The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

The internment of Japanese, German, and Italian - Americans all took place after the US got involved in WW2, so post-1941. ITTL, that would never have happened, and WWIII doesn't last long enough for anything like that to occur.
I think you would see those communities facing suspicion from some in the US, while others would see them as a way to build ties with those countries and keep America at peace.
That said...the Germans and Italians would probably have an easier time of things just because they're "white," while the Japanese would still be subject to Americans' well established anti-Asian racism.



Exactly. The POD is 1932, so there is plenty of wiggle room with WWII itself. In the TL I wrote up, France falls earlier, and Dunkirk is a disaster. King George VI is killed in the Blitz at the end of September 1940. So that war is subtly different early on and becomes more different the longer it goes, so that by 1945 we see Moscow falling and the Russians in retreat, with the first atomic weapon used in the summer, with Hitler declaring victory in August.

Speaking of Russia....Turtledove is VERY vague about what happened to them and what their current status was as of 2010. There's some mention that they'd been "pushed back beyond the Urals," but that's about it. I briefly included a rump Russian government centered in Omsk surviving post-1945, but not much detail there. Thoughts?

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Also, trying to map out where this sequel story will go. Here are some "big ideas" I've been pondering and would welcome some help fleshing them out before I get into writing the details:

- Heinrich & Lise: I'm going to have Heinrich transferred to the USA, to give us a better first-person POV to what happens. So, what DOES happen?
  • The New Federalists are going to capture control of the Presidency. They are a "moderate" party ideologically. Not out and out fascist like the FJP, but not wanting to change things overnight back to true democracy (as opposed to the Liberty Party).
  • The USA's new President is going to be outspoken about wanting to change America's status from "occupied" to "member of the Empire"
  • This is going to rattle the Wehrmacht, which opposes a strong United States, whereas Buckliger is more open to discussing America's demands
- Alicia: She's going to make contact with the Jewish community in Switzerland, along with being the primary European POV
  • Her meeting the Jewish community is still a little vague in my head...just a scene where she stumbles upon a Synagogue having Saturday services. I'm not sure exactly how this plays out, especially with regard to the security police. How heavily would they be trailing her?
  • In Germany, there is the "grand reform bill" that is being debated.
    • 10 year term-limit on the position of the Fuhrer
    • Revives the Reichskanzler position separate from the Fuhrer, with a sort of "head of state/head of government" split between the two.
    • Opens up some level of greater speech and press expression
  • Does the reform bill pass?
    • If so, what's the fallout?
    • If not, what's the fallout? I would imagine that would be more destabilizing, with people taking to the streets, so it seems less likely.
    • My gut says: the bill passes, but there are plenty of detractors. Once America starts causing issues after the 2020 election and the new non-fascist is in office in 2021, those detractors start to speak out.
  • Following my gut... America takes one step too far in the eyes of Wehrmacht officials, and so the hardliners, working with the Army, force a coup to remove Buckliger and to clamp down on parts of the reform bill.
    • This causes a full-blown uprising in Germany, and at this point, the stronger constituent parts of the Empire rise up, ostensibly in support of Buckliger but really in support of their own independence.
    • The world comes to the brink of a fourth world war. Japan backs the reformists (helps take Germany down a peg or three in strength - though there are several in their own government that realize this could strengthen dissent within their own Empire). This forces the Wehrmacht coup leaders to the table.
So again, this is a rough sketch of where I am at currently, but very much open to changing things. Definitely wanting feedback here in order to tell a good story.
I was also wondering what is the status of German, Italian and Japanese Americans who survive WW3 ? If they are willing to go along with the new program do they get some sort of favored or protected status by virtue of their ancestry ?
It makes sense to have as in Fatherland a rump Soviet Union fighting against Germany-with clandestine American and maybe even Japanese assistance. But I dont see how this would have lasted beyond WW3 so the remaining Soviets were defeated as early as the 50's but as late as the early 70's ?
I think part of what should be addressed is just how much of pre WW3 America remains ? The true believers in the new regime combined with TTL's silent majority are the typical Americans who either agree with the program or go along with it to get along. Who are the Americans who not only want the Nazis gone but want America back the way it use to be ? Sounds like many of them are in the Liberal Party but who are those even more radical ? Since Buckliger has come to power they have a new lease on life. As long as they dont go too far they can exist in plain sight but how far will they go if there is a real chance to through off the Nazi yoke? Also what about the most endangered in America-the hidden blacks and Jews who have managed to survive ? What are their lives like, how many remain and where are they ? Can things really change enough for them to live a normal life again ?
 
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I was also wondering what is the status of German, Italian and Japanese Americans who survive WW3 ? If they are willing to go along with the new program do they get some sort of favored or protected status by virtue of their ancestry ?
It makes sense to have as in Fatherland a rump Soviet Union fighting against Germany-with clandestine American and maybe even Japanese assistance. But I dont see how this would have lasted beyond WW3 so the remaining Soviets were defeated as early as the 50's but as late as the early 70's ?
I think part of what should be addressed is just how much of pre WW3 America remains ? The true believers in the new regime combined with TTL's silent majority are the typical Americans who either agree with the program or go along with it to get along. Who are the Americans who not only want the Nazis gone but want America back the way it use to be ? Sounds like many of them are in the Liberal Party but who are those even more radical ? Since Buckliger has come to power they have a new lease on life. As long as they dont go too far they can exist in plain sight but how far will they go if there is a real chance to through off the Nazi yoke? Also what about the most endangered in America-the hidden blacks and Jews who have managed to survive ? What are their lives like, how many remain and where are they ? Can things really change enough for them to live a normal life again ?
I would say that those of Axis origins or descent would be well treated in the new regime after the dust settles, so long as they pledge loyalty to the new government.

I tend to agree that *something* had to happen with remnant of the Soviet Union. But what, exactly? The book doesn't say what happened at all, other than the Russians had been "pushed back beyond the Urals." But that doesn't really say what. I believe that the Reich actually going all the way into Siberia would be too overextended. Hence why I haven't gotten into detail there yet either. Open to more suggestions.

Your last big question here really gets at the crux of most AH fiction that deals with a "post-Reich" scenario where the Nazis are victorious but later collapse. What comes next? Can people who overthrow the Reich after nearly a century of indoctrination really accept Jews or other "untermenschen" that have been presented as a natural enemy to those supposed "Aryans"?

In the USA at least, obviously those ruling elite support the doctrine imposed by the Nazis. Then there are those who just went along with it because it benefited them (business leaders, etc). I would say at least 40-50% of the population quietly resent the status quo but keep their heads down because they value breathing. With the winds changing...they may not remain quiet and supportive of the status quo. You'll have some, especially in the South (and those of Southern descent), that would be unrepentant racist and "true believers." Maybe...25-40% of the population. But of those, many would still want a "free" America out from under the thumb of the Reich. If/when that happens...there would definitely be an open fight about what to with those the Reich had outlawed.

Famous, well known Jewish persons would have been targeted and rooted out. But I think that plenty of others could have blended in, especially in the chaos, since the US didn't keep genealogical records like Europe. After the Reich-backed regime crumbles, they might be able to come out openly, at least in more traditional areas.

African Americans, on the other hand, are going to be harder hit. There will be those in hiding across the country, but their numbers will have tragically been decimated in the 1970s. As for what happens after the fall of the pro-Nazi FJP government, African-Americans *might* be rehabilitated. But I stress might. It just depends on exactly how liberal the new government is. Even then, that Southern-brand of racism isn't going to go away, and TTL's America was still in the throes of dealing with Civil Rights when the Nazis invaded and upended everything.

The one thing that will set the USA apart from the Reich in this regard, about what happens after fascism collapses, is that, in the USA, there will still be people alive, and in positions of power, who remember what life was like before. They have something concrete to work from as they build a new future.
 
I tend to agree that *something* had to happen with remnant of the Soviet Union. But what, exactly? The book doesn't say what happened at all, other than the Russians had been "pushed back beyond the Urals." But that doesn't really say what. I believe that the Reich actually going all the way into Siberia would be too overextended. Hence why I haven't gotten into detail there yet either. Open to more suggestions.

Your last big question here really gets at the crux of most AH fiction that deals with a "post-Reich" scenario where the Nazis are victorious but later collapse. What comes next? Can people who overthrow the Reich after nearly a century of indoctrination really accept Jews or other "untermenschen" that have been presented as a natural enemy to those supposed "Aryans"?

In the USA at least, obviously those ruling elite support the doctrine imposed by the Nazis. Then there are those who just went along with it because it benefited them (business leaders, etc). I would say at least 40-50% of the population quietly resent the status quo but keep their heads down because they value breathing. With the winds changing...they may not remain quiet and supportive of the status quo. You'll have some, especially in the South (and those of Southern descent), that would be unrepentant racist and "true believers." Maybe...25-40% of the population. But of those, many would still want a "free" America out from under the thumb of the Reich. If/when that happens...there would definitely be an open fight about what to with those the Reich had outlawed.

Famous, well known Jewish persons would have been targeted and rooted out. But I think that plenty of others could have blended in, especially in the chaos, since the US didn't keep genealogical records like Europe. After the Reich-backed regime crumbles, they might be able to come out openly, at least in more traditional areas.

African Americans, on the other hand, are going to be harder hit. There will be those in hiding across the country, but their numbers will have tragically been decimated in the 1970s. As for what happens after the fall of the pro-Nazi FJP government, African-Americans *might* be rehabilitated. But I stress might. It just depends on exactly how liberal the new government is. Even then, that Southern-brand of racism isn't going to go away, and TTL's America was still in the throes of dealing with Civil Rights when the Nazis invaded and upended everything.

The one thing that will set the USA apart from the Reich in this regard, about what happens after fascism collapses, is that, in the USA, there will still be people alive, and in positions of power, who remember what life was like before. They have something concrete to work from as they build a new future.
Well the Soviet remnant would be destroyed at some point right or is it still existing in 2020 ? I think that having it completely conquered by the end of WW2 or the 50's is probably way too soon and would amount to Germany over extending itself. But by the 1960's and 1970's -especially post WW3 wouldn't it be on its last ropes especially if the campaign Germany was waging against it was genocidial in nature and if they no longer had American assistance ? I dont see how it could last beyond the 80's at the latest....
 
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What is the technological level of the ITPOME world? I have not read the novel yet, I just know its summary (I really don't care about spoilers), on its cover we have a Mercedes car which is pretty much identical to ours, did Turtledove wanted to make the technology almost identical to OTL?
mercedes.png
 
What is the technological level of the ITPOME world? I have not read the novel yet, I just know its summary (I really don't care about spoilers), on its cover we have a Mercedes car which is pretty much identical to ours, did Turtledove wanted to make the technology almost identical to OTL?
View attachment 543687
They are basically the same as us but more advanced in some ways but less advanced in others. For example the Nazis have been to Mars but there is no Internet-although the reason for no internet probably isn't lack of technology but unwillingness to give the masses access to an interconnected computer and communication system.
 
Well the Soviet remnant would be destroyed at some point right or is it still existing in 2020 ? I think that having it completely conquered by the end of WW2 or the 50's is probably way too soon and would amount to Germany over extending itself. But by the 1960's and 1970's -especially post WW3 wouldn't it be on its last ropes especially if the campaign Germany was waging against it was genocidial in nature and if they no longer had American assistance ? I dont see how it could last beyond the 80's at the latest....
I could definitely see it as something that is in the aftermath of WWIII and the fall of the United States, no later than the early 1980s. Would the Reich actually annex the land east of the Urals?

What is the technological level of the ITPOME world? I have not read the novel yet, I just know its summary (I really don't care about spoilers), on its cover we have a Mercedes car which is pretty much identical to ours, did Turtledove wanted to make the technology almost identical to OTL?
View attachment 543687
They are basically the same as us but more advanced in some ways but less advanced in others. For example the Nazis have been to Mars but there is no Internet-although the reason for no internet probably isn't lack of technology but unwillingness to give the masses access to an interconnected computer and communication system.
The general implication from Turtledove is that the technology is generally on par with what we have OTL at the same time. Keep in mind, he set the book in 2010, writing in 2003 (though apparently he was tooling around with this idea in the mid-1990s, at least according to the book's copyright page), so some things were kept vague for that reason, instead of trying to guess what new advances might have been forthcoming. There is a noticeable absence of cell phones of any sort, but I think that is something that I could probably include as having been made available to the general public relatively recently (having likely been something only used by the military before).

They have TVs and computers, though I get the impression that PCs aren't as common outside of workplaces (though the book mention's the daughter Alicia learning how to type on a computer, so they aren't super rare, military only type of items). With regards to the internet, the technology and know-how exist. They just don't due to security concerns (though there are several government intra-nets in existence).
 
I was also thinking that perhaps the idea of just how far behind the Reich Japan is in terms of technology is in part anti Asian propaganda. Also surely they are well aware that despite being "inferior" Japan is capable of devastating the Reich unlike the mostly Aryan Americans were a generation before ? Perhaps some more names from the list soon ?
 
Japan may also be hiding some of the more high tech features and technologies under that rural countryside or in the vast areas of China or Siberia.
 
I was also thinking that perhaps the idea of just how far behind the Reich Japan is in terms of technology is in part anti Asian propaganda. Also surely they are well aware that despite being "inferior" Japan is capable of devastating the Reich unlike the mostly Aryan Americans were a generation before ? Perhaps some more names from the list soon ?
Yes, unlike in High Castle, the I don't feel like Japanese and the Reich are really all that far apart in technology. I feel like what was said in the book was largely propaganda, not the actual situation on the ground.
 
I was also thinking that perhaps the idea of just how far behind the Reich Japan is in terms of technology is in part anti Asian propaganda. Also surely they are well aware that despite being "inferior" Japan is capable of devastating the Reich unlike the mostly Aryan Americans were a generation before ? Perhaps some more names from the list soon ?
The implication I got is that Japan can't be far behind, if it's behind at all outside of Nazi propaganda. The book makes it clear that a MAD style situation exists where both sides have an advanced enough nuclear arsenal to ensure that any war would be ruinous for both sides, and German programmers during the book resort to reverse-engineering Japanese computer code in order to make the Reich's new operating system release on schedule. That implies that when it comes to computing and nuclear weaponry, Japan is operating at a similar tech level to Germany.
 
Ooo thanks! I'll have to check that out!

And not until later this week. I have two major assignments due this Wednesday that will wrap up this semester of grad school, and I can devote more time to story writing after that.
I hope you had a successful finish and am looking forward to seeing the reward of your extra free time on the thread :)
 
I was also thinking that perhaps the idea of just how far behind the Reich Japan is in terms of technology is in part anti Asian propaganda. Also surely they are well aware that despite being "inferior" Japan is capable of devastating the Reich unlike the mostly Aryan Americans were a generation before ? Perhaps some more names from the list soon ?
Probably the Reich-Japan gap would be similar to the US-Soviet gap in the 1980s or the Sino-American gap right now. The Reich can claim to be more advanced in some areas, and the Japanese in others.
 
I hope you had a successful finish and am looking forward to seeing the reward of your extra free time on the thread :)
Thanks! Here's hoping I can be as productive as I'd like.

Probably the Reich-Japan gap would be similar to the US-Soviet gap in the 1980s or the Sino-American gap right now. The Reich can claim to be more advanced in some areas, and the Japanese in others.
I really like those comparisons that you made, and I feel they'd be accurate.
 
So in addition to American military members there were likely some American civilians who were outside of the US when disaster struck in July 1971. They would have been unlikely to willingly return especially if they were black ,Jewish or very liberal,Is there an exiled American community of sorts anywhere ? Brazil seems likely but anywhere else ?
 
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I think Minoru Genda might be one good candidate for that, particularly if he has a role in the 1971 war - let us assume he'd be a General then, age 66.
So I had to google him, but he seems like an interesting candidate. Granted, he wouldn't have the same war record, since Pearl Harbor didn't happen ITTL, but based on his record prior to and also after the attack, he still would be a Japanese war hero of sorts. I could see him being in the military still by then, in 1971, and after that victory propelling himself into politics and becoming Prime Minister in the late 70s, early 80s. I need to go back and read up on Japanese political structure during the war, as that is something I'm not very familiar with.
 
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