The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

[Eckener]

Some of the big fish like Buchanan would have went with DC and some of the other nuked cities but sadly for the US there were plenty of little Buchanans who were still around after 7/4/71. So does DC, Philadelphia ,Boston and a half dozen others mean 9 cities in total ? Is there an official list ? Looking forward to the American tour which one assumes will include some particularly stomach churning areas of the South. A big part of this story that I think you are successfully continuing is that as much as this world is slowly changing for the better it still has very far to go,,,,

Forgot to reply to this! My bad.

Cities I've listed as nuked on July 3/4 1971 - Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Seattle, Toronto, Ottawa, and San Francisco I'd already listed and made "official." Maybe KC or Denver as well?

And yes, that's part of why I always felt "wanting" with this story, since, besides the brief trip by Suzanna Weiss to London, the story is so narrowly set in Berlin (which is unusual for HT, since most of his books have these world-spanning casts).

 

[MaxGerke01]

Forgot to reply to this! My bad.

Cities I've listed as nuked on July 3/4 1971 - Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Seattle, Toronto, Ottawa, and San Francisco I'd already listed and made "official." Maybe KC or Denver as well ?

My preference would be 1 more midwestern and 1 more western city to give the destruction a coast to coast but decidedly non southern scope so KC and Denver or KC and Vegas ?

 

[MaxGerke01]

So for everyone's info this guy wasn't an American but nevertheless a contemporary who likely would have had a much more influential role ITTL. Perhaps he was a leading proponent of the Nazi racial policies being brought to the US and Canada as they were to the UK ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pitt-Rivers

BTW his two oldest sons born in 1917 and 1919 could have had interesting roles ITTL as well...

 

[MaxGerke01]

So these are the opening credits from the new HBO miniseries based on the Philip Roth AH novel The Plot Against America where Charles A Lindbergh is elected president in 1940. Since that also happens ITTL -under different circumstances-I thought it might add a little flavor to the thread….

Also this clip about Lindbergh and America First-

 

[Eckener]

I am super excited about this show, and watched the first episode Monday night.

Interestingly enough, Lindberg gets elected ITTL at the same time as in Plot Against America, the election of 1940 (granted, this time going up against someone other than Roosevelt, who died in 1932 before he became president), and will be in office from 1941-1949. I am not sure whether or not the anti-Semitic aspect of Lindberg is played up too much in the show or not, but I did not have that baked into TTL.

 

[MaxGerke01]

I am super excited about this show, and watched the first episode Monday night.

Interestingly enough, Lindberg gets elected ITTL at the same time as in Plot Against America, the election of 1940 (granted, this time going up against someone other than Roosevelt, who died in 1932 before he became president), and will be in office from 1941-1949. I am not sure whether or not the anti-Semitic aspect of Lindberg is played up too much in the show or not, but I did not have that baked into TTL.

I have always thought that Lindbergh's anti- Semitism has been downplayed to his benefit. To the extent that he is known he is still known primarily for the Spirit of St Louis-perhaps there is a big memorial to him there ITTL ? Truthfully he had much more influence over a larger number of people as the head of America First . It was Pearl Harbor and Lindbergh's embrace of war with Japan that allowed him and many other American friends of Hitler to rehabilitate their rightfully tarnished images at the time. When Lindbergh and the others like him had the chance to do the right thing and be on the right side of history for the sake of being on the right side of history they failed the test and we should remember that....

 

[MaxGerke01]

So what about national holidays ? Since it has the same date as the nuclear attacks is the Fourth of July still celebrated or even acknowledged ? Is Thanksgiving still a big holiday ? What about Christmas and Easter? Memorial Day ? Are there more civic type holidays like MLK Day or Presidents Day that acknowledge a certain office or person - ie Charles Lindbergh or Strom Thurmonds birthday ? Any others ?

 

[Eckener]

So what about national holidays ? Since it has the same date as the nuclear attacks is the Fourth of July still celebrated or even acknowledged ? Is Thanksgiving still a big holiday ? What about Christmas and Easter? Memorial Day ? Are there more civic type holidays like MLK Day or Presidents Day that acknowledge a certain office or person - ie Charles Lindbergh or Strom Thurmonds birthday ? Any others ?

Oh! This is an interesting question and would love to hear your own thoughts.

I could see the Fourth of July being retained, just heavily "filtered" through Nazi lingo after Thurmond takes over. Also remember that July 4th was when the Nazis launched the attack, so the holiday has definitely been "colored" by those events.

I could also see a holiday celebrating Thurmond after he dies (his birthday is December 5th).

Turtledove never had the Nazis become vehemently anti-Christian (unlike MITHC), so I don't see Christmas or Easter being done away with in the USA (though with Christmas in Germany being influenced by "yuletide" I could see that having an effect, but I don't see the holiday being done away with).

Memorial Day is interesting because the holiday we know now didn't fully come into formation until 1971 OTL, having evolved from a day to remember the fallen in the US Civil War and then into the larger remembrance of WWI victims, it didn't become standardized until after WWII. With the US not getting involved ITTL, Memorial Day might remain on May 30th (as opposed to the last Monday in May). I still think it would continue in some form. Possibly taking on the Nazi view of "Helden Tag" (to celebrate the military and heroism as opposed to remembering the fallen).

There might also be some sort of "Armed Forces Day"

Celebration of Confederate heritage?

Adolf Hitler's birthday? (I'm not sure about this one since the Nazis don't "directly" rule the USA).

 

[MaxGerke01]

Oh! This is an interesting question and would love to hear your own thoughts.

I could see the Fourth of July being retained, just heavily "filtered" through Nazi lingo after Thurmond takes over. Also remember that July 4th was when the Nazis launched the attack, so the holiday has definitely been "colored" by those events.

I could also see a holiday celebrating Thurmond after he dies (his birthday is December 5th).

Turtledove never had the Nazis become vehemently anti-Christian (unlike MITHC), so I don't see Christmas or Easter being done away with in the USA (though with Christmas in Germany being influenced by "yuletide" I could see that having an effect, but I don't see the holiday being done away with).

Memorial Day is interesting because the holiday we know now didn't fully come into formation until 1971 OTL, having evolved from a day to remember the fallen in the US Civil War and then into the larger remembrance of WWI victims, it didn't become standardized until after WWII. With the US not getting involved ITTL, Memorial Day might remain on May 30th (as opposed to the last Monday in May). I still think it would continue in some form. Possibly taking on the Nazi view of "Helden Tag" (to celebrate the military and heroism as opposed to remembering the fallen).

There might also be some sort of "Armed Forces Day"

Celebration of Confederate heritage?

Adolf Hitler's birthday? (I'm not sure about this one since the Nazis don't "directly" rule the USA).

With Hitler's birthday being on April 20 and the Lexington and Concord battles on April 19 and given how many far right and violent attacks have been related to those 2 days OTL I could easily see Hitlers bday and maybe something uniquely American being celebrated on the 19th or 20th along with it- Patriots Day meets Furhertag ? I think that Thanksgiving is still probably a fairly big holiday as its widely celebrated OTL with its mixture of secular, religious and nationalist themes? It might be the holiday the Germans most approve of. Also besides Thurmond and Lindbergh any presidents who had openly racist and or pro -Southern views are dusted off and placed in positions of prominence so Washington and Jefferson as slave owners, Andrew Jackson for obvious reasons. Also Pierce, Buchanan, Andrew Johnson and Woodrow Wilson. I could see some type of Memorial /Armed Forces Day that has a heavy emphasis on the Confederate cause and puts it and their Civil War dead on equal if not higher footing than those who died in other wars

So for all of the talk about American money being paid to Germany -which people are featured on the currency bills and coins ? John C Calhoun must be on something...

Also we know that American greasy spoons are popular in Germany but is German ,Italian or Japanese food popular in the US ?

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

One person who could spell an easy pawn in the post war era is Michael Huffington. Born in 1947 in Dallas, Texas he moved to Fresno/ Tulare, California, establishing himself as a Reagan style Republican in the 1980s. In 1994, he attempted to run for governor. It wasn't until 1998 that it was revealed that he was bisexual, and had been hiding it for years. In the TL, consider him as the "face of the Party", but being secretly blackmailed by party leaders:

Michael Huffington - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[MaxGerke01]

Im missing this-anything new soon ?

 

[Eckener]

Im missing this-anything new soon ?

So my schedule has been all out of whack since I am technically working from home but there hasn't been much to do, but also trying to stay on top of that and grad school stuff. I *should* be able to have a lot of time to write after tomorrow, so maybe something by this Friday or the weekend, at least that's my goal.

 

[MaxGerke01]

So my schedule has been all out of whack since I am technically working from home but there hasn't been much to do, but also trying to stay on top of that and grad school stuff. I *should* be able to have a lot of time to write after tomorrow, so maybe something by this Friday or the weekend, at least that's my goal.

Good new In the meantime any thoughts about

With Hitler's birthday being on April 20 and the Lexington and Concord battles on April 19 and given how many far right and violent attacks have been related to those 2 days OTL I could easily see Hitlers bday and maybe something uniquely American being celebrated on the 19th or 20th along with it- Patriots Day meets Furhertag ? I think that Thanksgiving is still probably a fairly big holiday as its widely celebrated OTL with its mixture of secular, religious and nationalist themes? It might be the holiday the Germans most approve of. Also besides Thurmond and Lindbergh any presidents who had openly racist and or pro -Southern vie ws are dusted off and placed in positions of prominence so Washington and Jefferson as slave owners, Andrew Jackson for obvious reasons. Also Pierce, Buchanan, Andrew Johnson and Woodrow Wilson. I could see some type of Memorial /Armed Forces Day that has a heavy emphasis on the Confederate cause and puts it and their Civil War dead on equal if not higher footing than those who died in other wars

So for all of the talk about American money being paid to Germany -which people are featured on the currency bills and coins ? John C Calhoun must be on something...

Also we know that American greasy spoons are popular in Germany but is German ,Italian or Japanese food popular in the US ?

this ?

 

[Eckener]

Good new In the meantime any thoughts about ... this ?

So, I'm not sure that the American's would actually celebrate Hitler's birthday directly. The US is in this weird spot where it is part of the Germanic Empire but not part of the Reich proper. There might be parties and things held by some German-American organizations, and probably galas in Omaha at the Imperial Embassy and elsewhere, but maybe it isn't a formal official holiday.

Thanksgiving definitely continues, albeit through a new lens for sure.

I also think that southern states would likely put greater glory and emphasis on the Confederacy, but I don't think you would see this be projected outside that region too much. Maybe Lee and Stonewall Jackson get rehabilitated into national heroes to some extent. There's going to be a dance between glorifying the racist elements of the Confederacy while simultaneously downplaying the fact that they did rebel against the Federal Government.

Currency....
$1 = Washington
$2 = Jefferson
$5 = ... Lincoln would be dropped I think. Calhoun might be here?
$10 = Hamilton?
$20 = Jackson (for sure)
$50 = Grant....hmm. Maybe replaced by Lee?
$100 = Franklin...maybe. He'd been on there for quite some time by that point.
$500 = went out of print in the 1940s, recalled in the 1960s, Had William McKinnley. I see these getting reissued as inflation skyrockets and there is a greater need for higher denominations. Maybe this is where Lucky Lindy goes?

Coins:
1¢ = Drop Lincoln. Either return to the Indian Head Cent, or an American Eagle
5¢ = Jefferson?
10¢ = Goddess of Liberty?
25¢ = Washington
50¢ = "Walking Liberty" was the last design from OTL (after that was Franklin, then Kennedy).
1$ = Morgan/Peace designs.

The more I think about it, I could see the coins all going to new designs to support concepts of the state, so instead of having any former Leaders on it (save maybe Washington on the Quarter..that tradition goes back a long ways), the coins have symbols like the eagle, the torch, etc.

As for restaurants...
- I could see places near German bases having a chain of German food restaurants taking off and being regionally successful.
- In California, where the Japanese have a stronger presence, I could see certain Japanese eateries taking off.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Currency....
$1 = Washington
$2 = Jefferson
$5 = ... Lincoln would be dropped I think. Calhoun might be here?
$10 = Hamilton?
$20 = Jackson (for sure)
$50 = Grant....hmm. Maybe replaced by Lee?
$100 = Franklin...maybe. He'd been on there for quite some time by that point.
$500 = went out of print in the 1940s, recalled in the 1960s, Had William McKinnley. I see these getting reissued as inflation skyrockets and there is a greater need for higher denominations. Maybe this is where Lucky Lindy goes?

Coins:
1¢ = Drop Lincoln. Either return to the Indian Head Cent, or an American Eagle
5¢ = Jefferson?
10¢ = Goddess of Liberty?
25¢ = Washington
50¢ = "Walking Liberty" was the last design from OTL (after that was Franklin, then Kennedy).
1$ = Morgan/Peace designs.

The more I think about it, I could see the coins all going to new designs to support concepts of the state, so instead of having any former Leaders on it (save maybe Washington on the Quarter..that tradition goes back a long ways), the coins have symbols like the eagle, the torch, etc.

As for restaurants...
- I could see places near German bases having a chain of German food restaurants taking off and being regionally successful.
- In California, where the Japanese have a stronger presence, I could see certain Japanese eateries taking off.

I think in a USA where Confederate figures are being rehabilitated that Franklin, Hamilton , Lincoln and Grant would be gone and not just because they supported a strong national government -as did Washington and Jackson- but because they were all anti Slavery so Calhoun on the 5 , Buchanan on the 10, Lee on the 50 and Roger B Taney on the 100 ? I would also say that in this US Lincoln's face (and Theodore Roosevelts) on Mt Rushmore would both be in jeopardy-with Lincoln replaced by Jackson and Roosevelt by Lindbergh or Thurmond ?
Also since Italian food was popular in the US prior to WW3 it would remain but things like soul food, and Jewish delis banned and Chinese frowned upon ?

 

[Eckener]

I think in a USA where Confederate figures are being rehabilitated that Franklin, Hamilton , Lincoln and Grant would be gone and not just because they supported a strong national government -as did Washington and Jackson- but because they were all anti Slavery so Calhoun on the 5 , Buchanan on the 10, Lee on the 50 and Roger B Taney on the 100 ? I would also say that in this US Lincoln's face (and Theodore Roosevelts) on Mt Rushmore would both be in jeopardy-with Lincoln replaced by Jackson and Roosevelt by Lindbergh or Thurmond ?
Also since Italian food was popular in the US prior to WW3 it would remain but things like soul food, and Jewish delis banned and Chinese frowned upon ?

I think the original founders would stay (so Franklin and Hamilton). Granted, I think that a lot of the other iconography on the banknotes would be much more overtly fascist in nature to show the "new order" post-WWIII

I think with regards to Rushmore, Lincoln would be in greater Jeopardy than Roosevelt. That said, they might let it alone entirely, or replace Lincoln with Lindberg Thurmond.

I don't think Jewish delis would be "banned" so much as just die out. Soul food would likely face a similar fate, though some of it would linger on as it has become synonymous with the larger "southern comfort food" and has been removed from its cultural roots. I think Chinese food would still be okay, or supplanted by Japanese food. And yes, Italian food would probably keep it's OTL popularity.

 

[Grey Wolf]

My dad really enjoyed that book

 

[MaxGerke01]

I think the original founders would stay (so Franklin and Hamilton). Granted, I think that a lot of the other iconography on the banknotes would be much more overtly fascist in nature to show the "new order" post-WWIII

I think with regards to Rushmore, Lincoln would be in greater Jeopardy than Roosevelt. That said, they might let it alone entirely, or replace Lincoln with Lindberg Thurmond.

I think the original Southern foundling fathers like Washington and Jefferson would be safe but Franklin and Hamilton could be in jeopardy from the new regime especialy if they could be replaced by the likes of James Buchanan and Roger B Taney who were much more pro Southern/Confederate and overtly white supremacist than the others, Also I think its very unlikely that the new regime is secure enough with its own ideology to leave Mt Rushmore alone. Lincoln would almost certainly be gone especially if he was replaced on the currency by Calhoun and considering what he stood for but Theodore Roosevelt who invited Booker T Washington to the White House among other things didnt present the right image either, Replacing them both with different but more ideologically compatible 19th and 20th century presidents would to the new regime be the easier option probably....

 

[MaxGerke01]

Some thread related reading... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Order_(Nazism)#Hitler's_plans_for_North_America

 

[traveller76]

I see Southern cuisine like fried chicken and barbecue being sampled and copied by both Japan and Germany. There also may by American diners that take over from deli's.