Hello everyone!

I recently finished re-reading the Atlantis Trilogy that Turtledove released between 2007-2009. I always found the concept interesting, and though I have some critiques having gone through it for the first time in over a decade, it still is, IMO, a fairly solid work. Would love to hear what others think, and discuss/speculate about the wider world outside Atlantis, and also ways that the world overall might be improved upon.

On Opening Atlantis - probably my overall favorite, as I really enjoy the multiple viewpoints across the centuries through the original settlers and then their descendants. The initial discovery and settlement stories were fun, as was the second section with the Pirates of Avalon Bay - it also sets up for great future lore for Atlanteans down the road, as well as exploring how wide the Radcliff/Radcliffe clan becomes in English-speaking Atlantis. Part three, with the parallel war with French Atlantis mirroring the OTL French & Indian War was okay and different enough to be unique (and also understandable since HT has to look at getting the books sold, and one of his schticks has been to have thing feel similar enough to be familiar to those less initiated in AH).

On The United States of Atlantis - definitely my least favorite. Some of this is just personal taste - I'm not a big military history guy so stories that are almost entirely military in their scope are a drag for me. I also disliked just HOW similar the war for Atlantean independence paralleled the OTL American war. I know it wasn't a carbon copy, and I realize why HT goes in for parallelism, but it was still a slog for me.

On Liberating Atlantis - This was also really a fun story. For one, I like how, although there is a vague bit of parallelism with the slavery issue leading to violence around the time of the OTL American Civil War, having it be a slave uprising and the slaves liberating themselves (no "white savior," Lincoln-breaking-the-chains narrative afterward here) really makes the story unique. In addition, I enjoyed seeing the way in which Atlantis's government operates with the two Co-Consul system, with all the unforeseen complications playing out as well.

Overall, I find that the continent of Atlantis itself was well thought out, with the different flora and fauna (honkers!) a big plus. I did feel like I was left wanting when it came to developments in the wider world. You didn't even need that much detail, just the odd line or paragraph mentioned in passing about events elsewhere - especially Terra Nova. We know that English settlements rose up there for a second time in 1809, but I don't think the outcome was ever disclosed, to say nothing of what other colonial powers had settlements, or where.

There were a few things that did annoy me:
- It felt like Turtledove used a strong butterfly net for events that happened outside Atlantis, especially when it came to Europe - having the same monarch on the throne in Britain at the time of the Atlantean revolution seemed somewhat far-fetched. Ditto events in France and having Lafayette be involved (though having him actually commanding a French army in the field was cool). Also, while I loved the place names that HT did for the cities in Atlantis, I found it almost infuriating that he just decided that all of the Atlantean states would just be named after the major cities in each state. Incredibly lazy. The ONLY original founding state in the OTL USA that shares a name with its principal city is New York, and the only other state to do so is my home state of Oklahoma, and even there, the name of the city came after the name of the territory. And yes, other states have cities named after their state, but the state name came first AND those cities are usually minor cities.

What do you all think?
 
Pretty similar to you, like most Turtledove books it was a good concept that wore thin as the series went on thanks to poor characters, clunky writing, and historical parallelism.
 
I read OPENING ATLANTIS a few years ago (possibly even at the time of it's initial release), liked it and yet failed to be addicted; then I reread the novel just last year, and was well & truly hooked (To the point where I purchased & read both the other two book in the series proper AND Atlantis and Other Places).

Still, even now I could not tell you why one fell so hard, so fast (Certainly the notion of a mid-Atlantic island continent with unique wildlife was a strong draw; the Holmesian connection and a chance to see the United States alongside a North America where the British crown beat the rebels - more on this later - cannot be called a turn-off either); perhaps the sheer brevity of this series - by Turtledove standards - played a part.

In any case I can only apologise for not having replied to this thread more punctually; I do enjoy thinking about and discussing the UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS setting (I use that name as a shorthand for the whole setting because it's more specific than just ATLANTIS, given how fiction has dipped into the waters above & around that sunken city of legend).
 
I have never read the Atlantis series but i did see and read the information on the series on the fandom Wikipedia of the series and it made me really interested in the Atlantis series and I'm considering buying it sometime starting with the first book of course and so would you recommend the book to me.
 
Last edited:
On Opening Atlantis - probably my overall favorite, as I really enjoy the multiple viewpoints across the centuries through the original settlers and then their descendants. The initial discovery and settlement stories were fun, as was the second section with the Pirates of Avalon Bay - it also sets up for great future lore for Atlanteans down the road, as well as exploring how wide the Radcliff/Radcliffe clan becomes in English-speaking Atlantis. Part three, with the parallel war with French Atlantis mirroring the OTL French & Indian War was okay and different enough to be unique (and also understandable since HT has to look at getting the books sold, and one of his schticks has been to have thing feel similar enough to be familiar to those less initiated in AH).

OPENING ATLANTIS is most definantely a great deal of good fun in one bite-sized package; my only real quibble is that we have stories from the 15th, 17th & 18th centuries and yet none from the 16th - given the 1500s AD saw the Reformation set to work on both Europe as a whole and England in particular, as well as the Spanish acquisition of the New World, those famously naughty Tudors ruling England, the Wars of Religion in France, as well as the struggle between Protestant England & Catholic Spain (amongst other steps leading Humanity away from the Middle Ages and into the Early Modern period) that did so much to define the New World as we know it, it's a little sad Professor Turtledove didn't think up a story for the era.

Especially given that areas of English Atlantis explicitly remained Catholic long after the Mother Country was well and truly Protestant; the fact those areas are mostly right on the border with French Atlantis makes this especially interesting (One can imagine a story showing the viewpoint of French Atlantis as it strives to avoid being caught in the crossfire between the Protestant Revolution in English Atlantis and the Counter-Reformation in Spanish Atlantis; I'd bet cash money that Avalon began it's journey towards becoming a Pirate Haven at this time, if only because Spain would have been keen as mustard to acquire ports that would allow them to secure their Terranovan territories and make serious inroads on Atlantis).


On The United States of Atlantis - definitely my least favorite. Some of this is just personal taste - I'm not a big military history guy so stories that are almost entirely military in their scope are a drag for me. I also disliked just HOW similar the war for Atlantean independence paralleled the OTL American war. I know it wasn't a carbon copy, and I realize why HT goes in for parallelism, but it was still a slog for me.

The great failing of this book is that, where OPENING ATLANTIS/NOUVEAU REDON gave us a view of both sides (and a somewhat more balanced view of the war), with THE UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS we're stuck with Victor Radcliff, who is a jerk - which is, in all fairness, text (even if the angle that he's not actually George Washington, just a similarly gifted man who found himself in much the same situation fails to be as clearly articulated as it could be) - and therefore obliged to take his word for everything (Which makes our picture of developments in Atlantis far from complete, except insofar as it is clearly one-sided).

I think that giving us a British/Atlantean Royalist point of view character, one focussed more on the political and social situation, would have helped 'balance the ticket' and make this a more well-rounded book (My personal pick for this viewpoint character would be Richard Cawthorne, Royal Governor of Freetown and diehard Loyalist; given his family connection to the local Ben Franklin and the fact that Freetown changed hands at least twice during the War for Atlantean Independence, there's a lot of room for Governor Cawthorne's view of the conflict being more a tragedy of brother against brother, father against son - something that gives us an even stronger sense of the price paid for Freedom and the equally high price of True Loyalty).

Also, I'm disappointed that Professor Turtledove didn't have the nerve to show Blaise Black stick to his principles while Victor Radcliff was committing adultery (It's not a good look that the former, a character defined by his undying hatred of slavery, appears to have shrugged and said "I'm a man, I can't help it" when offered a run at Lafayette's very own flock of captive 'turtledoves' - all to make Radcliffe look a little less contemptible).



On Liberating Atlantis - This was also really a fun story. For one, I like how, although there is a vague bit of parallelism with the slavery issue leading to violence around the time of the OTL American Civil War, having it be a slave uprising and the slaves liberating themselves (no "white savior," Lincoln-breaking-the-chains narrative afterward here) really makes the story unique. In addition, I enjoyed seeing the way in which Atlantis's government operates with the two Co-Consul system, with all the unforeseen complications playing out as well.

I definitely agree that this novel clearly excels THE UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS (and again I have to say that having a reasonable number of viewpoints on this particular piece of history does help lend interest, along with depth & a little complexity); I'm also more than a little pleased to suspect that Atlantis' somewhat ramshackle executive is proof that while Victor Radcliffe excels George Washington as a general in the field, he most certainly failed to equal Mr Washington's achievements as a practical politician (I wonder if, being an island nation, the Atlantean system was able to insulate itself against the sort of external factors driving the adoption of the USA's much stronger executive?).

Reading THE SCARLET BAND (Sherlock Holmes ... in ATLANTIS!) made me wonder if the Great Insurrection that we see in LIBERATING ATLANTIS was only the opening blast of a 'Time of Troubles' for the Grand Island; I'd be surprised if the sudden, drastic change in the status of (now-ex) slaves and bad blood left over from the open warfare that brought it about (not to mention the presumably-loud cries for improvements to the Consular system that so spectacularly failed to defend the established order) didn't trigger a sort of Reconstruction-on-Steroids (though Holmes' adventure across the United States at least suggests that USA didn't do too badly, even if that were the case).



Overall, I find that the continent of Atlantis itself was well thought out, with the different flora and fauna (honkers!) a big plus. I did feel like I was left wanting when it came to developments in the wider world. You didn't even need that much detail, just the odd line or paragraph mentioned in passing about events elsewhere - especially Terra Nova. We know that English settlements rose up there for a second time in 1809, but I don't think the outcome was ever disclosed, to say nothing of what other colonial powers had settlements, or where.

For the record, ATLANTIS & OTHER PLACES/The Scarlet Band mentions the existence of a 'Dominion of Ontario' that at one point withstood the attentions of Atlantean ... it was either 'Freebooters' or 'Buccaneers' ... and remains a loyal part of the British Empire under Queen Victoria (much to the contempt of an Atlantean policeman, when he is reminded of its existence); I suspect this is as strong a hint as we're ever likely to receive that the second Revolt of British Terranova was no more successful than the '76.

However, 'Audubon in Atlantis' (earlier in the same book and set in a year somewhat earlier in the 19th Century) mentions the existence of an English-speaking power slowly reshaping previously-French Terranova in it's own image; while this might be the nascent Dominion of Ontario, I rather like the idea that there's a 'United States of Louisiana' which could allow us a glimpse of how the Republic of Texas might have interacted with the Canadas, had the two territories not been divided by the United States of America.


In all honesty, I would have loved to get more views of the wider world than the series allows us (even though I'm glad Mr Turtledove was able to tell his story and avoid the sort of bloat that so badly affected his SOUTHERN VICTORY novels); I've been toying with the idea of a 'Benjamin Franklin as Sherlock Holmes' story showing Victor Radcliffe pay the visit of England hinted at in THE UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS (A visit never explicitly mentioned, but made implicit by a few lines suggesting that Radcliffe has been able to visit the Old Country between the French & Atlantean War and the War for Atlantean Independence), a story that would at least allow us to glimpse how the existence of Atlantis has affected the history of Great Britain (If nothing else, Warwick the Kingmaker* being removed from the War of the Roses would have a major impact on the course of that history - or should have).

*Assuming, of course, that the exiled nobleman in question WAS the Earl of Warwick and not an opportunist (perhaps his kinsman Lord Fauconberg?) using that name & title.


Also, while I loved the place names that HT did for the cities in Atlantis, I found it almost infuriating that he just decided that all of the Atlantean states would just be named after the major cities in each state. Incredibly lazy.

On the other hand it is rather amusing to imagine the Atlantean Assembly adopting this as a somewhat short-sighted expedient to avoid Freetown and Conquer starting yet another blood feud over injudicious use of (or 'criminal failure' to employ) the proudly Anglophone 'Stourland' for the region defined by the River Stour - to which both cities have laid claim - and as another small hint that the United States of Atlantis didn't do quite as polished a job of putting their house in order as the United States of America.

I do firmly believe that, while the (known) States are officially named for their capital cities, there would be preexisting names for the regions in which they sit - and, given that one could fit at least thirteen states into that amount of territory - it's quite possible there are other States, not mentioned in the text, which were named for something other than a preexisting city (I'm thinking of territories erected away from the coastlands so dominated by the Big Cities).
 
I have never read the Atlantis series but i did see and read the information on the series on the fandom Wikipedia of the series and it made me really interested in the Atlantis series and I'm considering buying it sometime starting with the first book of course and so would you recommend the book to me.

The first book in this series is OPENING ATLANTIS - you should be able to purchase it on Amazon kindle and, as mentioned, it has something for everyone; it makes a fine introduction to the setting and a rather fair introduction to the works of Professor Turtledove as a whole. :)
 
The first book in this series is OPENING ATLANTIS - you should be able to purchase it on Amazon kindle and, as mentioned, it has something for everyone; it makes a fine introduction to the setting and a rather fair introduction to the works of Professor Turtledove as a whole. :)
Thanks for the recommendation, while at the moment I'm not able to get that book because I ain't got the money for it I will eventually get it cuz it sounds really cool and I'm interested in it so again thank you and have a good day.
 
I trust that you'll enjoy the novel no matter when you read it and hope that you'll be willing to share your thoughts about it when you have done so.:)
 
I was just ruminating on the United States of Atlantis today when it struck me that, since Atlantis has two consuls rather than a single president, it's quite possible that either Atlantean politicians very seldom appear on currency - because with two figureheads it would be harder to identify a single individual with national successes in the way the American presidential system encourages - or most Atlanteans who appear on money would do so as part of a duo, rather than alone (Perhaps with occasional exceptions made for the most outstanding & revered figures - it amuses me to imagine that Frederick Radcliff earned this honour, but that Victor Radcliff never quite managed to*).

*This is perhaps a little unfair, but I find it interesting to imagine Victor Radcliff as having an element of General Grant in his makeup; a much more successful battle commander than George Washington, no fool politically, but lacking the outstanding personal qualities that made Mr Washington "First in peace, first in War, first in the hearts of his countrymen" (This is, admittedly, because I dislike Mr Radcliff, though also because the lack of a strong central executive in the Atlantean system strongly suggests that there was nobody amongst the Founding Fathers trusted to occupy such a role).
 
Top