The WWII in "Central Powers won WWI" World

[Bulls Run]

Nothing as bad as Hitler I think.

Perhaps not. It's just that a lot of threads here deal with a German victory avoiding the whole Hitler/Nazi WW2 thing. It might be interesting to have a thread here that has Germany win AND Hitler and Nazis taking over.

Consider this. Because of economic turmoil after the war ends and seeming lenient terms offered England along with Germany maybe not having the economic power after the war to make its harsh peace terms stick. Hitler comes to power promising a resurgence in German economic might and prestige. Hitler as Chancellor of Germany and with the High Seas Fleet. Maybe the Kaiser suffers an untimely death. Hmm.

 

[Mikestone8]

I think it should be pointed out that we're missing a key factor in WWII in OTL: The mind-boggling stupidity of the victorious Allied Powers in allowing the most powerful country in Europe to cast off all the consequences of defeat, defy the Treaty of Versailles and re-arm.

Why do I bring this up? Because I can't imagine a victorious Imperial Germany having nearly the same poor judgment to draw up a "winner's peace" and then through guilt and a spirit of quasi-pacifism allow the defeated Allied Powers to re-arm.


Basically what I'm saying is that I don't think the scenario can just be reversed for Germany to play the role of the weak Western Democracies in the 1930s. Imperial Germany would have made sure the Allies were defeated, stripped of significant chunks of territories, disarmed and that they stayed that way for the foreseeable future.

Agreed. Indeed a cynic might argue that this is the best argument for a CP victory.

A peace imposed by them would not have been particuarly just or magnanimous, any more than OTL's 1919 settlement. But, such as it was, at least it would have been enforced, so that a second war becomes, if not impossible, then at least highly unlikely.

 

[Mikestone8]

Perhaps not. It's just that a lot of threads here deal with a German victory avoiding the whole Hitler/Nazi WW2 thing. It might be interesting to have a thread here that has Germany win AND Hitler and Nazis taking over.

Consider this. Because of economic turmoil after the war ends and seeming lenient terms offered England along with Germany maybe not having the economic power after the war to make its harsh peace terms stick. Hitler comes to power promising a resurgence in German economic might and prestige. Hitler as Chancellor of Germany and with the High Seas Fleet. Maybe the Kaiser suffers an untimely death. Hmm.

Interesting but unlikely.

First off, bodies like the Storm Troopers or the SS would never have been permitted. The German Army would not tolerate competitor organisations of that kind. These got their chance only because the ToV had shrunk the Army down to dwarf size.

Second, most of Hitler's financial support came from wealthy business people and the like, who were fearful of Communism. But a Germany with an army of prewar size would have ample force to suppress a Communist rising - and even in OTL's Weimar, the Communists were nowhere near strong enough to get in by legal means.

Thirdly, the courts would have been nowhere near as soft on him as they were in OTL's 1920s, had he been trying to subvert a Hohenzollern monarchy. First sign of trouble and he'd be deported back to Austria

A right wing dictatorship is perfectly possible, but it would have been run by respectable people, who would have had little need, and even less inclination, to kowtow to an ex-corporal who should properly have been made to use the tradesman's entrance.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Hitler? A little Catholic Austrian Corpral without an ounce of Junker blood in his vein, and probably is some kind of Socialist? He'd have no chance in a blue moon to come anywhere near a position of power in the Reich.

 

[clendor]

I have another idea of WWII. How about this:



Communist states(USSR, France, Italy)+Britain vs Monarchist and pro-German (Protectorate of bohemia, Poland, Lithuania, UBD,Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Ottoman Empire).

The WWI Pod is a white, anti-Allied, peace in 1919. This followed by the Collapse of Austro-Hungary by a big civil war between the Ethnic populations.
What do you think?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

I have another idea of WWII. How about this:
View attachment 119970


Communist states(USSR, France, Italy)+Britain vs Monarchist and pro-German (Protectorate of bohemia, Poland, Lithuania, UBD,Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Ottoman Empire).

The WWI Pod is a white, anti-Allied, peace in 1919. This followed by the Collapse of Austro-Hungary by a big civil war between the Ethnic populations.
What do you think?

Romania is too big, Persia stretches too far north, but you know this, since I mentioned it in the earlier thread.

 

[clendor]

So Hungary gets a little bit more of Romania. I'll fix it, but that doesn't matter in this contecst (How to spell it? English is not my native language), because both are under Pro-German rule. With no US intervention (they don't want to support the monarchists, nor the Communists), who would take? I bet the Communists.

 

[Mikestone8]

How do you get a "white" peace in 1919? One side or the other will have collapsed by then, or in 1919 at latest. Whichever party "collapses last" will impose a dictated peace.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

How do you get a "white" peace in 1919? One side or the other will have collapsed by then, or in 1919 at latest. Whichever party "collapses last" will impose a dictated peace.

War still going in 1919 means both France and Germany are on life support, both could well collapse into Socialist revolutions (Communist if USSR is around). So we get a Communist Europe.

 

[Mikestone8]

War still going in 1919 means both France and Germany are on life support, both could well collapse into Socialist revolutions (Communist if USSR is around). So we get a Communist Europe.

Only if both somehow manage to collapse at once. Otherwise, whoever "collapses last" gets to avert revolution by looting the other.

 

[teg]

Has anyone considered that while Hitler coming to power in Germany is unlikely, it is possible he could become Fuhrer of a revanchist Austro-Hungary. Consider this scenario;

i) The Austro-Hungarian Empire was very corrupt, very incompetent and very inefficent pre-World War I and a victory in the conflict would make the problem worse because of complacency (think France in the 1920s/30s.

ii) This causes the middle classes and many of the ethnic groups began to hate the Dual Monarchy even more. Instability grows, especially after the empire actually grew after the end of the war (annexation of parts of Poland and maybe Serbia).

iii) Then Hitler turns up, turning their rage against the Jews, Italians, north Germans (Prussians, Hannoverians, Saxons etc...), who are betraying the Austro-Hungarian empire. The Slavs (with the exception of the Czechs and Slovaks), might also be a target for Hitler's rants in this TL.

iv) How Hitler could come to power is open to interpretation; the Emperor might be forced to appoint him chancellor if and when the Nazis gain a significant portion of parliment or alternatively, there might be a revolution (March on Vienna?) which topples the Imperial government.

v) How would World War II pan out in this TL? A Nazi Austro-Hungary would probably ally with France (which would almost certainly undergo a shift to left or right and becoming revanchist, France in OTL became defeatist because of how quickly Germany recovered, not because of the actual fighting in the war) against Germany. They might also be joined by Britain. In that case, the situation for the Germans would look very bleak and they would probably only be saved by a Russian intervention, which I suspect would be unlikely (Russia would either be too weak or use the opportunity to gain territory at Germany's satellites expense).

Here is what I think a probable WW2 in this TL:

AH/France/Britain/Spain vs Germany/Italy/Bulgaria/Romania


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I understand that this is probably completely ASB, but it's fun to speculate.

 

[Mikestone8]

v) How would World War II pan out in this TL? A Nazi Austro-Hungary would probably ally with France (which would almost certainly undergo a shift to left or right and becoming revanchist, France in OTL became defeatist because of how quickly Germany recovered, not because of the actual fighting in the war) against Germany. They might also be joined by Britain. In that case, the situation for the Germans would look very bleak and they would probably only be saved by a Russian intervention, which I suspect would be unlikely (Russia would either be too weak or use the opportunity to gain territory at Germany's satellites expense).

----

I understand that this is probably completely ASB, but it's fun to speculate.

Agree on the last point.

Germany would be more than capable of stomping France and AH combined, long before Britain could intervene effectively.

 

[stevep]

clendor

Sounds like an interesting idea and might be possible, if say the Bolsheviks had been more rational and made peace earlier, resulting in markedly less German gains. The two problems I can see however:

a) A strained Germany might accept a communist Russia, screened as it is by pro-German protectorates but I can't see them, presumably a few years later, allowing France to also fall under communist rule. Would need something to stop an intervention to keep the communists out, which would probably be supported by most neutrals and a lot of the French population.

b) If communism gained power in both France and Russia they might be allies against German dominated Europe. However if Britain had pretty much made it's peace with Germany, unless it had seen pretty drastic changes itself or Germany was getting very unpleasant, I can't see it supporting the communists against Germany. Especially given the loathing that communism generated and when that threat is not only in distant, backward Russia but also just across the channel in France. Britain may not support Germany but could easily see it staying neutral, possibly only interfering to prevent either threat winning big.

Steve

I have another idea of WWII. How about this:
View attachment 119970


Communist states(USSR, France, Italy)+Britain vs Monarchist and pro-German (Protectorate of bohemia, Poland, Lithuania, UBD,Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Ottoman Empire).

The WWI Pod is a white, anti-Allied, peace in 1919. This followed by the Collapse of Austro-Hungary by a big civil war between the Ethnic populations.
What do you think?

 

[clendor]

Communists vs Monarchists: Who would take?



Note: Ignore the "1935" thing. the war starts a few years after that.

 

[Mikestone8]

Communists vs Monarchists: Who would take?

Monarchists.

France and Italy could not go Communist without having civil wars, and the CP would be certain to intervene. They might just tolerate a Bolshevik governemt in Russia, but France and Italy as well? Not in a million years. All the old hang-ups about "encirclement" would come flooding back.

 

[Meadow]

Bizarre... When I typed this I was writing about BRITAIN... Why did I write Russia? Did I write Russia or has it slipped in froim an ATL?

I wondered why nobody cared about what I said!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

*cough* *gesture towards link in my sig* *cough*

 

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

The United States becomes increasingly expansionist after WW1, eventually a fight start between the USN and the RN, the Central Powers sides with the UK.

 

[clendor]

But if CP is victorious in this war, would Britain and the USA let France and Italy go Monarchist again? Maybe Britrain will join the war becasue the British prefersCommunist France upon Monarchist one?

 

[Xgentis]

But if CP is victorious in this war, would Britain and the USA let France and Italy go Monarchist again? Maybe Britrain will join the war becasue the British prefersCommunist France upon Monarchist one?

That didn't make sense at all, why would the british support a communist France?
And at that time Italy was already a monarchy.

 

[Mikestone8]

But if CP is victorious in this war, would Britain and the USA let France and Italy go Monarchist again? Maybe Britrain will join the war becasue the British prefersCommunist France upon Monarchist one?

Sorry, you've lost me.

If the CPs win, that means either that the US is still neutral, or it has intervened too late and the Germans have prevailed anyway, In either case, it (and equally a defeated Britain) is quite powerless to stop the victorious Germans from stomping any communist revolution in France or Italy. Nor, given the general attitude toward Bolsheviks in 1917/18, is it likely that it would much want to.