The World Would be Better Off Today If . . .

Which of the following PODs would have most benefited the world?

  • Alexander the Great lives to a ripe old age

    Votes: 30 5.1%
  • The Roman Empire never collapsed

    Votes: 67 11.5%
  • Constantinople doesn't fall to the Turks

    Votes: 58 9.9%
  • The Muslims are not driven out of Spain

    Votes: 55 9.4%
  • The Aztecs destroy the Cortez expedition

    Votes: 20 3.4%
  • There is no Protestant Reformation

    Votes: 22 3.8%
  • Peter the Great doesn't attempt to modernize Russia

    Votes: 8 1.4%
  • The French win the French and Indian War

    Votes: 35 6.0%
  • Woodrow Wilson never becomes President

    Votes: 142 24.4%
  • The British Empire never collapses

    Votes: 146 25.0%

  • Total voters
    583
A group of rich men fancy not paying taxes and keeping slaves, about a third of the population supports them, they impose their will on the rest of the population by the force of arms and subsequently cleanse the country of their most determined opponents.

It seems eminently reasonable that this event not happening would create a better world.

It is absured to refer to the French and Indian War due to the ambiguity, you would not refer to WW2 as "the Italian campaign in the western desert."
It is ambiguous about whether the French win in Europe and N America or just N America. Quite a big issue. The former might involve the crushing of Prussia for instance.
 
LordKalvan said:
Because France is ascendant in the period 1550-1750 (roughly, don't crucify me on the dates): however she never manages to achieve an egemony, and in particular to tame the traditional Habsburg enemies. IMO, a France successful on the field of arms and capable to achieve dominance over Northern Italy, Flanders and the Rhenish states would become incommensurably richer, and this would reflect in cultural achievements too.

Okay, maybe they'd have a rich cultural life. But what makes you think it would be cultural life that would be, in our eyes, pleasing?

Speaking as the descendent of French Hugenots who fled to Britain, I'm not enamored with the idea of the Sun King ruling Europe.
 
Wozza said:
A group of rich men fancy not paying taxes and keeping slaves, about a third of the population supports them, they impose their will on the rest of the population by the force of arms and subsequently cleanse the country of their most determined opponents.
.

Okay, let's look at your statements:

Fancy rich men. Hmm. Many of the prominent founding fathers were rich planters, so yes, they were rich. (Although of course the noble families in Britain itself were far richer).

The colonists were supported by more than a third of the nation, according to most recent analyses of the revolutin's support.

Britain's other colonies continued to hold slaves until 1833. There is no reason to believe that the British would have freed the slaves after the Revolution.

And, of course, who would be so naive as to think that Washington and Jefferson would not have been killed, had the English won?
 
A French victory in the 7 years war would certainly lead to a better world for the Indians, as they wouldn't be wiped out by British officers practicing biological warfare.
 
Faeelin said:
Okay, let's look at your statements:
Fancy rich men. Hmm. Many of the prominent founding fathers were rich planters, so yes, they were rich. (Although of course the noble families in Britain itself were far richer).
The colonists were supported by more than a third of the nation, according to most recent analyses of the revolutin's support.
Britain's other colonies continued to hold slaves until 1833. There is no reason to believe that the British would have freed the slaves after the Revolution.
And, of course, who would be so naive as to think that Washington and Jefferson would not have been killed, had the English won?

The figures I have seen have always said one third. Of course figures get revised, I will confess to no expertise.
Butwho does the revising? Not I hope the historians who use the first person plural and refer to the "patriot" cause who filled one AH book I read.

The abolition of slavery was already on the agenda and a cause of concern.

The wealthy landowners of Britain paid taxes.

Washington would indeed have been executed. But why should someone should be expelled from their home for not supporting a violent, rebellious political faction?
 
Wozza said:
The abolition of slavery was already on the agenda and a cause of concern.

This was true in America as well. The northern states actually abolished before Britain did in its colonies.

The wealthy landowners of Britain paid taxes.

They did in America, as well. Sure, they didn't pay as much. But they also couldn't be officers in the British Army; they were forbidden from developing a native industry; they were officially forbidden from trading with foreign nations, and they were forbidden by the crown from settling the lands that they viewed as rightfully belonging to them, according to the colonial charters.

Washington would indeed have been executed. But why should someone should be expelled from their home for not supporting a violent, rebellious political faction?

Why should a man be executed for standing up for his rights against an oppressive government?
 
Faeelin said:
Why should a man be executed for standing up for his rights against an oppressive government?
Sure....That's exactly what he was doing.


Damn, forgot to leave a warning. Everyone's sarcasm detectors will be destroyed...
 
Leej said:
Sure....That's exactly what he was doing.

Okay. Explain to me how closing down the port of Boston, in retaliation for the acts of a few of the city's citizens, was a just action.

Explain to me the fairness in the Administration of Justice Act, which let the governor of Massachussetts decree that any trial could be transferred to another colony or Great Britain.

How about the Massachusetts Government Act, which forbade the citizens of Massachussetts from assembling without the royal governor's position?

What benefits did the Americans get from being under the Crown?
 
ShadowCommunist2009 said:
His war with the west happened to coincide with a planned purge of the medical profession in the Soviet Union. You can thank his private physician for his untimely death, not Beria. Beria kill Uncle Joe? You've got to be kidding. The entire Politburo, nay, 80-90% of the entire populous absolutely LOVED the man, simply because all effective opposition to his cult of personality was either killed or deported. And those that weren't were cleverly hidden away building things.
Well, Beria did have one reason for offing Stalin. In the documents concerning the Doctor's Plot circulating back and forth in the Kremlin during the last years of Stalin's life, one of the recurring commands from higher up was "to look for the Great Mingrel (sp?) in the plot." Guess what nationality Beria was. Furthermore, as the stories of Yagoda and Yezhov illustrate, Stalin's hatchetmen tend not to survive long after a purge has started winding down. In this case, it may be more a "get him before he gets me" thing than anything alturistic.
 
Can someone please explain why Woodrow Wilson not becoming President would make the world a better place?

I've read this whole thread and it seems like people think that no Wilson = no American involvement in WWI = Central Powers victory = a better world, none of which makes any sense to me.

And talking of Central Powers victories, is there anything worth reading on this topic e.g. discussion, timeline, fiction?
 
Akiyama said:
Can someone please explain why Woodrow Wilson not becoming President would make the world a better place?

I've read this whole thread and it seems like people think that no Wilson = no American involvement in WWI = Central Powers victory = a better world, none of which makes any sense to me.

And talking of Central Powers victories, is there anything worth reading on this topic e.g. discussion, timeline, fiction?
Look up what Woodrow Wilson did as PResident domestically, also look at the fourteen points. How would of anouther American conducted the peace against the Central Powers? How about with management of wartime loans? Most think that other candidents could have handled that better.
 
Look up what Woodrow Wilson did as PResident domestically

I just did.

The Clayton Antitrust Act making it more difficult to establish monopolies - a Good Thing.

The Nineteenth Amendment that gave women the vote - a Good Thing.

Appointed the first Jewish Supreme Court Justice, Louis Brandeis - a Good Thing in the context of the time, as people were quite racist back then, and this established that people would not be barred from high office on grounds of race.

Increased wages for labourers - a Good Thing.

The Espionage Act making it illegal to publicly support the enemy - well, I am for free speech, but this was par for the course at the time: other nations had the same laws. How does the US deal today with Americans calling on Iraqis to kill US soldiers or Al-Qaeda to kill US civilians?

The Sedition Act making it illegal to criticise the government - A Bad Thing.

So apart from the Sedition Act, I can't see anything objectionable here.

also look at the fourteen points. How would of anouther American conducted the peace against the Central Powers? How about with management of wartime loans? Most think that other candidents could have handled that better.

The Fourteen Points were incredibly wise, and it's just a pity more people didn't realise that at the time. He did win the Nobel Prize though, deservedly IMO.

I disagree that the Treaty of Versailles should have been harsher towards Germany (I assume this is what you mean since Wilson was the only person arguing that it should have been less harsh). The Treaty of Versailles was too harsh already, and this was one of the main reasons behind the rise of extremism within Germany in the '20s and '30s, which eventually led to the Second World War. And if you mean that nations shouldn't determine their own destinies, well, that's just wrong. The last thing Europe needed was another Austro-Hungarian Empire or Jugoslavia. Nations where one ethnic group lords it over another don't last long.
 
African Americans welcomed his election in 1912, but they were worried too. During his first term in office, the House passed a law making racial intermarriage a felony in the District of Columbia. His new Postmaster General also ordered that his Washington offices be segregated, with the Treasury and Navy soon doing the same. Suddenly, photographs were required of all applicants for federal jobs. When pressed by black leaders, Wilson replied, "The purpose of these measures was to reduce the friction ... It is as far as possible from being a movement against the Negroes. I sincerely believe it to be in their interest."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/wilson/portrait/wp_african.html
 
Akiyama said:
I disagree that the Treaty of Versailles should have been harsher towards Germany (I assume this is what you mean since Wilson was the only person arguing that it should have been less harsh). The Treaty of Versailles was too harsh already, and this was one of the main reasons behind the rise of extremism within Germany in the '20s and '30s, which eventually led to the Second World War. And if you mean that nations shouldn't determine their own destinies, well, that's just wrong. The last thing Europe needed was another Austro-Hungarian Empire or Jugoslavia. Nations where one ethnic group lords it over another don't last long.
I meant regarding indemineies and loans.
 
Akiyama said:
I disagree that the Treaty of Versailles should have been harsher towards Germany (I assume this is what you mean since Wilson was the only person arguing that it should have been less harsh). The Treaty of Versailles was too harsh already, and this was one of the main reasons behind the rise of extremism within Germany in the '20s and '30s, which eventually led to the Second World War. And if you mean that nations shouldn't determine their own destinies, well, that's just wrong. The last thing Europe needed was another Austro-Hungarian Empire or Jugoslavia. Nations where one ethnic group lords it over another don't last long.
Gentlemen of the Congress:

Once more, as repeatedly before, the spokesmen of the Central Empires have indicated their desire to discuss the objects of the war and the possible basis of a general peace. Parleys have been in progress at Brest-Litovsk between Russsian representatives and representatives of the Central Powers to which the attention of all the belligerents have been invited for the purpose of ascertaining whether it may be possible to extend these parleys into a general conference with regard to terms of peace and settlement.

The Russian representatives presented not only a perfectly definite statement of the principles upon which they would be willing to conclude peace but also an equally definite program of the concrete application of those principles. The representatives of the Central Powers, on their part, presented an outline of settlement which, if runch less definite, seemed susceptible of liberal interpretation until their specific program of practical terms was added. That program proposed no concessions at all either to the sovereignty of Russia or to the preferences of the populations with whose fortunes it dealt, but meant, in a word, that the Central Empires were to keep every foot of territory their armed forces had occupied -- every province, every city, every point of vantage -- as a permanent addition to their territories and their power.

It is a reasonable conjecture that the general principles of settlement which they at first suggested originated with the more liberal statesmen of Germany and Austria, the men who have begun to feel the force of their own people's thought and purpose, while the concrete terms of actual settlement came from the military leaders who have no thought but to keep what they have got. The negotiations have been broken off. The Russian representatives were sincere and in earnest. They cannot entertain such proposals of conquest and domination.

The whole incident is full of signifiances. It is also full of perplexity. With whom are the Russian representatives dealing? For whom are the representatives of the Central Empires speaking? Are they speaking for the majorities of their respective parliaments or for the minority parties, that military and imperialistic minority which has so far dominated their whole policy and controlled the affairs of Turkey and of the Balkan states which have felt obliged to become their associates in this war?

The Russian representatives have insisted, very justly, very wisely, and in the true spirit of modern democracy, that the conferences they have been holding with the Teutonic and Turkish statesmen should be held within open not closed, doors, and all the world has been audience, as was desired. To whom have we been listening, then? To those who speak the spirit and intention of the resolutions of the German Reichstag of the 9th of July last, the spirit and intention of the Liberal leaders and parties of Germany, or to those who resist and defy that spirit and intention and insist upon conquest and subjugation? Or are we listening, in fact, to both, unreconciled and in open and hopeless contradiction? These are very serious and pregnant questions. Upon the answer to them depends the peace of the world.

But, whatever the results of the parleys at Brest-Litovsk, whatever the confusions of counsel and of purpose in the utterances of the spokesmen of the Central Empires, they have again attempted to acquaint the world with their objects in the war and have again challenged their adversaries to say what their objects are and what sort of settlement they would deem just and satisfactory. There is no good reason why that challenge should not be responded to, and responded to with the utmost candor. We did not wait for it. Not once, but again and again, we have laid our whole thought and purpose before the world, not in general terms only, but each time with sufficient definition to make it clear what sort of definite terms of settlement must necessarily spring out of them. Within the last week Mr. Lloyd George has spoken with admirable candor and in admirable spirit for the people and Government of Great Britain.

There is no confusion of counsel among the adversaries of the Central Powers, no uncertainty of principle, no vagueness of detail. The only secrecy of counsel, the only lack of fearless frankness, the only failure to make definite statement of the objects of the war, lies with Germany and her allies. The issues of life and death hang upon these definitions. No statesman who has the least conception of his responsibility ought for a moment to permit himself to continue this tragical and appalling outpouring of blood and treasure unless he is sure beyond a peradventure that the objects of the vital sacrifice are part and parcel of the very life of Society and that the people for whom he speaks think them right and imperative as he does.

There is, moreover, a voice calling for these definitions of principle and of purpose which is, it seems to me, more thrilling and more compelling than any of the many moving voices with which the troubled air of the world is filled. It is the voice of the Russian people. They are prostrate and all but hopeless, it would seem, before the grim power of Germany, which has hitherto known no relenting and no pity. Their power, apparently, is shattered. And yet their soul is not subservient. They will not yield either in principle or in action. Their conception of what is right, of what is humane and honorable for them to accept, has been stated with a frankness, a largeness of view, a generosity of spirit, and a universal human sympathy which must challenge the admiration of every friend of mankind; and they have refused to compound their ideals or desert others that they themselves may be safe.

They call to us to say what it is that we desire, in what, if in anything, our purpose and our spirit differ from theirs; and I believe that the people of the United States would wish me to respond, with utter simplicity and frankness. Whether their present leaders believe it or not, it is our heartfelt desire and hope that some way may be opened whereby we may be privileged to assist the people of Russia to attain their utmost hope of liberty and ordered peace.

It will be our wish and purpose that the processes of peace, when they are begun, shall be absolutely open and that they shall involve and permit henceforth no secret understandings of any kind. The day of conquest and aggrandizement is gone by; so is also the day of secret covenants entered into in the interest of particular governments and likely at some unlooked-for moment to upset the peace of the world. It is this happy fact, now clear to the view of every public man whose thoughts do not still linger in an age that is dead and gone, which makes it possible for every nation whose purposes are consistent with justice and the peace of the world to avow nor or at any other time the objects it has in view.

We entered this war because violations of right had occurred which touched us to the quick and made the life of our own people impossible unless they were corrected and the world secure once for all against their recurrence. What we demand in this war, therefore, is nothing peculiar to ourselves. It is that the world be made fit and safe to live in; and particularly that it be made safe for every peace-loving nation which, like our own, wishes to live its own life, determine its own institutions, be assured of justice and fair dealing by the other peoples of the world as against force and selfish aggression. All the peoples of the world are in effect partners in this interest, and for our own part we see very clearly that unless justice be done to others it will not be done to us. The program of the world's peace, therefore, is our program; and that program, the only possible program, as we see it, is this:

I. Open covenants of peace, openly arrived at, after which there shall be no private international understandings of any kind but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view.

II. Absolute freedom of navigation upon the seas, outside territorial waters, alike in peace and in war, except as the seas may be closed in whole or in part by international action for the enforcement of international covenants.

III. The removal, so far as possible, of all economic barriers and the establishment of an equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the peace and associating themselves for its maintenance.

IV. Adequate guarantees given and taken that national armaments will be reduced to the lowest point consistent with domestic safety.

V. A free, open-minded, and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims, based upon a strict observance of the principle that in determining all such questions of sovereignty the interests of the populations concerned must have equal weight with the equitable claims of the government whose title is to be determined.

VI. The evacuation of all Russian territory and such a settlement of all questions affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest cooperation of the other nations of the world in obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her own political development and national policy and assure her of a sincere welcome into the society of free nations under institutions of her own choosing; and, more than a welcome, assistance also of every kind that she may need and may herself desire. The treatment accorded Russia by her sister nations in the months to come will be the acid test of their good will, of their comprehension of her needs as distinguished from their own interests, and of their intelligent and unselfish sympathy.

VII. Belgium, the whole world will agree, must be evacuated and restored, without any attempt to limit the sovereignty which she enjoys in common with all other free nations. No other single act will serve as this will serve to restore confidence among the nations in the laws which they have themselves set and determined for the government of their relations with one another. Without this healing act the whole structure and validity of international law is forever impaired.

VIII. All French territory should be freed and the invaded portions restored, and the wrong done to France by Prussia in 1871 in the matter of Alsace-Lorraine, which has unsettled the peace of the world for nearly fifty years, should be righted, in order that peace may once more be made secure in the interest of all.

IX. A readjustment of the frontiers of Italy should be effected along clearly recognizable lines of nationality.

X. The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity to autonomous development.

XI. Rumania, Serbia, and Montenegro should be evacuated; occupied territories restored; Serbia accorded free and secure access to the sea; and the relations of the several Balkan states to one another determined by friendly counsel along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and international guarantees of the political and economic independence and territorial integrity of the several Balkan states should be entered into.

XII. The Turkish portion of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.

XIII. An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.

XIV. A general association of nations must be formed under specific covenants for the purpose of affording mutual guarantees of political independence and territorial integrity to great and small states alike.

In regard to these essential rectifications of wrong and assertions of right we feel ourselves to be intimate partners of all the governments and peoples associated together against the Imperialists. We cannot be separated in interest or divided in purpose. We stand together until the end. For such arrangements and covenants we are willing to fight and to continue to fight until they are achieved; but only because we wish the right to prevail and desire a just and stable peace such as can be secured only by removing the chief provocations to war, which this program does remove. We have no jealousy of German greatness, and there is nothing in this program that impairs it. We grudge her no achievement or distinction of learning or of pacific enterprise such as have made her record very bright and very enviable. We do not wish to injure her or to block in any way her legitimate influence or power. We do not wish to fight her either with arms or with hostile arrangements of trade if she is willing to associate herself with us and the other peace- loving nations of the world in covenants of justice and law and fair dealing. We wish her only to accept a place of equality among the peoples of the world, -- the new world in which we now live, -- instead of a place of mastery.

Neither do we presume to suggest to her any alteration or modification of her institutions. But it is necessary, we must frankly say, and necessary as a preliminary to any intelligent dealings with her on our part, that we should know whom her spokesmen speak for when they speak to us, whether for the Reichstag majority or for the military party and the men whose creed is imperial domination.

We have spoken now, surely, in terms too concrete to admit of any further doubt or question. An evident principle runs through the whole program I have outlined. It is the principle of justice to all peoples and nationalities, and their right to live on equal terms of liberty and safety with one another, whether they be strong or weak.

Unless this principle be made its foundation no part of the structure of international justice can stand. The people of the United States could act upon no other principle; and to the vindication of this principle they are ready to devote their lives, their honor, and everything they possess. The moral climax of this the culminating and final war for human liberty has come, and they are ready to put their own strength, their own highest purpose, their own integrity and devotion to the test.
 
Wozza said:
The wealthy landowners of Britain paid taxes.

Yes, they paid taxes. And they were represented in the Parliament which imposed those taxes. American colonists were not represented in said Parliament, yet said Parliament was imposing taxes upon them. Thus the rub.

Wozza said:
Washington would indeed have been executed. But why should someone should be expelled from their home for not supporting a violent, rebellious political faction?

Because they lost. To the victors go the spoils...or as Celtic chieftain Brennus once told the Romans, "Woe to the defeated."
 
Faeelin said:
Okay, maybe they'd have a rich cultural life. But what makes you think it would be cultural life that would be, in our eyes, pleasing?

Speaking as the descendent of French Hugenots who fled to Britain, I'm not enamored with the idea of the Sun King ruling Europe.
There are no certainties when you create a major POD far enough in the past.

IMHO, the cultural basis for the modern western world were laid in France and England in the 17th century: I would not expect that anyone can negate this. It is amazing that this happened in a century more than plagued with ferocious wars (most of them religion wars) and the first beheading of a king.
Imagine if it might have been greater than what happened in OTL.

Religious persecutions are always nasty: OTL, they happened everywhere in Europe (and the German example is certainly much worse thatn what happened in France). OTOH, if France wants to get and hold the United Provinces they have to change their attitude, and refrain from religious persecutions. I've always had a lot of consideration for Richelieu's intelligence: it's a pity he did not (or could not) understand this.

However, even if the French triumph is built on persecution of minorities, it would not be substantially different from OTL. Different butchers, but the same victims. This does not a-priori deny the possibility of a much better today's world in TTL.
 

Gremlin

Banned
Vote Brittania!

I believe that had we somehow held on to our former colonial holdings for a longer post war period then we could have seen a more orderly transition to independence of said colonies.
Even at the time of the retreat of the empire it was clear that freedom and independence would come - factor in human rights etc... and then you see that the POD for a still intact empire governed by the old rules is not on - I see a gradual scaling down of the empire into a stronger more robust commonwealth of nations equal to the EU.
Less revoulution in Africa and poor post-independence governance, no genocide.......more international cricket?
 
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