The World Would be Better Off Today If . . .

Which of the following PODs would have most benefited the world?

  • Alexander the Great lives to a ripe old age

    Votes: 30 5.1%
  • The Roman Empire never collapsed

    Votes: 67 11.5%
  • Constantinople doesn't fall to the Turks

    Votes: 58 9.9%
  • The Muslims are not driven out of Spain

    Votes: 55 9.4%
  • The Aztecs destroy the Cortez expedition

    Votes: 20 3.4%
  • There is no Protestant Reformation

    Votes: 22 3.8%
  • Peter the Great doesn't attempt to modernize Russia

    Votes: 8 1.4%
  • The French win the French and Indian War

    Votes: 35 6.0%
  • Woodrow Wilson never becomes President

    Votes: 142 24.4%
  • The British Empire never collapses

    Votes: 146 25.0%

  • Total voters
    583
Leej said:
You were using it to refer to the entire war.
It is a valid name for the American front but horribly simplistic and close minded for the entire war.
Was he?

:confused:
Oh, you are talking about this quote:
"I did not realize you were arguing for U.S. foreign policy"
You had said,
Quite a large driving factor behind British policy for the past 200 years was doing the good and christian thing to help those less fortunate then ourselves.
My point, which I thought was clear, is that the U.S. makes similar policy pronouncements, yet it is your contention that the U.S. is bad for the world, so how does this make the British kleptocracy monarchy any better?


OK what the hell are you trying to argue here? That is absolutely FA to do with how the chances of the world being a better place increase with no AR. And since when were all the native Americans our enemies?
What I said was that the enforcement of the Proclamation line was a slap in the face to the Colonists. Some of the natives, notbly the Iroquois, sided with the French in the war. It too bothered the colonies that any dispute with the various Native American groups were left unsettled in the Seven Year's War.

Again you are being confusing.
What are you trying to say? You believe British taxes were less then the American ones? As that is ceratinly not true by a long shot.
What I am saying is that Britons had a say in their taxation. What civilians on the continent had such an imput?
The American colonists, citing their rights as Englishmen argued that they could not be taxed by a government in which they had no imput. It was, in the view ogf the settlers, taxation without representation, in addition to confined to the lands east of the Appalachian Mountains.

Obviously not well enough.
 

Keenir

Banned
Wendell said:
What I am saying is that Britons had a say in their taxation. What civilians on the continent had such an imput?
The American colonists, citing their rights as Englishmen argued that they could not be taxed by a government in which they had no imput. It was, in the view ogf the settlers, taxation without representation, in addition to confined to the lands east of the Appalachian Mountains.

so....when is the District of Columbia going to have their revolution?
 
Keenir said:
so....when is the District of Columbia going to have their revolution?
They are represented in the House of Representatives. THe district is not a state, because the capital belongs to each of the states equally. It is thus, partial towards none. If it were me, I would reform D.C., but still not make the place a state.
 

Keenir

Banned
Wendell said:
They are represented in the House of Representatives. THe district is not a state, because the capital belongs to each of the states equally. It is thus, partial towards none. If it were me, I would reform D.C., but still not make the place a state.

yet they're taxed separately, right?
(as opposed to being taxed once for each of the 50 states).

if I may ask, who is D.C.'s Representative? *curious*
 
Wendell said:
Certainly seems that way.
The French just winning the F&I war would be almost irrelevant if they loose the rest of the 7YW.

My point, which I thought was clear, is that the U.S. makes similar policy pronouncements,
They never carried them through though, you just killed your natives at least we made a effort and succeded in many places.

yet it is your contention that the U.S. is bad for the world,
No I'm not...Where in this thread did I say anything of the sort?
so how does this make the British kleptocracy monarchy any better?
Ah the typical silly kiddy view of AH- That post POD the world will remain as it is with none of the major players changing at all.
Please be rational. The industrial revolution was beginning to pick up pace (I will not pun...) and it was inevitable full representation would follow.


What I said was that the enforcement of the Proclamation line was a slap in the face to the Colonists. Some of the natives, notbly the Iroquois, sided with the French in the war. It too bothered the colonies that any dispute with the various Native American groups were left unsettled in the Seven Year's War.
A 'slap in the face' to the colonists maybe but it was the right thing to do. Just look what the said colonists did when they were set free to rampage beyond the line down in the US.

What I am saying is that Britons had a say in their taxation. What civilians on the continent had such an imput?
The American colonists, citing their rights as Englishmen argued that they could not be taxed by a government in which they had no imput. It was, in the view ogf the settlers, taxation without representation, in addition to confined to the lands east of the Appalachian Mountains.
Ah the old excuses American school kids get drilled into them.
That was actually very little to do with the reason for the revolution, it was just used as a excuse to justify it as 'We want to be the ones to rule the local poor people not parliament!' wouldn't gain them much support.
And actually more Britons didn't have a say in government then those that did at the time. The bar for the wealth needed to vote was still rather high.

Yes, they paid taxes. And they were represented in the Parliament which imposed those taxes. American colonists were not represented in said Parliament, yet said Parliament was imposing taxes upon them. Thus the rub.
Except the Americans payed a fraction of what the Britons paid and as far as representation was concerned were far better off being allowed to rule themselves.
You don't see the channel islands moaning about being under the yoke of British oppression do you?
 
wendell said:
Some of the natives, notbly the Iroquois, sided with the French in the war.

A minor point...actually the Iroquois were one of the few tribes which sided with the British throughout the "French and Indian Wars" (1690-1763). The traditional enemies of the Iroquois, Algonquian tribes like the Huron and many others, sided with the French.
 
I don't think Wilson was at fault for the failure of Versailles, the French were simply too adamant about wrecking Germany
 
Keenir said:
if I may ask, who is D.C.'s Representative? *curious*
You do know they have a representive right? Just like US territories have representives. I think Washington itself is only subject to the municapallity's taxes and the federal taxes.

The delagate to the house of representives is Eleanor Holmes Norton as D.C.'s Delagate atLarge.
 
Leej said:
The French just winning the F&I war would be almost irrelevant if they loose the rest of the 7YW.

They'd almost certainly keep Quebec, which would have huge effects on American history.

Please be rational. The industrial revolution was beginning to pick up pace (I will not pun...) and it was inevitable full representation would follow.

What makes you so certain that representation is necessary for industrialization?

Soviet Russia industrialized; yet we wouldn't call that a representative state.


A 'slap in the face' to the colonists maybe but it was the right thing to do. Just look what the said colonists did when they were set free to rampage beyond the line down in the US.

Perhaps, but judging by the way that the British suppressed Pontiac's Revolt (giving blankets infected with smallpox to the Indians), it's clear that the British didn't do it out of the kindness of their heart.

The British supported the Proclamation because they didn't want the colonists to spread out, and because they didn't want the colonists to upset the fur trade.


hat was actually very little to do with the reason for the revolution, it was just used as a excuse to justify it as 'We want to be the ones to rule the local poor people not parliament!' wouldn't gain them much support.

Except the poor people tended to favor the Revolutionary cause, not the loyalists. This is understandable, because higher taxes would hurt them the hardest.

And actually more Britons didn't have a say in government then those that did at the time. The bar for the wealth needed to vote was still rather high.

Just because the British were too foolish to revolt doesn't mean the colonists were wrong to do so. In New England especially, the majority of the male colonists could vote.


Except the Americans payed a fraction of what the Britons paid and as far as representation was concerned were far better off being allowed to rule themselves. [/'quote]

But they were also denied rights given to British citizens;the right to be officers with the government, the right to develop manufacturing, the right to trade directly with other nations, etc.
 

Keenir

Banned
Faeelin said:
Perhaps, but judging by the way that the British suppressed Pontiac's Revolt (giving blankets infected with smallpox to the Indians), it's clear that the British didn't do it out of the kindness of their heart.

and how exactly did the Colonists, post-revolution, suppress Indian revolts?



Faeelin said:
Except the Americans payed a fraction of what the Britons paid and as far as representation was concerned were far better off being allowed to rule themselves. [/'quote]

But they were also denied rights given to British citizens;the right to be officers with the government, the right to develop manufacturing, the right to trade directly with other nations, etc.

when did Australia and Brazil get those rights?


(the first is a direct analogy, within the British orbit; the second is comparison, showing that the British weren't the strictest)
 
I am starting to wonder where all this discussion relates to the thread.

The point is that the American Revolution is hardly a revolt against unalloyed tyranny. It is a change of power from one elite to another.
The British government could have won over the new elite yet was too inept to do so.
Historically speaking its main impact was on geopolitical developments, not ideological - it is hard to see how a country with huge open spaces, a self-reliant population, a high degree of external security and the benefits of a common law tradition could not have been a free one barring a massive discontinuity.

My attack is on the alleged exceptionalism of the American revolution, constitution and nation.
 
I think we could agree that the US , Canada , and most of the European states turned out to be just fine in OTL ( or are about to ). These states have a high standard of living and the citizens enjoy many rights.
The same can be said about Australia , New Zeeland and Japan.
Other far-eastern states are also wealthy , though their citizens don't have so much rights as the Americans and Europeans in their own countries.

So , if we want to find a POD that makes the world better , we should find a POD that changes the future of Africa , the Arab world , Central Asia , and , if possible , of Russia , South America and China.

I voted for the survival of the British Empire ( not in the form of the 1770's , in the form of the 1930's ) because I think it would have been better for the African nations that were British colonies , and maybe for the Arab world .
 
Can there be any doubt? RULE BRITTANIA.

Also, the early PoDs are too early to allow any reasonable prediction about their long tern effects
 
Andrei said:
So , if we want to find a POD that makes the world better , we should find a POD that changes the future of Africa , the Arab world , Central Asia , and , if possible , of Russia , South America and China.
That's a great point. We are really splitting hairs to try to tamper with the West when so much of the rest of the world needs so much more work!

Africa needs to evolve in a way that prevents the "national liberation movements" seizing power when the Europeans leave and starting the cycle of dictatorship and coup. POD could be that the Europeans aren't forced out of the continent, but rather the colonies develop their independence slowly in stages, like Canada did from 1840 to 1982.

The Muslim world needs a healy competition of ideas and a tradition of peaceful transfer of power rather than simply the choice of repressive moarchies, secular dictatorships, or Islamist theocracies. POD could be Arab independence well before the Cold War started (or after it ended) and issues of Soviet - American rivalry and the Arab-Israeli dispute complicated things.

Russia need to avoid communism, or have it fail and be discredited early on, before Stalin started killing millions. A slow transition from Tsarist autocracy to a constitutional parliamentary system would help. But it needs to start well before 1917!

China is the same as Russia: reforming the old system before it collapses and allows extremists to take over is key.

South America needs go for true democratic revolutions in the mould of the US and France, not shifting power from Spain and Portugal to local elites. OR stay with Spain and Portugal and have a POD where they reform democratically.
 
Keenir said:
and how exactly did the Colonists, post-revolution, suppress Indian revolts?

I never denied that the Americans also treated Indians horribly. I merely pointed out that to claim that the British were acting out of concern for them is naive at best.

when did Australia and Brazil get those rights?

(the first is a direct analogy, within the British orbit; the second is comparison, showing that the British weren't the strictest)

The Brazillians became an independent state in the early 1820s, after the Portuguese court fled to Brazil after Napoleon's conquests of Portugal.

Again, I'm not sure what's with the constant claims that other peoples had it worse off. I guess by that logic, the Nazi occupation of France wasn't a bad thing, since hey, at least they weren't being wiped out.
 
Wozza said:
The point is that the American Revolution is hardly a revolt against unalloyed tyranny. It is a change of power from one elite to another.
The British government could have won over the new elite yet was too inept to do so.

Except if you look at voting patterns, before and after the Revolution, it's clear that there was a dramatic change, to the point where New Jersey was experimenting with women voting decades before anyone else would.

And, let's not forget that the Bill of Rights, including the freedom of religion, came decades before the Catholic Emancipation in Britain.

Historically speaking its main impact was on geopolitical developments, not ideological - it is hard to see how a country with huge open spaces, a self-reliant population, a high degree of external security and the benefits of a common law tradition could not have been a free one barring a massive discontinuity.

I can think of a nation with all of that except for common law, that failed to develop as such a nation.

Likewise, I think Kaiser's constructed a plausible nation that did have all of those traits and failed to develop into a democracy.
 
Keenir said:
and how exactly did the Colonists, post-revolution, suppress Indian revolts?
*cough* second Boer War*cough*
*cough* Anglo-Zulu War *cough*
*cough* settlement of Austriallia *cough*
*cough* Ireland*cough*
 
Sir Isaac Brock said:
That's a great point. We are really splitting hairs to try to tamper with the West when so much of the rest of the world needs so much more work!

Africa needs to evolve in a way that prevents the "national liberation movements" seizing power when the Europeans leave and starting the cycle of dictatorship and coup. POD could be that the Europeans aren't forced out of the continent, but rather the colonies develop their independence slowly in stages, like Canada did from 1840 to 1982.

The Muslim world needs a healy competition of ideas and a tradition of peaceful transfer of power rather than simply the choice of repressive moarchies, secular dictatorships, or Islamist theocracies. POD could be Arab independence well before the Cold War started (or after it ended) and issues of Soviet - American rivalry and the Arab-Israeli dispute complicated things.

Russia need to avoid communism, or have it fail and be discredited early on, before Stalin started killing millions. A slow transition from Tsarist autocracy to a constitutional parliamentary system would help. But it needs to start well before 1917!

China is the same as Russia: reforming the old system before it collapses and allows extremists to take over is key.

South America needs go for true democratic revolutions in the mould of the US and France, not shifting power from Spain and Portugal to local elites. OR stay with Spain and Portugal and have a POD where they reform democratically.


I agree with your points.
However , the only POD in the poll which could have achieved some of those improvements is the one with the survival of the British Empire.

But let's examine them:

"Alexander the Great lives to a ripe old age"
So , assuming he had remained sane , he would have tried to conquer the Arabian peninsula , he would have had to put down rebelions , and , after his death , the empire would have collapsed , because it was way too big , too diverse , and it was made in a very short time by the ambition of one man .
In the end , not much different from OTL.

"The Roman Empire never collapsed"
It depends on what everyone understands by that , but if it survives in the form it had in the II or III century AD , the consequences are too hard to predict .
However , the Roman society , and life in the empire were far from perfect. ( gladiators , slaves , many civil wars , mad emperors , barbarian invasions ).

"Constantinople doesn't fall to the Turks"
It's too late for that to change something . In 1453 , the Ottomans were pretty much in control of the Balkans and Anatolia , and the Byzantine Empire had only Constantinople and Morea ( Peleopones ). If Constantinople hadn't fallen in 1453 it would have either fallen later or it would have become another small Ottoman vassal. Not much different from OTL , and it might have been actually worse. In the final days of the Empire , constantinople had only 100,000 inhabitants ( as to 500,000 to 1 million several hundred years earlier ) and many buildings were little more than ruins. The Ottomans had transformed the decayed city into their capital and into one of europe's greatest cities.
Now , If Byzantium had avoided the decline it experienced in the XIV century , it might have changed something to the better , but only on the local plan ( united Balkans , wealthyer Balkans and Anatolia ).

"The Muslims are not driven out from Spain"
This would probably have meant a later discovery and colonisation of America.

"The Aztecs destroy the Cortez expedition"
Then the Spaniards will try again.
And if the Aztec Empire had survived it would have continued to be a theocracy that practiced human sacrifices.

"There is no protestant reform"
Slower scientific progress , slower colonisation of America , Europe is dominated by a repressive and corrupt Catholic Church.

"Peter the Great doesn't attempt to modernise Russia"
IMO this would have been worse than in OTL , I think Russia needed more czars like him.

"The French win the French and Indian war"
This would probably slow down history . The French didn't really care about New France , in OTL they actually chose to keep a sugar island ( Guadelupe? ) rather than Canada. The loss of Canada lead to the American Revolution , a good thing IMO , because the US was more liberal than Britain in the late XVIIIth century , and because it made the British Empire to reconsider it's attitude towards their colonies , becoming more liberal.

"Woodrow Wilson never becomes president"
What would that lead to? No 14 points , harsher peace treaty , WWII harder to avoid than in OTL , maybe no League of Nations , maybe even no UN after WWII.

"British Empire never collapses"
Almost certainly better for the African states which became independent ( no dictatorships , no civil wars , less poverty , more prospects ).
Probably more liberal Singapore , Malaysia and Burma.
It could have been better for the Arab countries if the British had managed to keep controll over them . Given enough time , maybe those countires would have become like Kuwait and the UAE. Maybe even Iran wouldn't have had the islamic revolution.
I'm not sure about India and Pakistan , but maybe it would have been better for them to remain in the Empire a few more decades.
 

Keenir

Banned
Othniel said:
*cough* second Boer War*cough*
*cough* Anglo-Zulu War *cough*
*cough* settlement of Austriallia *cough*
*cough* Ireland*cough*

and that proves the dangerousness of an expansionist Britain, true. (which was the only avenue left to it, after teh Revolution)

btw, do you really think that the US could've handled any of those things better?

we handed out just as many diseased blankets to the Indians....and we tried to invade Canada!
 
Keenir said:
and that proves the dangerousness of an expansionist Britain, true. (which was the only avenue left to it, after teh Revolution)

btw, do you really think that the US could've handled any of those things better?

we handed out just as many diseased blankets to the Indians....and we tried to invade Canada!
Anyone could have handled the Boer Wars better. Burning down peoples houses and then putting them in concentration camps...oh sure it wasn't new, Spain did the same thing to the Cubans but the Brits brought it to a whole new level. Thanks for giving Hitler ideas.
 
Top