The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

All sound likely but what about Pat Robertson who as we know is not only a contemporary Evangelical minister but has a definite political bent as he ran for the Republican 1988 presidential nomination OTL? Also what is the current status of apocalyptic end of the world Christianity in an America where Armageddon actually happened in the 1970's ? Is there still something like the Left Behind books by Tim LaHaye ? Also any ideas about popes after Pious XII ? Does Joseph Ratzinger or another German rise to the office ITTL ?
My bad! I did see them but forgot to respond.

I'd put Robertson in the same boat as Baker. His conservatism will ultimately lead him to go along with the regime at some level.

The question about the "end of the world" vein that runs through American Evangelicalism is interesting. From my understanding, the belief in the "Rapture," especially as presented by Tim LaHaye in the Left Behind books, really took off in the 1970s, though obviously has earlier origins. My gut says that focus on the "end of the world" and the rapture and all of this might have diminished. Here's why: the "post-Armageddon" of the 1970s would last too long without Christ's return, discrediting those beliefs. Furthermore, the Christian religious establishment most likely to support the new regime would also have been the most likely to believe in the rapture and end of the world, and I just don't see the two messages jiving well, and so I think that belief in the rapture and the "end times" as exists in popular evangelical culture in OTL would be suppressed and not mainstream ITTL.

As far as who becomes Pope after Pious XII, I have no idea at this point. TBH I think that Catholicism would be on the continual decline in the Reich, and so instead I think the papacy probably footballs between the Italians and the Spaniards.
 
Turtledove wrote this book as a direct analog to the events at the fall of the Soviet Union with Gorbachev, so I am assuming that Buckliger is a loyal German patriot who looks at his country, sees the rot, and wants to fix what he can...not realizing how deep the rot goes. It would be interesting on the specifics though, and open to ideas/suggestions.
The problem is it feels kind of cheap and lazy to just copy Gorbachev's life wholesale over to Buckliger. It would be better to come up with a good in-verse life history that led to him doing what he did.

As one example, a major difference between Gorbachev and Buckliger is that Gorbachev was influenced greatly by having heard about the "Secret Speech" of the 20th Party Congress. Buckliger had no such "lightning moment" in his early career.
 
The problem is it feels kind of cheap and lazy to just copy Gorbachev's life wholesale over to Buckliger. It would be better to come up with a good in-verse life history that led to him doing what he did.

As one example, a major difference between Gorbachev and Buckliger is that Gorbachev was influenced greatly by having heard about the "Secret Speech" of the 20th Party Congress. Buckliger had no such "lightning moment" in his early career.
Oh I agree, copying Gorbachev wholesale wouldn't work, just as Turtledove didn't with OTL events....just used them as close inspiration, which is glaringly obvious when you read the novel. So no, Buckliger would not have the same life as Gorbachev. But the general gist of his motivations I think would be there. And as I said, I'd be open to specific ideas as it is something I haven't spent much time on myself.
 
Any closer to the next sample chapter ?
I am hoping to have something done sometime next week (Spring Break for me, and since I'm both a grad student and a public school teacher, this means plenty of free time...I hope). I do have the first section/POV for the next installment done. If my writing gets delayed, I will at least post that.
 
The problem is it feels kind of cheap and lazy to just copy Gorbachev's life wholesale over to Buckliger. It would be better to come up with a good in-verse life history that led to him doing what he did.

As one example, a major difference between Gorbachev and Buckliger is that Gorbachev was influenced greatly by having heard about the "Secret Speech" of the 20th Party Congress. Buckliger had no such "lightning moment" in his early career.
My inclination is to say that Buckliger was a party bureaucrat tasked with the typical loot-and-extract behavior after the conquest of America, maybe a Speer-camp ‘moderate,’ at which point he did the math and realized that a German economy based on tribute and looting would sooner or later require another war—and having seen the atomic devastation of the US, didn’t want one against Japan.

The problem is the age factor—if he were 30 when the US was conquered (circa 1970), he’d be 70 at the time of the book’s events, which makes him a poor stand-in for the 50-some Gorbachev. Maybe if he were a 20-year-old Landser it works better, one who stays around for the occupation and becomes an expert at milking the Americans.
 
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My inclination is to say that Buckliger was a party bureaucrat tasked with the typical loot-and-extract behavior after the conquest of America, maybe a Speer-camp ‘moderate,’ at which point he did the math and realized that a German economy based on tribute and looting would sooner or later require another war—and having seen the atomic devastation of the US, didn’t want one against Japan.

The problem is the age factor—if he were 30 when the US was conquered (circa 1970), he’d be 70 at the time of the book’s events, which makes him a poor stand-in for the 50-some Gorbachev. Maybe if he were a 20-year-old Landser it works better, one who stays around for the occupation and becomes an expert at milking the Americans.
SInce he became Minister of Heavy Industry, I'm going to assume he would have mustered out after his, say, three-year tour in Occupied USA, and parlayed his experience in cajoling Americans to cough up into a Schindler-like career of managing to rise up while becoming hip-deep in political connections. But the atomic devastation he saw in the forbidden zones would have left an impression, as would the realization that the German standard of living was predicated on permanently lowering that of the Americans'.
 
SInce he became Minister of Heavy Industry, I'm going to assume he would have mustered out after his, say, three-year tour in Occupied USA, and parlayed his experience in cajoling Americans to cough up into a Schindler-like career of managing to rise up while becoming hip-deep in political connections. But the atomic devastation he saw in the forbidden zones would have left an impression, as would the realization that the German standard of living was predicated on permanently lowering that of the Americans'.
That actually sounds quite plausible!
 
I am hoping to have something done sometime next week (Spring Break for me, and since I'm both a grad student and a public school teacher, this means plenty of free time...I hope). I do have the first section/POV for the next installment done. If my writing gets delayed, I will at least post that.
Remember there is also the let us have both option :)
 
Sequel, Chapter 2-A
Gregory Fontenoy sat at his desk, standing guard over Senator Jack Pembrook’s outer office. It was a busy couple of weeks, which Gregory both looked forward to and dreaded. The senator (and by extension, Fontenoy) would be escorting delegates from the Reich to various locations across the country in an attempt to show how the United States could not afford to pay any more than they already were. It would be quite the whirlwind: Reich military bases outside Chicago and St. Louis; SS bases in the South; San Diego and a meeting with Japanese officials stationed there; and New York City, the show-case of Albert Speer’s post-War redesign. It would be a grueling two weeks, but necessary work. Pembrook was a reformist FJP man from New York, and had been a quiet voice for strengthening the Union for years. The press often referred to him as the Father of the Reformers. Privately...very privately...Fontenoy wondered if that mattered. Freedom and Justice had lost control of the House of Representatives for the first time since the party’s founding in the aftermath of World War III, and they’d only maintained control of the Senate by two seats. Despite official efforts to quietly suppress such talk in the news, many Americans were expecting an anti-FJP sweep in November. The House, the Senate, and the Presidency. It was a crazy thing to imagine. When Fontenoy had been at university a decade ago, it would have been unimaginable. Hell, it would have been treasonous. But now it was reality.

It also meant that this whole circus with the team from Berlin might be pointless too. If the New Federalists or the Liberty Party took the presidency after the election in the fall, in all likelihood the Reich and the USA would be headed for a showdown over future tribute payments. And while Buckliger talked loudly about wanting to continue to ease up on the United States, from what the Senator’s contacts in Berlin had made clear, the Wehrmacht would not stand for a strong independent America. And whereas the SS coup in 2012 had failed, a military coup in 2021 was liable to succeed.

All this woolgathering vanished in an instant as his desk phone rang.

“Senator Pembrook’s office, Gregory Fontenoy speaking.” The man on the other end replied in German, and Fontenoy automatically switched gears.

Ja, Herr Nollert. The itinerary you sent over will work for us. The Senator already approved it. We should be meeting your delegation tomorrow at the airport. Wonderful. See you then.”

Phone back in its cradle, Gregory went back to planning.

**********
The next day, as promised, he and the senator and half a dozen other Americans were gathered in the VIP lounge at Thurmond International, waiting for the German delegation from Berlin. Precisely on time, the uniformed men from Berlin strode in, six of them in total, plus their security detail. The Americans subtly stiffened, as if coming to attention. Senator Pembrook stepped forward to greet Deputy Minister Altenburg.

Herr Altenburg, a pleasure as always,” the senator said, clicking heels slightly and offering the traditional salute. The German returned the gesture.

Danke schoen, Senator. Gehen wir jetzt?”

Ja, naturlich. Das Flugzeug ist hier und wir sind bereit,” the senator replied, and gestured to the smaller government jet waiting on the tarmac. Altenburg nodded in approval, and he and the other Germans began walking toward the door leading out to the awaiting aircraft, the Americans following suit.

A younger man from the group of Germans found Gregory.

“Herr Fontenoy, I presume? I am Joachim Weber, assistant to Chief Analyst Heinrich Gimpel. We’ve spoken on the phone.”

“Ah, Herr Weber, a pleasure to meet you in the flesh.” He meant that too. Weber might not be the Aryan superman specimen that often lurked at the Reichsbotschaft in Omaha, but he had a face that caught Gregory’s attention, as much as he wished it didn’t. It would be a distraction.

“You as well. Do you know what we should expect on today’s travel?”

“Well, we should be in St. Louis within an hour. The local mayor is probably going to roll out the red carpet, meeting us along with the Wehrmacht commander from Fort Wilhelm. Formal reception tonight at the historic old courthouse adjacent to the Westward Expansion Memorial, then meetings tomorrow and a tour of the base, and then off to San Diego the next day.”

“Will we get to go and tour the memorial? I’ve seen pictures, and Saarinen’s gateway looks most impressive.”

“I’ll speak with the senator, but I’m sure that can be arranged. At least a brief photo opportunity if nothing else.” The four-pronged square gate that stood facing the Mississippi River was truly a sight to behold, and one of the more treasured pre-war landmarks in that part of the country, and was the symbol of St. Louis.

The two delegations chatted politely during the short hop southeast to America’s fourth-largest city. Being from New York, Gregory was always underwhelmed by any other city save Berlin, but objectively he knew it wasn’t small, and there was more there there than in Omaha. He knew that Germans stationed in America’s capital considered it a hardship posting. Not out of actual physical hardship or danger, but out of sheer boredom. The feeling was well understood, but his career had taken him there, to the seat of power on the continent, and so Omaha was now as much his home as Manhattan. The city they approached on the Mississippi River would be a nice change of scenery if nothing else.

The senator’s conversation with the two leaders of the Germans pulled him out of his woolgathering.

“So Herr Gimpel,” Pembrook began, “what has been your impression of America so far? This is your first trip here, correct?”

The middle-aged Gimpel, even lankier than his assistant, Weber, cleared his throat and began to reply. “Yes senator, this is my first time across the Atlantic. It’s...well I know Omaha isn’t representative of the whole country, so I am excited to get out and see a bit more. The people seem friendly. More so than the French.” The others on the plane chuckled. That was a fair enough answer, Gregory thought.

“Well, I can’t wait to show you New York next week. Omaha is a one-horse town by comparison.” That comment earned even more hearty laughter, mainly from the Americans.
“I am looking forward to it. I’ve read a lot about the city, and Speer’s rebuilding efforts there after the war.”

“Yes, the Reich has always made sure to keep world-important cities going in the end. Just look at London or Paris, like New York they are phoenixes rising from ash.” Again, nods all around, though inwardly Gregory grimaced a little. Paris might have been spared the worst wrath of the Reich during the Second World War, but London? London was a shadow of its former self, and everyone knew it. Between the blitz and the 1970 uprising, and just an overall lack of funds, London was largely a has-been. Though it was doing better these days than Washington or Philadelphia or Boston or the half-dozen other cities in North America that were still restricted military zones nearly half a century after they’d been consumed in nuclear fire. Gregory had been to the Washington Exclusion Zone once with the senator, and the site had awed and horrified him, the slagged ruins under fifty years of decay and natural reclamation.

Just then, the pilot came over the intercom: “Ladies and Gentlemen, if you would please take your seats and buckle your seatbelts, we will be landing shortly in St. Louis.”
 
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The book mentioned that collecting from the Americans was difficult. Is there a large gray and black market in the us?
Hmm. Not sure. I'd always taken that to mean that the American gov't was just reluctant to pay and trying to find ways to weasel around the payments and Reich-imposed restrictions where it could. Even though the people who took power did benefit from the new order imposed by the Reich, they are, in their own twisted way, American "patriots," and in the long run don't want America to be forever backward. So while Thurmond goes along with things, I saw him and others providing cover for other officials trying to incrementally "take back" ground lost after WWIII.
 
One person to definitely add is Pat Buchanan, who was born in 1938, and has written about his Admiration for Hitler:

Buchanan likely would have had ties to Thurmond ITTL, but also had ties to DC and I think there's a really good chance he'd have perished during the attacks.

Excerpt from American Political Encylcopedia, Omaha, FD, 2009:
Buchanan, Pat (1938-1971) - Well known conservative political writer and lobbyist. Worked on President Thurmond's presidential re-election campaign in 1960 and then in the White House Press office from 1961-1965, when Thurmond lost his second re-election bid to Herbert Humphrey. Stayed in his hometown of Washington, working for the Republican National Committee. Was reportedly considering a move to Virginia to be able to run for the House in 1972. Died in the atomic attack on Washington on July 3rd, 1971. President Thurmond is said to have remarked, as he assembled the emergency government following the end of World War III, "Damn, I wish Buchanan had accepted my July 4th invite. We could have used him now."
 
Buchanan likely would have had ties to Thurmond ITTL, but also had ties to DC and I think there's a really good chance he'd have perished during the attacks.

Some of the big fish like Buchanan would have went with DC and some of the other nuked cities but sadly for the US there were plenty of little Buchanans who were still around after 7/4/71. So does DC, Philadelphia ,Boston and a half dozen others mean 9 cities in total ? Is there an official list ? Looking forward to the American tour which one assumes will include some particularly stomach churning areas of the South. A big part of this story that I think you are successfully continuing is that as much as this world is slowly changing for the better it still has very far to go,,,,
 
Hmm. Not sure. I'd always taken that to mean that the American gov't was just reluctant to pay and trying to find ways to weasel around the payments and Reich-imposed restrictions where it could. Even though the people who took power did benefit from the new order imposed by the Reich, they are, in their own twisted way, American "patriots," and in the long run don't want America to be forever backward. So while Thurmond goes along with things, I saw him and others providing cover for other officials trying to incrementally "take back" ground lost after WWIII.
A funny irony would be if the US tried to get out of paying tribute by screwing their own economy the way post-WWI Germany did. To which the Germans can answer, "We've seen this before. We can do this the easy way, or we can start demanding tribute in the form of slave labor."
 
So Lindbergh died in 1974 OTL. How long did he last ITTL ? Did he have anything else to "contribute" after his presidency or post WW3 ?
 
So Lindbergh died in 1974 OTL. How long did he last ITTL ? Did he have anything else to "contribute" after his presidency or post WW3 ?
I always feel like, when calculating when people die in-timeline vs. OTL, that serving as president should sap significant time off their lives, so if he died OTL in 1974, then I would venture to say that ITTL, he died in the 1960s. He served as president from 1941-1949, so...maybe he died in the mid-60s? Definitely dead before 1971. Maybe he did work for the Thurmond government to try and soften relations with the Reich?
 
I always feel like, when calculating when people die in-timeline vs. OTL, that serving as president should sap significant time off their lives, so if he died OTL in 1974, then I would venture to say that ITTL, he died in the 1960s. He served as president from 1941-1949, so...maybe he died in the mid-60s? Definitely dead before 1971. Maybe he did work for the Thurmond government to try and soften relations with the Reich?
Sounds likely. Did you notice this BTW?
Some of the big fish like Buchanan would have went with DC and some of the other nuked cities but sadly for the US there were plenty of little Buchanans who were still around after 7/4/71. So does DC, Philadelphia ,Boston and a half dozen others mean 9 cities in total ? Is there an official list ? Looking forward to the American tour which one assumes will include some particularly stomach churning areas of the South. A big part of this story that I think you are successfully continuing is that as much as this world is slowly changing for the better it still has very far to go,,,,
 
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