling body. Being liberal and progressive does not necessarily mean a irreligious mentality.

"5) Punishments against "sins" especially social sins are swift and brutal"

I could see this religious "justice" being carried out by paramilitary groups instead of the police.

Exactly. For all the cries against Sharia Law by Christian Right, they desire much the same style of Abrahamic Law themselves.

Overall, if you wanted a scenario like this, you would probably have to have an earlier POD.

The POD will be tough to determine. The Christian Right movement has its roots deep in the anti-communist scare/Cold War of the 1940s and 1950s. The addition of "under God" to the pledge in 1954, and "in God we Trust" to our currency, starting in 1956 (IIRC) and being on all currency by 1966 (up to that point it was only on a 2 cent coin as a commemorative to civil war casualties), and gaining momentum through the 1960s and 1970s, to becoming a full blown political force by 1979. And there may be more subtle shifts after WWI, as there was a growing moment of Protestantism in the US starting around 1914, which was moving away from the European religious traditions.

The difficult part in this timeline would be knowing were the big break was, versus the small shifts that would be basically imperceptible without digging really deep into obscure historical events. But yet being very crucial in decisions made and situations by the late 70s and early 80s.

Andrew
 
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Heh, kinda sounds like a DoD *American slaveowning Vitalist's or TL-191 Freedomite's wet dream come true.....or at least part of it anyhow. :p

In all seriousness, though, I bid you a warm welcome to the AH.com forums, Andrew. (TBH, the POD does seem a tad borderling ASBish, 1980 wouldn't work very well for anything terribly plausible.....but if plausibility isn't a problem, then that's alright.) :)

One question I have is, just how dark is this TL going to get? And what of Mexico & Canada? How would they fare? And how would the Soviets react? :eek:


Forgive my ignorance. What does ASB stand for? As far as Canada and Mexico, I am not sure. I could see traditional Catholics fleeing south, and Protestants fleeing north. I also could see the Soviets gaining strength and not collapsing in 1989. Now it isn't the Capitalist threat, but a ideological one with a tough 'US" stance vs. the Godless Commies.

Andrew
 
Forgive my ignorance. What does ASB stand for? As far as Canada and Mexico, I am not sure. I could see traditional Catholics fleeing south, and Protestants fleeing north. I also could see the Soviets gaining strength and not collapsing in 1989. Now it isn't the Capitalist threat, but a ideological one with a tough 'US" stance vs. the Godless Commies.

Andrew

Alien Space Bats, my friend. It comes from a book written by S.M. Stirling....."Island in the Sea of Time", I believe it was? (Basically, it means something that is pretty much implausible, though exactly what IS implausible can vary to a degree; for example, something that is borderline ASBish, says that something may not necessarily be implausible, but does straddle the line.) ;):cool:
 
ASB. For one, a large part of the Religious Right in the broad sense of the term are conservative (in again a broad sense) Catholics. And theocracy outside the Papacy itself for Catholics are pretty much dead on arrival.
 
ASB. For one, a large part of the Religious Right in the broad sense of the term are conservative (in again a broad sense) Catholics. And theocracy outside the Papacy itself for Catholics are pretty much dead on arrival.


I your opinion.

In realize this is my first foray here, but it is a disappointment. I guess expected a more serious discussion, not relatively simple dismissal.

I apologize for the wasting everybody's time including my own.
 
Well don't get completely discouraged. Just because the premise is asb doesn't mean it would make a bad book, just bad alternate history. Harry Potter is about wizards and it's excellent. :)
 
Well don't get completely discouraged. Just because the premise is asb doesn't mean it would make a bad book, just bad alternate history. Harry Potter is about wizards and it's excellent. :)

Thing is, that without a certain amount of "truth" the lie becomes hard to sustain with readers. Especially mature and experienced readers. As far as Harry Potter goes, we could go into a rather long winded debate over the series' literary merits.

That said, let us revisit the original topic and lay it open for serious discussion. Ignoring the initial timeline, but instead focus on the desired outcome. Let us consider that due to a unfortunate series of events, there comes to pass by 1980, a fully formed theocratic government in the US. This new "Godly" Union comes at a great cost, and not in the least a separation of the country into regions not keen on the theocratic rule, and the rest of the country. In the 20+ years since, the newly formed Theocratic States of America (TSA) is in upheaval. Between a civil war against non-faithful territories and its own sectarian divisions as various fundamentalist Christian groups jockey for superiority.

The questions that need answering, at least at first, are:

1) What and ultimately when, was the big POD, that set the US on that course?

2) What effect did that POD have on the socio-economic development of the US, as compared to what really happened?

3) What effect did that POD have on the socio-economic development of the rest of the world?

4) How does the POD effect technical development? (Moon Landing?, Computers? The industrial military complex?)

5) Would such a long drawn out conflict become of a war of attrition?

There are definitely other questions, but from a story perspective, this is good start.

Thoughts?

Andrew
 
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