The Worst American Civil War Alternate History Cliche

Saphroneth

Banned
It's not exactly glowing, though, whether about the Armstrong specifically or Martin's shell generally:
I thought that molten iron was hot enough that it glowed anyway. :p

Fair point, though I think they might be used in combat in some situations. It wouldn't have any advantage over the 68 pounder ones, though, so it wouldn't really grant any benefit and it'd be better to just use the iron in the 68 pounder.
Though I think they had bolts for the 110 pounder and the 40 pounder, and I'd imagine a Martin shell would have the same mass as a bolt.

Martin's shell for the 600pdr shunt gun. Now that would be a hell of a thing to get hit with...
God yes...

Has anyone ever included the significance of the highlighted in a TL or published work?
I may have, I can't remember - it mostly played in in that my portrayal of the Union managing to produce multiple ironclads with hammered wrought iron plates was very much allowing the Union a lot of leeway. In reality they pretty much produced enough armourplate for one ironclad a year using hammered, plus IIRC there was a bidding war going on in Britain for British arrmourplate.

But yes, the superior plate of the Tregedar works (it was higher quality as well as being better rolled) means that the Virginia was able to have at least comparable protection to the Monitor with only the weight burden of 4" of iron (instead of 11").
 
The primary defence of the Chesapeake in the 1860 period is Fort Monroe, which is quite good by the standard of US forts of the time but certainly not invulnerable - not to anyone with an ironclad, or indeed wooden ships with good rifles.



...that a mortar shell penetrated into the magazine? I'd have thought that would show it was not doing well!
What that means is either that it was damaged badly enough to allow that or that it was vulnerable to that in the undamaged state. My assumption had been the former, but the latter may also be the case. .

Regarding Fort McHenry in 1812
"he garrison commander of Fort McHenry, MAJ George Armistead, a Regular Army officer, had completed the preparation of the fort’s defenses only days before the British landings. Armistead had a 527-man composite unit comprised of soldiers from the 12th, 36th, and 38th U.S. Infantry Regiments, in addition to Regular and militia artillery units. The fort was well protected except for one glaring weakness: the magazine was a simple brick structure with only a shingle roof and vulnerable to a direct hit by enemy fire. One shell actually struck the magazine during the bombardment but failed to explode. Eventually, the 300 barrels of power stored within the magazine were distributed throughout the fort to reduce the chance of a devastating explosion"

So it seems it was a lucky shot against a relatively unfortified target but also it appears that Major Armistead was all over it in terms of reaction.

(source US Army)
https://armyhistory.org/battles-that-saved-america-north-point-and-baltimore-1814/
 
a major cliche is the frequent appearance of military scenarios, particularly intervention scenarios, without any detailed analysis or background of why they occur

just a bad is the cliche that one side will always make the wrong choices and the other side will always make the right choices.

and finally, only in fiction do you have wars and campaigns without the friction of war making the simple difficult, and the difficult a fantasy.

These cliches are not confined to Civil War timelines.
 
That is more accurate by far.... they were increasingly against the wall in spite of having defeated the Russians (and the decision to recommence unrestricted submarine warfare was taken before the Russians collapsed).

Also before the French Army mutinies.

And while they were vaguely aware of Britain's difficultiy re US loans, they could not be certain about its exact impact. After all, even if Britain went broke in, say, October 1917, that would do Germany no good if she had already collapsed in September.

Launching sabotage attacks in the US however would seem to indicate a stunning lack of imagination for the potential consequences, or a blithe disregard for the potential consequences. Neither the mark of a well thought out policy.

Yet on the whole they got away with it. One or two men at the Embassy got given their marching orders, but America was no nearer going to war in Jan 1917 than when the war began. Only when the Germans started drowning American sailors by the dozen did opinion really change. Even exploding munitions works didn't seem to budge it in any major way.
 
Apparently not worried enough to avoid the triggering events of the Zimmerman Telegram (on a line supplied by the US Government), or to avoid attacking US ships, or worried enough to not commit sabotage in the United States that killed American citizens.

Again, those were desperate gambles by a government which saw no way to win the war, not a mark of German contempt for the US. I know it's a cliche of popular American historiography to suppose that those stuffy and myopic Europeans never paid any attention to the rise of the US, but it's pretty much entirely false. Both the Allies and the Central Powers thought that once the US joined in on the Western Front an Allied victory was guaranteed; what do you think the Spring Offensive was about?
 
Again, those were desperate gambles by a government which saw no way to win the war, not a mark of German contempt for the US. I know it's a cliche of popular American historiography to suppose that those stuffy and myopic Europeans never paid any attention to the rise of the US, but it's pretty much entirely false. Both the Allies and the Central Powers thought that once the US joined in on the Western Front an Allied victory was guaranteed; what do you think the Spring Offensive was about?

There may not have been contempt for the US, but there undoubtedly was for President Wilson himself. When it was suggested that the U-boats be told not to torpedo American ships w/o warning, the Kaiser wrote in the margin "Once and for all, an end to negotiations with America. If Wilson wants war, let him make it and let him have it!". He was clearly exasperated by Wilson's endless notes of complaint, and convinced that he was looking for an excuse to enter the war anyway [1]. It's a pretty safe bet that most of those around him felt the same. I sometimes wonder if his attitude would have been different toward a new POTUS who didn't have Wilson's "history".

[1] Ironically, many on the Entente side were equally hostile to him for not being anti-German enough. I read somewhere that British soldiers at the front called a dud shell a "Wilson".
 

Saphroneth

Banned
"he garrison commander of Fort McHenry, MAJ George Armistead, a Regular Army officer, had completed the preparation of the fort’s defenses only days before the British landings. Armistead had a 527-man composite unit comprised of soldiers from the 12th, 36th, and 38th U.S. Infantry Regiments, in addition to Regular and militia artillery units. The fort was well protected except for one glaring weakness: the magazine was a simple brick structure with only a shingle roof and vulnerable to a direct hit by enemy fire. One shell actually struck the magazine during the bombardment but failed to explode. Eventually, the 300 barrels of power stored within the magazine were distributed throughout the fort to reduce the chance of a devastating explosion"
Ah, useful - thank you.

Now, here's the question - what modernization, if any, took place since that? We've already seen that Third System Forts are very vulnerable to heavy rifle fire, and Fort McHenry is second system.

When it was suggested that the U-boats be told not to torpedo American ships w/o warning, the Kaiser wrote in the margin "Once and for all, an end to negotiations with America. If Wilson wants war, let him make it and let him have it!".
Given that that was the mercurial Kaiser, it's a little hard to tell if that was an attitude shared by the rest of the German staff.

But I think the way the Germans kept backing off from USW whenever there was an outcry shows that they didn't want to get the US too involved.
 
There may not have been contempt for the US, but there undoubtedly was for President Wilson himself. When it was suggested that the U-boats be told not to torpedo American ships w/o warning, the Kaiser wrote in the margin "Once and for all, an end to negotiations with America. If Wilson wants war, let him make it and let him have it!". He was clearly exasperated by Wilson's endless notes of complaint, and convinced that he was looking for an excuse to enter the war anyway [1]. It's a pretty safe bet that most of those around him felt the same. I sometimes wonder if his attitude would have been different toward a new POTUS who didn't have Wilson's "history".

[1] Ironically, many on the Entente side were equally hostile to him for not being anti-German enough. I read somewhere that British soldiers at the front called a dud shell a "Wilson".

The last had a lot to do with his "He kept us out of war" campaign platform

I am not in the least bit a fan of Woodrow Wilson.
 
Ah, useful - thank you.

Now, here's the question - what modernization, if any, took place since that? We've already seen that Third System Forts are very vulnerable to heavy rifle fire, and Fort McHenry is second system.
.

I visited the fort over 20 years ago so having to go on flawed memory but I recall a hefty increase in firepower and the magazine was improved. The website is not very instructive as to when modifications were made so another source is needed (official park website, it is a National Monument). It was however a US Artillery school during the Civil War (a role taken later by Fortress Monroe)
 
Again, those were desperate gambles by a government which saw no way to win the war, not a mark of German contempt for the US. I know it's a cliche of popular American historiography to suppose that those stuffy and myopic Europeans never paid any attention to the rise of the US, but it's pretty much entirely false. Both the Allies and the Central Powers thought that once the US joined in on the Western Front an Allied victory was guaranteed; what do you think the Spring Offensive was about?

Winning the war quickly with the million extra troops freed up by the collapse of the Russians before another turnip winter created by the British blockade hit AND before the Americans arrived in any quantity (as it is the Americans arrived a lot quicker than the Germans anticipated, they thought they had more time).
 
The last had a lot to do with his "He kept us out of war" campaign platform

I am not in the least bit a fan of Woodrow Wilson.


Me neither. Had I been an American in 1916, I should have voted for Hughes w/o the slightest hesitation - and I'm not even convinced that the average American would have been noticeably worse off under Harding, for all the man's limitations.
 
Me neither. Had I been an American in 1916, I should have voted for Hughes w/o the slightest hesitation - and I'm not even convinced that the average American would have been noticeably worse off under Harding, for all the man's limitations.

Harding was not a disastrous President because of when he was in office but otherwise he is among our worst holders of that office. Wilson's problem was that he was a believer, and some of the things he believed really sucked.
 
Monitor's more heavily armed in terms of raw gun weight, and somewhat better armoured, but only produces about two shots every twelve minutes because the guns are too heavy to effectively use in a turret mount. What this means is that Monitor is better able to take damage but is catastrophically worse at dishing it out - which is what matters in a fight with a steam liner, which are very heavily armed.
Monitor also has unbacked armour and so hits would cause bad spalling.

The Monitor had 8 inches of armor, the Galena had 3 - that's a lot more than "somewhat better armoured". Where is your source for the claim that Monitor only fired two shots every twelve minutes?

Napoleon had a broadside of 45 guns, each of them able to fire about once per minute, and a top speed of 12 knots. Monitor had a total of two guns, each of them able to fire once every 12 minutes, and a top speed more like 5-6 knots.
Monitor would be pounded to bits simply because she'd be taking roughly 270 hits for every one she scored if fighting one battleship, and it would be quite possible that she'd be fighting more than one battleship.

Based on that reasoning, Monitor would have been pounded to bits by CSS Virginia. You are ignoring size of the target and armor penetration.

Why does average depth matter for Gloire (7.62 m) if it's fine for the Roanoke (7.2m)? Besides, average depth is average - the shipping channels are deeper, that's kind of the point.

The point is that the shallow draft Monitor can go a good deal of places that the Gloire cannot, which is an advantage.

Not really relevant, actually - Warrior's unarmoured stern wasn't a weak point as there was basically nothing of fighting value in there. The steering gear's all below the waterline.

"Despite the care taken over her design and build the ship did have some weaknesses...the major weakness criticised at the time, her rudder was very exposed by the design of the stern and furthermore the rudder and tiller head were outside the armoured citadel." - HMS Warrior: Ironclad Frigate 1860, Wyn Davies and Geoff Dennison

If there's enough of a rough sea that Gloire is an unstable gun platform, Monitor has already sunk - or if she's still afloat, she can't unseal her turret and can't turn it or fight (or reload).

You have missed my point. Gloire's center of balance is high - even in calm waters, when turning or firing she has a less stable gun platform.

Sherman got supplies by sea in OTL, when he reached the coast his wagons were empty.

Empty?

"We, on the contrary, possessed large herds of cattle, which we had brought along or gathered in the country, and our wagons still contained a reasonable amount of breadstuffs and other necessaries, and the fine rice crops of the Savannah and Ogeechee Rivers furnished to our men and animals a large amount of rice and rice straw. We also held the country to the south and west of the Ogeechee as foraging ground." - William T Sherman

As for Grant - yes, a week away from supply lines is doable if you start with full wagons (it's a "flying column"). The question is, where does Grant go with his flying column? How long does it take to organize, and what do the Confederates do in the meantime?

In actual history Grant got a flying column going in a few hours, sustained it for a week, and still had enough spare rations to feed the surrendered enemy - its called the Appomattox Campaign. If the Army of Northern Virginia comes out from behind their entrenchments, the Army of the Potomac should be able to crush them.
 
According to wikipedia, citing this https://books.google.com/books?id=M3DgGKmaHDEC in the fight from 845 AM until 1215 the Monitor fired off 42 rounds. It also broke off for 20 minutes to resupply the turret with ready ammunition, and due to turret problems had to let it continue to rotate after 11 AM (one of the problems of taking a prototype to sea hurriedly is teething troubles) and upon returning to battle at 1120 had only one gun shooting from then on.

So we have roughly 3 hours and 30 minutes of combat shooting, or 210 minutes. 42 rounds are fired, but roughly 60 minutes of that shooting is only from one gun. Problems with the turret meant that the guns could not be continuously trained on the target. That is a bit hard to estimate (how quickly did that turret revolve?) but that would seem to account for at least some of that time frame. Maybe 180 minutes total time shooting 42 rounds. That is one round every five minutes at worst, although again that turret problem after 1100 makes it a bit harder to determine.

In any event we are looking a far better than 2 shots every 12 minutes as that would mean in 210 minutes of combat the Monitor could have only fired off 35 rounds with both guns (and we know only one gun was used in the last 60 minutes of combat).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Monitor#Duel_of_the_ironclads

Note that Ericsson wanted 4 inch plate for his ship but due to the rushed nature of the construction had to settle for thinner plates. This would call into question the previous assertion that the Tredagar Iron Works was the finest iron mill in North America as it was the only one that could roll out 2 inch iron plate (indicating that this was the best possible available anywhere in North America). If he thought he could get it, but the hold up was time, it would seem to indicate that the problem of thicker iron plates could be solved if you are not trying to get a warship into action in a tight race to meet the enemy..
 
This is what the politics in the Confederacy might look like:

For the first few decades the Democrats win almost every election. Their biggest opposition comes from a revitalized Whig Party (maybe called something else, though) made up of independent farmers and industrialists.

Actually, most of the big planters had been Whigs; it was the small white farmers who were Democrats.
 
That is one round every five minutes at worst... In any event we are looking a far better than 2 shots every 12 minutes

Two shots every 12 minutes is equivalent to one shot every six, which I don't think is "far worse than" one shot every five minutes.

Note that Ericsson wanted 4 inch plate for his ship but due to the rushed nature of the construction had to settle for thinner plates. This would call into question the previous assertion that the Tredagar Iron Works was the finest iron mill in North America as it was the only one that could roll out 2 inch iron plate (indicating that this was the best possible available anywhere in North America).

No, because it would have been possible to import better plate from elsewhere (at least it would have been possible for the Union, who weren't under blockade at the time).
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The Monitor had 8 inches of armor, the Galena had 3 - that's a lot more than "somewhat better armoured".
The armour material, structure and backing also matters, focusing on raw thickness in this period is a recipe for mistakes. Galena's armour was thin, but it was properly backed and so she was much less likely to generate dangerous amounts of spall; it was also presumably not as plain bad as the silicaceous iron used for Monitor.

Galena's armour is worse for resisting penetration, but better for avoiding spall.

Where is your source for the claim that Monitor only fired two shots every twelve minutes?
She fired 41 shots (20 per gun) over the course of a three-and-a-half hour engagement. That's 19 reloads over the course of 210 minutes.

Based on that reasoning, Monitor would have been pounded to bits by CSS Virginia. You are ignoring size of the target and armor penetration.
Actually the Monitor did take a lot of hits from Virginia, but Virginia didn't have much ammunition left that wasn't shell. She was still pretty battered by the shell, but I strongly suspect that if Virginia had a full load of solid shot (rather than expending most of it the day before) the Monitor would have been at risk of a major defeat. (OTL she took about twenty hits, IIRC, and Virginia's broadside was only about four guns.)
Incidentally, one of the reasons why Virginia had expended a lot of her shot was that it was fired as hot shot - her reconstruction had placed her boiler somewhere she could easily use it to create hot shot. This, not shell, is the most dangerous weapon against a wooden ship.

The point is that the shallow draft Monitor can go a good deal of places that the Gloire cannot, which is an advantage.
To some extent, but it doesn't really help in defeating her - not when the strategy is to get in as close as possible.


"Despite the care taken over her design and build the ship did have some weaknesses...the major weakness criticised at the time, her rudder was very exposed by the design of the stern and furthermore the rudder and tiller head were outside the armoured citadel." - HMS Warrior: Ironclad Frigate 1860, Wyn Davies and Geoff Dennison
...and underwater.
Again, they're not very large targets. Are there any examples of a wooden warship disabled specifically by having her rudder shot away? (Heck, any iron ones?)
They're relatively vulnerable compared to the rest of the ship, but it's not a major one simply because the 'target' is hidden and is in the middle of the ship.

You have missed my point. Gloire's center of balance is high - even in calm waters, when turning or firing she has a less stable gun platform.
Oh, right, the metacentric height.
Out of interest, what's the metacentric height of the Monitor? You know, for comparison, since I happen to know Gloire had about 6 feet and other Monitor types (Miantonomoh) was 15 feet, so we can't just say "Gloire is unstable" without comparing her to other ships.


"We, on the contrary, possessed large herds of cattle, which we had brought along or gathered in the country, and our wagons still contained a reasonable amount of breadstuffs and other necessaries, and the fine rice crops of the Savannah and Ogeechee Rivers furnished to our men and animals a large amount of rice and rice straw. We also held the country to the south and west of the Ogeechee as foraging ground." - William T Sherman
Continuing the quote:

Still, communication with the fleet was of vital importance; and I directed General Kilpatrick to cross the Ogeechee by a pontoon bridge, to reconnoiter Fort McAllister, and to proceed to Saint Catherine’s Sound, in the direction of Sunbery or Kilkenny Bluff, and open communication with the fleet. General Howard had previously, by my direction, sent one of his best scouts down the Ogeechee in a canoe for a like purpose. But more than this was necessary. We wanted the vessels and their contents; and the Ogeechee River, a navigable stream, close to the rear of our camps, was the proper avenue of supply.

This shouldn't be surprising, as his account says his wagons when full carried roughly twenty days of person food and three days of animal food. By consuming everything in a line sixty miles across and 230 long they avoided using up all of those supplies over the course of about a month, but operating thirty miles out of Savannah in a semicircle is going to cover only about 1350 square miles (while the above line of movement covered ten times that area).


In actual history Grant got a flying column going in a few hours, sustained it for a week, and still had enough spare rations to feed the surrendered enemy - its called the Appomattox Campaign. If the Army of Northern Virginia comes out from behind their entrenchments, the Army of the Potomac should be able to crush them.
Well, Grant had been collecting supplies for several days for an operation in that direction, which undoubtedly helped, and
It's also during the spring, which is an easier time for all this (especially for grazing) than the mid-winter.
But let's go with that - the Appomattox campaign went roughly ten miles a day (70-80 miles over the course of a week) and was in part over as-yet-untouched ground.
To get across the North Anna it's about forty-five straight line miles, but the route goes directly through both Petersburg and Richmond so that won't do - instead you have to move around the flanks, making the operation longer, and essentially exposing the flank of the army to the Confederate forces in Richmond and Petersburg.

This kind of thing is why the Union didn't just send their army around Richmond to cut off the rail lines straight away, which is that an army moving with their flank to an enemy position is vulnerable - they're not mutually supporting. The Army of the Potomac at this point is large enough that a single column on a road would stretch about thirty-five miles (before allowing for intervals between brigades, divisions and corps), and the more you divide it up the more roads you need and the more the flank column is a vulnerable target. Lee could easily mount demonstration attacks (i.e. threaten the Union column of march), force them to close up, make them lose time and generally screw up their supply situation. (This didn't matter in the Appomattox campaign because the enemy was generally ahead of the Union army - but it'd be far more difficult with the enemy on the flank.)

Even in the best case for the Union where they get out of trouble, however, with the supplies cut off you have the Confederate capital saved (and the morale of the Army of the Potomac, presumably, shot.)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
According to wikipedia, citing this https://books.google.com/books?id=M3DgGKmaHDEC in the fight from 845 AM until 1215 the Monitor fired off 42 rounds. It also broke off for 20 minutes to resupply the turret with ready ammunition, and due to turret problems had to let it continue to rotate after 11 AM (one of the problems of taking a prototype to sea hurriedly is teething troubles) and upon returning to battle at 1120 had only one gun shooting from then on.
Do you have a quote for only one gun shooting? During the ram attempt only one gun was fired, but that's because the other one was not loaded. She fired 41 (not 42) cast-iron shot equally split between guns 27 and 28.

Two of them were fired after 1215, but whatever.
More interesting is the 20 minute resupply time, as that required opening the deck hatches.


Wrigley (Ironclads in action) confirms that the Virginia had no solid shot to use.

Note that Ericsson wanted 4 inch plate for his ship but due to the rushed nature of the construction had to settle for thinner plates. This would call into question the previous assertion that the Tredagar Iron Works was the finest iron mill in North America as it was the only one that could roll out 2 inch iron plate (indicating that this was the best possible available anywhere in North America). If he thought he could get it, but the hold up was time, it would seem to indicate that the problem of thicker iron plates could be solved if you are not trying to get a warship into action in a tight race to meet the enemy..
As Fabius suggests, there was in fact a lot of effort to purchase iron plate in Britain. But it was also possible to produce 4" plate in the US, it just wasn't rolled plate - it was hammered, which took so long roughly one ship was produced a year with hammered armour.
(This is supported by the nature of the Passaic class, which also all used 1" laminate instead.)
 
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