The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

Another thing that could be considered is the book referring to the Nazis extracting blood from the Americans on previous occasions when they didn't pay up. When/where and what did this involve ? Also in the long run this probably just reinforced the idea amongst Americans that no matter how Aryan and fascist they were they were still German subjects. Was there ever a major revolt as there had been in the UK in the 1970's ?
 
For South America, maybe it could be divided between domestic fascists and local strongmen/caudillos who aligned with the Germans or Japanese because they liked partners who didn't moan about democracy or human rights.
 
For South America, maybe it could be divided between domestic fascists and local strongmen/caudillos who aligned with the Germans or Japanese because they liked partners who didn't moan about democracy or human rights.
A Brazilian dictator in the eighties and nineties could be Wilson Leite Passos, he was a openly neo nazi, eugenist and holocaust denier brazilian deputiee, and the worst part is that he managed to be elected over and over again until the 2000s.
 
A Brazilian dictator in the eighties and nineties could be Wilson Leite Passos, he was a openly neo nazi, eugenist and holocaust denier brazilian deputiee, and the worst part is that he managed to be elected over and over again until the 2000s.
Considering that IIRC, Brazil had a muti-racial football team in the book, I would say Brazil is more of a bog-standard military dictatorship who likes partners who don't moan about democracy or human rights.
 
Another thing that could be considered is the book referring to the Nazis extracting blood from the Americans on previous occasions when they didn't pay up. When/where and what did this involve ? Also in the long run this probably just reinforced the idea amongst Americans that no matter how Aryan and fascist they were they were still German subjects. Was there ever a major revolt as there had been in the UK in the 1970's ?
Yeah I thought about that. I'm thinking mid-to-late 1980s? perhaps after Thurmond leaves office/dies? I'm thinking along the lines of once the first post-war leader is out of office, the next generation tries to push back and gets beaten hard. Another thing to consider, is that in the book, when this is mentioned, it is during a news broadcast, and when the news anchor mentions the possibility of force, one of the stock footage pieces that is used is a nuclear attack. Maybe when the second post-war administration initially refuses to pay up, the Reich nukes a city in retaliation?

For South America, maybe it could be divided between domestic fascists and local strongmen/caudillos who aligned with the Germans or Japanese because they liked partners who didn't moan about democracy or human rights.
Probably something along these lines.

A Brazilian dictator in the eighties and nineties could be Wilson Leite Passos, he was a openly neo nazi, eugenist and holocaust denier brazilian deputiee, and the worst part is that he managed to be elected over and over again until the 2000s.
Considering that IIRC, Brazil had a muti-racial football team in the book, I would say Brazil is more of a bog-standard military dictatorship who likes partners who don't moan about democracy or human rights.
Yeah, the book makes it sound like Brazil is probably not a democracy but also isn't in line with Nazi racial ideology. My opinion is that the Reich conquers Europe and most of Africa by the 1950s, and despite rhetoric to the contrary isn't necessarily looking for more major territorial expansion. Then WWIII happens in the early 1970s thanks to Japanese aggression towards Australia, and Germany faces off against the USA, is able to get the upper hand, and suddenly finds itself in control of anther continent, greatly stretching resources, which is why, as much as humanly possible, the Nazis will "outsource" their terror to the pro-fascist Americans that they set up as puppets under Thurmond.

On a side-note, how would the Nazis handle traveling abroad for their own citizens, especially to neutral powers like Sweden and Switzerland?

Also, and I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, the book is ridiculously vague about the Russians. You get the sense that maybe the USSR still exists beyond the Urals? But that is never really stated one way or another. Thoughts?

I'm also curious how things like Olympics or other such international events get going again after WWII. Clearly we still have the World Cup, that was mentioned in the book, with Germany winning in 2006.
 
Okay, here's a somewhat more fleshed out TL for the 1930s and 1940s. It's not complete yet but fills in more gaps.
DISCLAIMER: Military history is not my strong suit, so keep that in mind. Just trying to come up with details that Turtledove left very vague.

The 1930s
1932

  • January 19: Franklin D. Roosevelt dies of pneumonia.

  • July 2: Al Smith is nominated for President, with John N. Garner as his running mate

  • November 8: Al Smith defeats Herber Hoover to become the 32nd President of the United States
1933
  • January 30: Adolf Hitler is made Chancellor of Germany

  • March 4: Al Smith is sworn in as President, stating that “A New Day is dawning in America, one that shall wipe away the tears of the past four years of depression and anxiety.”

  • March 23: The German Reichstag passes the Enabling Act, in effect giving Adolf Hitler dictatorial powers.

  • April 20: President Smith’s “New Day” plan is signed into law as a series of three bills, promising to secure the banks, rebuild and expand infrastructure, and put people back to work.
1934
  • February 3: President Smith signs into law the Citizen Security program, designed to help those out of work due to illness, old-age, or lay-off.
1935
1936

  • June 12: The Republican National Convention nominates Alf Landon for President and Earl Warren for Vice President.

  • June 27: Al Smith and Nance Garner are renominated for the Democratic ticket for the Presidency.

  • August 1-16: Berlin Olympics. Jesse Owens and Marty Glickman both win Gold, a slap in the face of Nazi racial ideas
1937
1938

  • March 12: Germany annexes Austria
1939
  • September 1: Germany invades Poland, kicking off WWII.
The 1940s
1940
  • April 9: Germany invades Denmark and Norway

  • May 10: Germany invades France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg

  • May 15: The Netherlands surrenders

  • May 26: Exacuations of Allied troops at Dunkirk begins

  • May 28: Belgium surrenders

  • June 1: Allied armies at Dunkirk surrender to the Germans. Less than 100,000 had been exacuated, crippling Britain

  • June 10: Nazis take Paris

  • June 19: France formally surrenders

  • June 26: Al Smith is renominated once again by the Democrats

  • July 12: Republicans nominate Charles Lindburg, with Robert Taft as his running mate

  • August 30: “The Blitz” as it becomes known, begins, intensifying the Luftwaffe’s attacks on Britain.

  • September 29: King George VI is killed in a nighttime bombing raid that struck Buckingham Palace. Queen Mary is in a comma, but the princesses survive mostly unharmed.

  • October 3: Queen Mary dies.

  • October 8: Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, is recognized as Prince Regent. He orders that Queen Elizabeth and Princess Margret be taken to Edinburg, away from the worst of the Blitz. Henry remains in London to work with Prime Minister Churchill.

  • November 5: Charles Lindburg is elected as the 33rd President of the United States, having run on a promise of keeping America out of the European War
1941
  • May 1: Operation Sea Lion commences, with Nazi landings all across Southern England, in addition to paratroopers.

  • June 9: the Battle of London begins.

  • June 12: Prince Henry and Prime Minister Churchill evacuate London.

  • June 22: London falls.

  • August 31: Southern England is declared secure, and the Nazis begin to focus on the Midlands.

  • October 3: Birmingham falls to the Nazis

  • December 8: Opening of the Honolulu Peace Talks between the United States and Japan, with President Lindburg leading the negotiations.

  • December 19: Liverpool surrenders to the Nazis

  • December 20: Honolulu Accords signed, America promises to not get involved in Japan’s territorial expansion and continue to allow trade. Lindburg touts this as keeping America safe. Democratic critics see him kowtowing to Japan.
1942
  • January 9: Manchester falls to the Nazis.

  • February 12: Prince Henry, Queen Elizabeth II, and Princess Margret evacuate for Canada (arrive in Halifax on Feb. 16)

  • March 28: York falls.

  • April 3: England is declared secure.

  • April 20: Battle of Edinburg begins

  • May 9: Edinburg surrenders

  • May 20: Glasgow surrenders

  • June 1: Seeing that Britain is soon to fall, the Soviet Union launches an attack on Nazi-occupied Poland, opening up the Eastern Front

  • June 7: Churchill is captured

  • June 8: First Battle of Warsaw: Soviets smash into the city

  • June 10: The remains of Churchill’s government agrees to a cease-fire.

  • June 15: First Battle of Warsaw ends in Soviet victory

  • July 26: Negotiations begin in Dublin between the British and the Nazis, with the Irish as “neutral” hosts, to discuss what happens to Great Britain and the Empire.

  • September 9: Battle of Krakow: Nazis stop the Soviet advance into Poland

1943
  • January 10: Dublin Accords are signed

    • Great Britain & Northern Ireland are declared a protectorate of the Reich, similar to France.

    • Canada, Australia, South Africa, and India, are recognized as nations fully independent. Queen Elizabeth is recognized as Queen of Canada and gives up all claim to the British throne.

    • The remainder of Britain’s colonies in Africa and the Middle East are to be given over to the Reich (in theory, though this won’t actually occur as simply or as quickly as the treaty demands)
  • April 4: Second Battle of Warsaw: Nazis retake the city.

  • May 3: Japan launches an invasion of Australia

  • June 16: Minsk falls to the Nazis

  • End of Year: Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia are all under Nazi occupation. German troops occupy most of Belorussia and have made headway in Ukraine.
1944
  • January 12: Edward VIII is invited by the Nazis to return as King of Great Britain, which he does.

  • March 1: Edward VIII is crowned as King in the still damaged Westminster Abbey, with his wife recognized as Queen Wallace.

  • March 12: King Edward VIII meets with Oswald Mosley, formally asking him to become Prime Minister of Great Britain. This marks the end of “direct rule” by the Nazis over Britain, and the start of it being a client state within the Germanic Empire.

  • April 30: Battle of Darwin: Australian forces are able to retake the city from the Japanese, effectively ending Japan’s attempted invasion.

  • July 1: Democrats nominate Henry Wallace and Harry Truman to run against Lindburg.

  • July 19: Republicans renominate Lindburg and Taft

  • July 20: Leningrad falls to the Nazis.

  • September 3: Siege of Moscow begins

  • November 7: Lindburg wins reelection in a close race with Wallace.

  • November 30: Japan and Australia sign a formal Armistice
1945
  • March 4: Moscow falls to the Nazis. Stalin, Molotov, and Beria all escape.

  • April 30: Stalin and Beria are captured near Nizhny Novograd. Molotov escapes east of the Urals, where he declares that the Soviet Union will fight on.

  • May 1: Japan declares war on the Soviet Union, invading Vladivostok and the rest of the Russian Far East.

  • June 3: The Nazis drop an atomic bomb on Kazan, where the Red Army had been regrouping for a counter-attack.

  • August 31: Hitler declares victory over the Soviet Union west of the Urals. In reality, the Reich will take until 1947 to really secure this region, and an unofficial truce takes place with the rump Soviet Union, centered on Omsk.

  • September: the German High Command secretly announces plans to work on consolidating control in Europe through 1946, with plans to deal with the Middle East, Africa, and India starting in 1947.
1946
1947
1948

  • June 20: Democrats nominate Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr., with Senator Richard Russell of Georgia as his running mate.

  • July 2: Republicans nominate Thomas Dewey and Earl Warren. There had been discussion about renominating Lindburg, but he announced early on he would not seek reelection, and Vice President Taft declined due to a health scare.

  • November 2: Joseph Kennedy is elected as the 34th President of the United States, promising to end American isolation and become a world leader. Despite a lack of desire to enter the war in Europe, attitudes had slowly changed following the fall of Britain and the Soviet Union Many feel that they made a mistake in staying out of what was now becoming known as the Second World War.
1949
One of the biggest issues here is trying to figure out what happens to the Soviet Union. The book never outright says the Soviets were conquered, just "pushed beyond the Urals." There is a mention of "The Germanic Empire, shown in the blood-red of the flag, stretched from England deep into Siberia and India."

I was always left with the feeling that some sort of rump Russian state existed in this isolated state off in an area the Reich would have largely regarded as a frozen wasteland and not worth messing with.

Also interesting to note, the book mentions Sweden as an ally, not a neutral state, and Switzerland isn't mentioned when Alicia Gimpel is explaining the map in class. Thoughts?
 
Love what you have so far with the TL and cant wait for more. As for the Olympics I could see South Africa getting the games in the 1980's or 1990's and perhaps Brazil gets them in 2016 as in OTL ?
 
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I also can see a rump Soviet Union existing east of the Urals that Germany has never fully conquered and perhaps is even propped up by Japan to stick a finger in the Nazis eye. Perhaps in a way its TTLs version of Vietnam , Afghanistan and the War on Terror-going on year after year with no end in sight ? I still cant wait till the next part and I hope there will be more.
 
@Eckener , Calbear once wrote that the defeat in Dunkerke would not break the British war effort since in 1922 alone you had one million births on Britain, so just the populational growth is enought to replace them. What if there is a larger BEF, ir a even earlier pod with a strong communist presence in the UK and they make a general strike in late 1940 trying to claim the island, and this ends actually making it possible for Germany to invade it?
 
An interesting potential impact of an Axis victory I have recently realized: psychology’s core could be very different. OTL Freud formed the groundwork of early psychology but given he was Jewish obviously the Nazis wouldn’t support his theories. However, Carl Jung, while no an enthusiastic Hitler supporter and in fact personally opposed to Nazi anti semitism, had a go-along-to-get-along approach and, additionally, lived decades longer than Freud did. So there is a good chance Jung’s viewpoints would dominate psychology even before World War III occurs.
 
Given how religious the US population is its also worth considering what type of religion comes to dominate in the former US, Is it the Norse pagan revival top Nazis like Himmler supported or is it a more white identity type Christianity preferred by many white supremacist groups OTL ? Also given the protected status of Indians and Japanese is there more Hindu and Shinto believers. Also wouldn't there be a much larger number of atheist and agnostics ?
 
Love what you have so far with the TL and can't wait for more. As for the Olympics, I could see South Africa getting the games in the 1980s or 1990s and perhaps Brazil gets them in 2016 as in OTL?
Hmm. That would be interesting, having the 2016 games in Brazil. IIRC, Hitler had plans for having all future Olympics in Germany, but I find that far-fetched. Probably most games would be held, starting in 1948, within the Reich somewhere. Maybe one game in the 60s in the USA, like 1960 or 1964?

I also can see a rump Soviet Union existing east of the Urals that Germany has never fully conquered and perhaps is even propped up by Japan to stick a finger in the Nazis eye. Perhaps in a way its TTLs version of Vietnam, Afghanistan and the War on Terror-going on year after year with no end in sight ? I still can't wait till the next part and I hope there will be more.
To be honest, that would be a good similarity to make. Japan might prop them up clandestinely, after seizing the eastern coast of Russia.

I will try to get more out this week. My intent with this isn't necessarily a detailed TL all the way up to the present day, but at least filling in the bigger details and possibly writing a short-story sequel showing what happens after the failed 2012 coup shown in the book.

@Eckener, Calbear once wrote that the defeat in Dunkerke would not break the British war effort since in 1922 alone you had one million births on Britain, so just the populational growth is enough to replace them. What if there is a larger BEF, or an even earlier pod with a strong communist presence in the UK and they make a general strike in late 1940 trying to claim the island, and this ends actually making it possible for Germany to invade it?
The book implies that some sort of invasion of Great Britain took place, without getting into too many details. I felt that a Dunkirk catastrophe would be a good starting place, with a different Blitz and the death of the King to help break morale.

I'll fully admit that a sealion-esque scenario isn't my favorite, but my goal here is to fill in the book's gaps, not rewrite what was given in the book, which I'm treating as canon.

An interesting potential impact of an Axis victory I have recently realized: psychology’s core could be very different. OTL Freud formed the groundwork of early psychology but given he was Jewish obviously the Nazis wouldn’t support his theories. However, Carl Jung, while no an enthusiastic Hitler supporter and in fact personally opposed to Nazi antisemitism, had a go-along-to-get-along approach and, additionally, lived decades longer than Freud did. So there is a good chance Jung’s viewpoints would dominate psychology even before World War III occurs.
Interesting, though I admit that I don't know enough about the particulars of psychology to really comment (though if someone else does and wants to take a stab at it I'd be interested. )

Given how religious the US population is its also worth considering what type of religion comes to dominate in the former US, Is it the Norse pagan revival top Nazis like Himmler supported or is it a more white identity type Christianity preferred by many white supremacist groups OTL ? Also given the protected status of Indians and Japanese is there more Hindu and Shinto believers. Also wouldn't there be a much larger number of atheist and agnostics ?
I've generally been of the opinion that the whole Norse pagan revival thing that we saw attempted by Himmler and others likely wouldn't have gone mainstream. Again, treating the book as canon, there was no mention of it, and there was the implication that "quiet Christianity" was tolerated. In the Reich, I feel like atheism/agnosticism would be encouraged (though not to the extent that we saw in MITHC). Now, in the USA, I suspect we'd see a higher level of agnosticism compared to OTL, but also as you mention a form of white-supremacist Christianity. In addition, though it is never mentioned, I suspect that Catholicism still exists as well (albeit in a much more conservative form than we are used to). Possibility of the Anglican church as well?

I think you are also correct on Hinduism and Shintoism as well.
 
I wonder how Islam is treated. The book mentions the Arabs were declared ‘Semitic as the Jews’ and thus exterminated or enslaved. However, Iranians and Indians were declared Aryan and both places have sizeable Muslim populations. And Hitler reportedly viewed Islam favorably. On the other hand, favoring Hinduism over Islam would gain the Nazis more support in India and if Islam was declared a ‘Semitic faith’ it could justify targeting Muslims in Iran, perhaps seeking to bolster Zoroastrianism or the Baha’i faith. This could be a good cover for targeting Muslims in these countries if they sought to rebel (which seems likely given I’m pretty sure the Muslim population in these regions would be displeased with Germany owning Mecca and also even if the Sunnis are considered heretical I can imagine Shia Muslims might be concerned about what happened to the Arab world).
 
There is also the likelihood that Jehovah's Witnesses -which their much larger American numbers-would be targeted. Also what about Mormons ? One could see how the Nazis and the American fascists would see them as a threat.
 
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I wonder how Islam is treated. The book mentions the Arabs were declared ‘Semitic as the Jews’ and thus exterminated or enslaved. However, Iranians and Indians were declared Aryan and both places have sizeable Muslim populations. And Hitler reportedly viewed Islam favorably. On the other hand, favoring Hinduism over Islam would gain the Nazis more support in India and if Islam was declared a ‘Semitic faith’ it could justify targeting Muslims in Iran, perhaps seeking to bolster Zoroastrianism or the Baha’i faith. This could be a good cover for targeting Muslims in these countries if they sought to rebel (which seems likely given I’m pretty sure the Muslim population in these regions would be displeased with Germany owning Mecca and also even if the Sunnis are considered heretical I can imagine Shia Muslims might be concerned about what happened to the Arab world).
My guess is that Islam gets treated as a Semetic faith just as anathema as Judaism, and is targeted by the Reich and the Italian Empire, though maybe not with the same amount of zeal. However, it may not be seen as a race as well as a religion, so those non-Arab Muslims might be able to convert to save their lives. Maybe. Zoroastrianism or Baha'i getting a boost would be interesting to see.

There is also the likelihood that Jehovah's Witnesses -which their much larger American numbers-would be targeted. Also what about Mormons ? One could see how the Nazis and the American fascists would see them as threat.
I could easily see the Mormons being targeted, if not for their beliefs then because of their centralized power structure and relative separatism. JWs would definitely be targeted. It is plausible that the Mormon leadership could have made overtures to support the Nazis/the new fascist regime under Thurmond after 1971 in order to save their church. TBH I'm about 50/50 on what would happen to them.

I'd love to see any of Turtledove's works treated for TV or a movie. Plenty of good options, though this would be an easier one for non-AH general audiences to sink their teeth into without needing to know a lot of history.
 
One character who could play an interesting part is John Fitzgerald (R-CA). In OTL, he ran as a Holocaust denier in California, in one of the bluest districts in America, gaining 23% of the vote, by challenging people to prove that the Nazis committed genocide:

 
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