The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

I bet Martin Luther King and Malcolm X might have different and interesting alternate paths ib this timeline ie both are alive in the 1970s and survive WW3 .

Also perhaps part of what gets rid of Thurmond is a revelation that he had violated his own regimes odious racial laws by keeping this person alive and hidden ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essie_Mae_Washington-Williams

Hmm. I'll have to think about that, with regards to MLK and Malcolm X. Definitely something to keep in mind.
As for Thurmond's children...I could see him letting the SS kill them to cover that up and bury all traces.

I was planning on Thurmond stepping down and not "running" in the 1988 election due to health reasons. But maybe it could be that behind the scenes party members forced his early retirement. That would be more interesting.

I can also see David Duke emerging as the Kennedy analog for the 1992 election.

Also consider Reverend Charles Manson, who in OTL tried to trigger a "racial holy war" from 1970-1975,...

Kennedy analog in the 1992 election?

I could see personalities like John Singlaub or John Crommelin partaking in a junta-esque effort to hold the country together.

I'll have to look into them.
 
I feel like George Lincoln Rockwell would be a high-ranking figure in occupied America. Obvious choice I know, but there is a good reason for that.

William Luther Pierce (OTL author of The Turner Diaries) would also be a likely part of the Nazi American government. He had a background in physics so perhaps he would be in charge of the Department of Energy or something.

I could see Arthur J. Jones as a collaborator figure sometime in the 1990's or early 2000's. Maybe he'd be VP to Duke-good regional balance to have a Midwestern Nazi get a chance leading the puppet regime considering southern politicos likely will get a disproportionate number of terms in the Nazi-aligned government just based off where Nazi sympathies are the strongest.

A dark horse option for a Nazi collaborator regime could be Ted Bundy. There's no real indication of him having Nazi leanings OTL, but given he seemed to harbor political ambitions, the beginning of the German occupation around the time of his real-life murders and the fact he was a remorseless sociopath who wanted to murder people, Bundy very plausibly could've become an eager early supporter of the German-backed government's genocide. Him getting involved early could lead the Nazis to prop up his political ambitions to ultimately lead the American puppet state and even if he kills Aryan women if he's connected enough the Nazis totally would let him get away with it and cover it up.

Maybe the list could be:
Strom Thurmond/Lester Maddox 1971-1981
George Lincoln Rockwell/John Rarick 1981-1989
Lester Maddox/Ted Bundy 1989-1997
Ted Bundy/Arthur Jones 1997-2005
David Duke/Don Black 2005-2013

After Duke it might be the case the US gets to elect a non-Nazi candidate as Buckliger’s reforms take root but it’s also possible they insist on keeping the elections restricted for America. Also by 2012 it’s very possible for people who in OTL weren’t Nazis to embrace fascism as the first post-occupation generation reaches political maturity. Any politically-minded child of the 1960’s who would be Aryan by Nazi rules likely would be fascist by 2012 and could be Duke’s successor.
 
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MaxGerke01

Banned
Another thing to consider is that the book states that thankfully there are some Jewish and black survivors in North America. Given the plot of the book we see how that's possible for Jews but what aboot the black survivors ? One would think that especially in the South it would have to be something way more elaborate than this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test
 
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I feel like George Lincoln Rockwell would be a high-ranking figure in occupied America. Obvious choice I know, but there is a good reason for that.

William Luther Pierce (OTL author of The Turner Diaries) would also be a likely part of the Nazi American government. He had a background in physics so perhaps he would be in charge of the Department of Energy or something.

I could see Arthur J. Jones as a collaborator figure sometime in the 1990's or early 2000's. Maybe he'd be VP to Duke-good regional balance to have a Midwestern Nazi get a chance leading the puppet regime considering southern politicos likely will get a disproportionate number of terms in the Nazi-aligned government just based off where Nazi sympathies are the strongest.

A dark horse option for a Nazi collaborator regime could be Ted Bundy. There's no real indication of him having Nazi leanings OTL, but given he seemed to harbor political ambitions, the beginning of the German occupation around the time of his real-life murders and the fact he was a remorseless sociopath who wanted to murder people, Bundy very plausibly could've become an eager early supporter of the German-backed government's genocide. Him getting involved early could lead the Nazis to prop up his political ambitions to ultimately lead the American puppet state and even if he kills Aryan women if he's connected enough the Nazis totally would let him get away with it and cover it up.

Maybe the list could be:
Strom Thurmond/Lester Maddox 1971-1981
George Lincoln Rockwell/John Rarick 1981-1989
Lester Maddox/Ted Bundy 1989-1997
Ted Bundy/Arthur Jones 1997-2005
David Duke/Don Black 2005-2013

After Duke it might be the case the US gets to elect a non-Nazi candidate as Buckliger’s reforms take root but it’s also possible they insist on keeping the elections restricted for America. Also by 2012 it’s very possible for people who in OTL weren’t Nazis to embrace fascism as the first post-occupation generation reaches political maturity. Any politically-minded child of the 1960’s who would be Aryan by Nazi rules likely would be fascist by 2012 and could be Duke’s successor.

These are some great suggestions! I need to do some checking on all the people suggested first before I commit anything to "cannon." The main thing to consider here is the butterflies. YES, the USA remains independent until 1971, but I'm really thinking that anyone born after 1940, or 1945 at the latest, has a good chance of being butterflied away. Remember, in the book, America stayed completely neutral in WWII, so anyone of the Baby Boomer generation has likely been removed from history or significantly altered.

As for when America elects a non-fascist, I was wanting to set that into my potential sequel story, which would be set in 2020. Here are my thoughts on why the delay:
By the 2000s, as you've pointed out, many white Americans likely would have "assimilated" under fascist rule, though not all. And by this time period, you'd have the first generation that was born and raised after America's defeat coming of age and into the seats of power, so there will be some reluctance to chunk the fascist system that was imposed. On top of that, America has a home-grown racist element, and while they likely go along with the Nazi's pogroms, they would also likely be chafing under the Reich's military boot and wanting to "reclaim" what was rightfully theirs.

That said, when Buckliger's reforms get going in 2011-2012, the ruling party in the US (thinking of renaming it the Freedom & Justice Party as opposed to my earlier idea of "Continental Party,") will still try and keep a tight reign on things. On the one hand, they'll open up *some* things, mainly to pump up American greatness and allow more open criticism of the occupation that is seen as an affront to the American Way of Life, but the FJP will not be on board with actual democratic reforms at first. Building pressure as news of continued reforms in the Reich trickle out (or in some cases come pouring out) will result in the true legalization of genuine opposition parties that will manage to wrangle control of the House in 2016, but the FJP holds on to the Senate and the Presidency (likely through shady means). However, by 2020, there is an organized effort to really change things, with many people expecting a non-fascist to win the Presidency for the first time since 1968.

I guess Bo Gritz could be a Secretary of Defense, or possibly the head of some security apparatus?

As I said above, I have to make a list of people to check out.

Another thing to consider is that the book states that thankfully there are some Jewish and black survivors in North America. Given the plot of the book, we see how that's possible for Jews but what about the black survivors? One would think that especially in the South it would have to be something way more elaborate than this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test

I always wondered about that too! As you said, Jews hiding is somewhat easy. For one thing, I am sure that by 1971 substantiated rumors of what happened to European Jews likely would have ended up circulating in the USA, so that when the unthinkable happens, there is already a sort of "underground railroad" in place to at least get some people into hiding of some sort, or else perhaps to Mexico or South America.

But as for African Americans....that would be way harder. I think you would have people who could "pass" trying to do so, and with the country being as big and as mobile as it is, it is conceivable that someone with lighter skin could have uprooted themselves and try to pass as white in some other part of the USA where nobody knows them.

As cringe-worthy as it is, I could also see some blacks being kept as slaves *shudders.*
 
Regarding blacks I think there would be mixed views on their fate among the Omaha regime (‘Omaha America’ works as ‘Vichy France’ does for Nazi America as that is the postwar capital IIRC). Omaha America’s Dixiecrats might be more pragmatic and want to keep blacks around as a low-tier workforce-‘keep them in their place’ rather than cleanse them from the country completely. On the other hand the guys like Rockwell are more keen on purifying the country completely of non-Aryans. The end result could be the ‘final solution’ in Omaha America could be less thorough than it was in Eastern Europe and there could be black people who are spared to serve as a caste of laborers and sharecroppers. Besides that I’m sure some would flee into hiding-there’s a lot of empty areas of the country and I doubt the SS or Omaha America’s equivalent would be able to hunt down every black refugee hiding in the Rockies, the Mojave, the Everglades or the Appalachian backwoods.
 
Regarding blacks I think there would be mixed views on their fate among the Omaha regime (‘Omaha America’ works as ‘Vichy France’ does for Nazi America as that is the postwar capital IIRC). Omaha America’s Dixiecrats might be more pragmatic and want to keep blacks around as a low-tier workforce-‘keep them in their place’ rather than cleanse them from the country completely. On the other hand the guys like Rockwell are more keen on purifying the country completely of non-Aryans. The end result could be the ‘final solution’ in Omaha America could be less thorough than it was in Eastern Europe and there could be black people who are spared to serve as a caste of laborers and sharecroppers. Besides that I’m sure some would flee into hiding-there’s a lot of empty areas of the country and I doubt the SS or Omaha America’s equivalent would be able to hunt down every black refugee hiding in the Rockies, the Mojave, the Everglades or the Appalachian backwoods.

You probablly are on to something there. The desire for a low-tier workforce would definitely clash with the "purist" vision many Nazis would share.

So, as far as people that might be involved with the American fascist/puppet government, the following suggestions were born after 1945 and will probably not make an appearance:
  • Ted Bundy - (1946-)

  • Arthur Jones - (1948)

  • David Duke - (1950)

  • Don Black - (1953)
Now, I also have some questions about George Lincoln Rockwell. I get how that feels like a natural choice, and yes, he was born in 1918 so he's still alive in 1971, at least in theory. However, he's not a southerner, and he doesn't seem to have become radicalized until after WWII and his own military service. So, I'm not saying he wouldn't still be a Nazi, just saying it's plausible his life goes a completely different direction.

Another interesting thing, it is highly likely in this alternate that both MLK and Malcom X would still be alive. They both died mid-to-late 60s, and with things going differently they could easily still be alive when the Nazis invade in 1971. Obviously they'd both be near the top of the Nazis lists. I think it likely that they would lead a significant resistance movement - let's be real, the early years of the occupation, possibly up into the early 1980s, are likely to be messy, and that's putting things very mildly.
 
You probablly are on to something there. The desire for a low-tier workforce would definitely clash with the "purist" vision many Nazis would share.

So, as far as people that might be involved with the American fascist/puppet government, the following suggestions were born after 1945 and will probably not make an appearance:
  • Ted Bundy - (1946-)

  • Arthur Jones - (1948)

  • David Duke - (1950)

  • Don Black - (1953)
Now, I also have some questions about George Lincoln Rockwell. I get how that feels like a natural choice, and yes, he was born in 1918 so he's still alive in 1971, at least in theory. However, he's not a southerner, and he doesn't seem to have become radicalized until after WWII and his own military service. So, I'm not saying he wouldn't still be a Nazi, just saying it's plausible his life goes a completely different direction.

Another interesting thing, it is highly likely in this alternate that both MLK and Malcom X would still be alive. They both died mid-to-late 60s, and with things going differently they could easily still be alive when the Nazis invade in 1971. Obviously they'd both be near the top of the Nazis lists. I think it likely that they would lead a significant resistance movement - let's be real, the early years of the occupation, possibly up into the early 1980s, are likely to be messy, and that's putting things very mildly.

Fair enough re: Rockwell (though I think he still very likely would develop Nazi sympathies and I thought he was Virginian).

Actually another dark horse option who was born pre-departure has come to my mind: Lyndon LaRouche. Now he began in OTL as a far-left figure but his brand of far-leftism over time horseshoed its way towards far-right sentiments and given he jumped left amidst the Cold War OTL I could see him instead embracing American Nazism rather than Trotskyism on grounds of contrarianism plus his anti-British beliefs and anti-Semitic leanings. I could easily see him ITTL joining the German-American Bund or a similar group in lieu of the radical leftist ones he joined OTL. Especially since the Axis victory could discredit Marxism to a 20-something LaRouche and that timeframe was when he developed his beliefs.

I think if MLK is still alive he’d end up in a similar situation as Gandhi in The Last Article (another Turtledove story that might actually be canon with this one as it has the Nazis occupy India)-that is attempt a passive resistance campaign only to be crushed brutally and executed. Malcolm X (who might stay Malcolm Little ITTL) would probably fare a bit better-I’d expect the Nation of Islam and Black Panther types to survive longer than the pacifists via insurgency and guerrilla warfare. He or a like-minded figure like Eldridge Cleaver or Huey Newton or a radicalized member of MLK’s wing of the civil rights movement like John Lewis could end up similar to Abba Kovner in The New Order: Last Days of Europe. That is leading a long-lasting insurgency of the oppressed and eventually warping from seeking liberation from the Nazis to retribution on white America for historic wrongs culminating in an American Holocaust on black people.
 
Conceptual revised list:
Strom Thurmond/Lester Maddox 1971-1981
George Lincoln Rockwell/Lester Maddox 1981-1989
Lester Maddox/William Luther Pierce 1989-1997
Lyndon LaRouche/Bo Gritz 1997-2005
David Jones/Teddy Black 2005-2013*

*Fictional characters with names inspired by Bundy, Jones, Black and Duke, basically placeholders
 
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MaxGerke01

Banned
  • Another thing to consider is what the Nazis did to mixed race people in Germany OTLhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_Bastard. They would likely be considered the biggest threat to the odious racial theory and in a way more targeted for elimination or at the very least sterilization. Ironically the darker more black looking blacks are more likely to survive ?
 
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Another "dark horse" puppet could be Nixon as a result of his conduct IOTL, TBH.

I could see Nixon opportunistically going along with the Nazis, but he probably would only get that chance in a MITHC-type Nazi victory where they take over just before he begins entering politics. Otherwise, he is going to have already positioned himself as anti-Nazi to too great an extent to be trusted by the Nazis and may already be dead if he was a part of the wartime government or served in a pre-1971 administration in any capacity. An ex-President Nixon might be a helpful mouthpiece for the regime if he urges cooperation over resistance but it'd depend on how his career developed before World War III broke out.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
ITTL The Philadelphia Experiment is a best selling book and movie about the black prisoners who were deliberately sent into radioactive Philadelphia in 1976 to retrieve the remains of the Liberty Bell and study the long term effects of radiation exposure.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
The USA & Canada through WWIII
  • FDR dies prior to his nomination, and John Nance Garner beats Hoover in 1932, and again in 1936.

  • Charles Lindbergh (R) faces off against Al Smith (D) in 1936 and wins, and is reelected in 1940 and 1944 running a successful campaign of keeping America out of WWII.

  • After two are used in the Pacific in 1971, Germany decides to act decisively.

  • Only July 3-4, 1971, Washington, DC, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Seattle, Toronto, Ottawa, and San Francisco are all nuked by the Reich, in addition to Sydney.
So in 1936 was it Garner or Lindbergh ? Also where and by whom were the nukes used and how did Japan react to the Reich nuking Sydney ?
 
Oh something I had as my personal head canon: I suspected that the Third World War began because Barry Goldwater managed to become president and as he is a hawk of Jewish descent the Nazis flipped out and either went to war right away or tried to assassinate him thus triggering war.

The same principle could work with someone like Jacob Javits as well.
 
A major difference between this setting and that of MITHC is that the defeat and subsequent occupation occurred in the 1970s, not the 1940s. Racial equality would have made progress that would have been roughly similar to OTL. This would have meant greater resistance to the round-ups and murders of African Americans. But it still would go through and you would still see US whites helping, some quite eagerly I'd imagine, those who'd so recently lost the desegregation fight being able to dish out a might reversal. I would also imagine that insurgencies would have been common, but this is also why I see the Reich trying to work with "homegrown" elements instead of just installing a foreign occupation apparatus directly. Keep the forms of the old American system and pervert it to the Nazis' purposes.
I've thought over this, and have come to the conclusion that I disagree with your thoughts on civil rights in this world.

In the West, the civil rights movements came after World War II, and especially the Holocaust, exposed a huge hypocrisy in how the US and Europe conceived of themselves when a European state could do something so monstrous. In this world, the Holocaust would be covered up, and might would have made right. Here, autocracy has been 'proven' to work to the West, so that's the direction America will go. You'll likely see 1920s levels of racial violence continue into the present day of the novel.
 
Fair enough re: Rockwell (though I think he still very likely would develop Nazi sympathies and I thought he was Virginian).

Actually another dark horse option who was born pre-departure has come to my mind: Lyndon LaRouche. Now he began in OTL as a far-left figure but his brand of far-leftism over time horseshoed its way towards far-right sentiments and given he jumped left amidst the Cold War OTL I could see him instead embracing American Nazism rather than Trotskyism on grounds of contrarianism plus his anti-British beliefs and anti-Semitic leanings. I could easily see him ITTL joining the German-American Bund or a similar group in lieu of the radical leftist ones he joined OTL. Especially since the Axis victory could discredit Marxism to a 20-something LaRouche and that timeframe was when he developed his beliefs.

I think if MLK is still alive he’d end up in a similar situation as Gandhi in The Last Article (another Turtledove story that might actually be canon with this one as it has the Nazis occupy India)-that is attempt a passive resistance campaign only to be crushed brutally and executed. Malcolm X (who might stay Malcolm Little ITTL) would probably fare a bit better-I’d expect the Nation of Islam and Black Panther types to survive longer than the pacifists via insurgency and guerrilla warfare. He or a like-minded figure like Eldridge Cleaver or Huey Newton or a radicalized member of MLK’s wing of the civil rights movement like John Lewis could end up similar to Abba Kovner in The New Order: Last Days of Europe. That is leading a long-lasting insurgency of the oppressed and eventually warping from seeking liberation from the Nazis to retribution on white America for historic wrongs culminating in an American Holocaust on black people.

Hmm. Not sure I'm sold on LaRouche becoming that guy. It's possible, but I'm not sure. I'll have to think about it.

You're right on I think via what happens with MLK and Malcom X. I think it is likely that small cells of hidden blacks would strike out and attack. And I definitely see their motive switching from liberation to retribution.

Conceptual revised list:
Strom Thurmond/Lester Maddox 1971-1981
George Lincoln Rockwell/Lester Maddox 1981-1989
Lester Maddox/William Luther Pierce 1989-1997
Lyndon LaRouche/Bo Gritz 1997-2005
David Jones/Teddy Black 2005-2013*

*Fictional characters with names inspired by Bundy, Jones, Black and Duke, basically placeholders

As I said above, not sure about LaRouche yet. Also not sure I want to have such short presidencies. My initial thought was having Thurmond in office until 1989, and then maybe only one or two presidents between him and this pending 2020 election. 22nd Amendment isn't a thing ITTL.

  • Another thing to consider is what the Nazis did to mixed race people in Germany OTLhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_Bastard. They would likely be considered the biggest threat to the odious racial theory and in a way more targeted for elimination or at the very least sterilization. Ironically the darker more black looking blacks are more likely to survive ?

This occurred to me as well. I could definitely see those of mixed race being targeted differently than those who aren't and visibly look darker.

I could see Nixon opportunistically going along with the Nazis, but he probably would only get that chance in a MITHC-type Nazi victory where they take over just before he begins entering politics. Otherwise, he is going to have already positioned himself as anti-Nazi to too great an extent to be trusted by the Nazis and may already be dead if he was a part of the wartime government or served in a pre-1971 administration in any capacity. An ex-President Nixon might be a helpful mouthpiece for the regime if he urges cooperation over resistance but it'd depend on how his career developed before World War III broke out.

Yeah can't see Nixon being involved here in the post-war regime. As you say, if it was an occupation that started in the 1940s a la MITHC, that's one thing. But an occupation starting in the 70s, not as likely.

ITTL The Philadelphia Experiment is a best selling book and movie about the black prisoners who were deliberately sent into radioactive Philadelphia in 1976 to retrieve the remains of the Liberty Bell and study the long term effects of radiation exposure.

Chilling

So in 1936 was it Garner or Lindbergh ? Also where and by whom were the nukes used and how did Japan react to the Reich nuking Sydney ?

I'll have to review that. I *think* that Lindbergh should be 1940 instead. That would give his "America First" message have more give.

Oh something I had as my personal head canon: I suspected that the Third World War began because Barry Goldwater managed to become president and as he is a hawk of Jewish descent the Nazis flipped out and either went to war right away or tried to assassinate him thus triggering war.

The same principle could work with someone like Jacob Javits as well.
I could see that, but really I see the republicans....not out and out supporting the Nazis by any means, but being more of the party of Detente and "America First" and less one that wants to risk war with the Reich.

I've thought over this, and have come to the conclusion that I disagree with your thoughts on civil rights in this world.

In the West, the civil rights movements came after World War II, and especially the Holocaust, exposed a huge hypocrisy in how the US and Europe conceived of themselves when a European state could do something so monstrous. In this world, the Holocaust would be covered up, and might would have made right. Here, autocracy has been 'proven' to work to the West, so that's the direction America will go. You'll likely see 1920s levels of racial violence continue into the present day of the novel.

You make some good points, and the events between the mid-1930s and the 1970s need to be fleshed out further.
I would counter, however, in that the Holocaust hasn't exactly been covered up. True, the masses haven't seen the shocking photographic proof in the same level that happened OTL. But, I think the truth has leaked out, and at the very least strong rumors are held as true by many. Especially those of Jewish ancestry who had relatives back in Europe that have essentially vanished.
Now, I don't think that Civil Rights by 1971 would be as progressed as they did OTL, since WWII and Korea helped spur some of that on, plus having to own up to our own hypocrisy, as you pointed out. Maybe some more state-by-state progress, and possibly having a version of our 1964 Civil Rights Act either having just passed, or being debated by Congress at the time of the nukes. Essentially, the Civil Rights movement would be slower to gain traction than it did OTL.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
I'll have to review that. I *think* that Lindbergh should be 1940 instead. That would give his "America First" message have more give.




and the events between the mid-1930s and the 1970s need to be fleshed out further.


So John Nance Garner (D) 1933-1941
Charles Lindbergh (R) 1941-1949
Joseph Kennedy (D) 1949-1957
Strom Thurmond (R) 1957- 1965
Hubert Humphrey (D) 1965-1971 ?

With more answers about WW3 in the Pacific forthcoming ?
 
So John Nance Garner (D) 1933-1941
Charles Lindbergh (R) 1941-1949
Joseph Kennedy (D) 1949-1957
Strom Thurmond (R) 1957- 1965
Hubert Humphrey (D) 1965-1971 ?

With more answers about WW3 in the Pacific forthcoming ?

That list is accurate.

As for WWIII in the Pacific, Japan either nuked Sydney itself or asked the Reich to do so (I hadn't settled that detail yet).
 
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